Graybeard Outdoors banner

New military sidearm?

4K views 75 replies 19 participants last post by  Argent11 
#1 ·
#2 ·
I was happy to see this, a friend of mine works at Sig. My girlfriend has a Sig P250 which is the hammer fired twin to the P320. Her gun is very accurate and fun to shoot.

Sent from my SM-S765C using Tapatalk
 
#3 ·
The 40 looks like a very well designed cartridge, the rim looks like there would be very little problem with extraction. Sure hate to see the 45 relegated to obscurity, so much history there.
The germans in ww2 knew if you heard the thompson you were facing a much more
formidable weapon than the 9 mm, survivability was much lower with a 45 wound.
 
#4 ·
That will likely be decided by the A team(US) and the B team (Europe) who test and determine which will be best for NATO. My grandson works within the A team, but you will know which one is chosen as soon as I will, because his work is classified. He used to share with Gramps some of his work in the arms industry when it wasn't classified, ...I rather miss those days. Now I get nothing. His work now requires a top secret clearance, and ever since his active duty days he clearly understands the obligations involved with a top secret clearance.
 
#5 ·
I am happy to see what I want to believe was a fair evaluation. I especially like the "modular" concept. This was first proposed by Stoner as an alternative to the Colt M16 (which he also designed). Stoner's design could be configured as pistol, rifle, machine gun etc. His design lost out to the M16, some say because the fix was in for Colt to win the contract.
 
#8 ·
It looks like they might be sticking with the 9:

"Two sources confirmed to Military.com that Sig submitted to the Army .40-caliber and 9mm pistols for consideration. One source said the Army ultimately selected the 9mm version."

Sent from my SM-S765C using Tapatalk
 
#9 ·
It looks like they might be sticking with the 9:

"Two sources confirmed to Military.com that Sig submitted to the Army .40-caliber and 9mm pistols for consideration. One source said the Army ultimately selected the 9mm version."

Sent from my SM-S765C using Tapatalk
That may be for weight restraints. but do you think they might have souped up the 9mm.

off topic; I recently bought my first 9mm and love it. S&W M&P shield 9mm
 
#12 ·
I don't think I've heard of that happening in a long time. I believe that was what brought on the "S" in the 92.
Beretta went to a stronger alloy frame. Early Glocks had a problem with the slides metal guide rails striping out of the polymer frames. But I can remember there was a problem with people using that Israeli sub machining gun ammo that was only meant for the UZI. But I haven't heard anymore about that in a very long time.
 
#14 ·
At it's best (a .44 Mag.) a handgun has to be "weak" or it couldn't be fired with one hand. Police learned decades ago that the .38 Special was/is a poor choice for life-death battles but few cops could handle the recoil of the hotter but still puny .357.

Our military allowed Europe's NATO wimps to dictate their 9 mm Parabellam (which is simply a high pressure .38 Special loaded with light weight bullets) and it's still a poor battle weapon. The 9mm autoloaders seem to be effective against most European cop targets who drop when hit with anything but it's proven to be largely ineffective on more determined combatants - like those in the sand box AND in VietNam. Given a choice, it seems most combat experienced GIs will pick a 1911/.45.

My belief is that when fighting for your life, the .40 cal is better than the 9mm and the .45 is still better. The .45 ACP is perhaps the best auto loader cartridge available. My (all steel) 1911A1 is loaded, cocked and locked; it sits on my bedside table along with 3 extra magazines and a three D cell Maglite flashlight. I once told a small group of males (as opposed to men) about that and the group's major mouth "lib" smugly asked me, "What are you afraid of Chester?" I said "What didn't you understand? It's a hundred year old .45 ACP, I fear NOTHING at all!"
 
#19 ·
After his deployments as Spec ops Marine, my grandson said the 9mm in mandatory hardball was not a real stopper. Still, I know nothing about the new handgun choice, or if it is anywhere near being tested (my grandson tests for NATO).. Personally, without HPs being allowed, I would suspect that a larger meplat would be desireable.
Lloyd is correct that only a very few use handguns in regular service, but Spec Ops do use them, and if you are in a position where you need a handgun..a reliable stopper is needed..but then, the various Spec Ops units often choose to use different than standard weapons.
Seals choose the Glock 19...perhaps they figure the extra rounds are worth more than a larger meplat. http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2016/01/06/glocks-n-seals/
 
#20 · (Edited)
Battle hand guns are a lot like parachutes; you'll probably never need one ... but, if you do, just once, and don't have one you'll never need it again. Like parachutes they can be big, awkward and heavy but little ones don't do much for you. If I expect to need a handgun I'd rather train with and carry something effective than something easy to carry and shoot but is inefficient; the intelligent philosophy of the "double tap" is based on the 9mm. I'm not impressed with the idea of being able to miss 12 times and still have a few rounds left. I feel more confident in one solid hit with my .45 than two or three similar hits with speedy but light .38 caliber (9mm) autoloader bullets.

Everyone to his own choice but we all have to live or die - literally - with that choice. And remember that we aren't talking about sunny day range work here, gun fights can quickly turn into serious stuff.
 
#21 ·
I think I would still like to keep my 92s in 40 S&W. I don't like striker fired pistols, the 92 just like a 1911 has an exposed hammer.
And this new gun looks like it doesn't have a hammer either. Our Sheriffs dept had to get rid of the Glocks they had.
Deputy's were shooting themselves in the leg pulling one out of the holster with their fingers on the trigger.
And I've known one guy who injured himself with a Glock, and another one who killed himself.
 
#24 ·
NATO went with 124 over the common 115 9mm load, to use the higher pressure and turn it into higher ME, lower velocity, lighter recoil. It is really the optimal weight/pressure for the 9mm functionally. 124HPs would be maximizing the terminal efficiency of a 9mm, and in a full size service weapon, makes for a very deadly combination in the hands of most folks.


At the unit I just left, we had the last 12 match 1911s retained at a unit Armory in the Navy, and an authorized delivery of 45 ball. Every 3 months we'd get a new batch of tryout for the Pistol team, every one of them a combat veteran officer, multiple tours, from Army, Navy (EOD, Seals), Marines, and Air Force. One range session with the 45 (and the match M14s), they were giggling like kids. Three practice sessions later, 95% of them had switched back to M9s and M16s, most often stating that it was easier for them to be consistently accurate with 9mm and 5.56. These are not women, small children, or inexperienced shooters - to try out for the Pistol team, we were getting Infantry Company Commanders, MARSOC, etc. folks. It is, what it is.
 
#28 ·
The 9mm or the 398+P with almost any Hornady or other expanding point slugs such as Hydro-shocks can be very effective... ..But sadly, the military can't legally use them.
I must admit that my first experience with handgun was those many years ago when I was a young lad of 18 and what our Plt Sgt called "185 pounds of romping, stomping tanker **** " Long guns, I had much experience..but handguns were new to me. Way back then, jus 10 years post WW2, we had the 1911..leftovers from the war. Worn and weary..they were made by various makers..Colt, Sperry, Remington-Rand..mine was made by Singer..yes, the sewing machine co.
I didn't score as I would have liked with it, and although I had a cross chest carry holster, I decided It wouldn't plan on it being my primary weapon if I ever got smoked out. We also had in the tank for each crew member, an M1 carbine and an M3 "grease gun", (a .45 ACP machine pistol) . Depending upon the proximity of the enemy, I would choose either the M1 or the M3.
 
#26 · (Edited)
While match 1911s shoot very well on a range there is no question the 9s will do as well ... on paper.

Fifty three years ago my wife was a still young and 115 pretty pounds. I had a surplus 1911 and she bought me a nearly new S&W 29 6". We made a few trips to my club range (Titusville Rifle and Pistol Club, west of Mims, FL) where she occasionally shot with me. We used factory Winchester 240 gr full power .44 mags and club surplus .45 ACP FMJ GI ball; they were first handguns or center fire she had ever shot, save a .410 shotgun. First time out, she shot both handguns pretty good two handed; I also had to use two hands to beat her and save face! Meaning, I can't be much concerned about sarcastic comments over either cartridge requiring "real men" to shoot well or that they require inordinate time to become proficient with.

Like me, momma's gotten old - on the outside - and now her favorite is .357 full power loads from her own 6" Ruger BlackHawk.
 
#29 ·
I had M3s (and 1911s) in my inventory when I took over my company armory in '88. Loved that old gun, and think we could probably hand those out to a lot of folks who are currently issued an M4 or M9. Combat handgun skills are different than SD/HD/CCW folks ... one shot one kill with a pistol is for the movies. Anyone drawing a pistol is putting rounds on target until it stops moving, then proceeding to the next target. Tight groups, reliable feed, high capacity trump everything else in that environment - which makes a strong argument for a submachine gun over a pistol in many cases.


I've seen formal proposals put forward that we really need to drop handguns all together, and switch to PDWs ... and idea with merit honestly. But the Army bought the SIG, and so the rest of us will have to do likewise.
 
#30 ·
Yup I chuckle at the guys that think a ball 45 is a giant step up in killing power over a ball 9mm. Bottom line is you couldn't pay me to go deer hunting with ball 45 and deer don't shoot back. People here I think tend to make recommendations on the fact that its a caliber they like. They forget that most of the guys carrying handguns in the service never put there hands on one before they joined and there only skill level was what they acquired in a few qual shoots and a few hundred rounds in boot camp


Some here also seem to forget that many of a special service soldiers who can carry a 45 or even a 40 still prefer the 9mm. Id bet they know that 18 rounds of 9mm ammo that wont blow someone off there feet might be preferred to 7 rounds of 45 acp that wont blow someone off there feet.


One of the main reasons or country switched to the 9mm is that the "New Army" isn't full of good old boys who grew up putting meat on the family table. Its full of kids that about the only thing they used there fingers for is tapping on a phone and playing video games.


Like ive said I love all three of them. I own multiples of 9s 40s and 45s and shoot them all. I probably these days prefer the 9s. There as accurate, cost less to load and theres no recoil. Just plain fun to shoot. Loaded properly I sure don't feel naked carrying one. If I was going into battle tomorrow and could choose my handgun (for a back up gun) It would probably be a glock 19. I have a 23 too and its one of my favorites but the 19 is going to do the same thing in the same compact package and allow me for the same weight and size to have a few more rounds on tap. I would use it the same as a 45 knowing that I cant shoot someone once and turn away confident in the fact that that awesome 45 killed him instantly. Like with any handgun you pump as many rounds as you can into your target until its stops wiggling.


Id much prefer my 10mm glock 20 over any battle gun but ammo isn't supported by our military. but loaded to almost 1300 fps with a 200 grain jacketed flat point it would outclass them all. But then again few could master them. I think team nelsons last statement holds some merit. Other then security forces handguns for the most part aren't great battle weapons in any fourm. they give them to officers and sergeants more out of tradition then for any practical reason. For the weight of a 92 and a few clips they could carry a pile more 5.56 ammo. Or for that matter something like a mac 10.
I had M3s (and 1911s) in my inventory when I took over my company armory in '88. Loved that old gun, and think we could probably hand those out to a lot of folks who are currently issued an M4 or M9. Combat handgun skills are different than SD/HD/CCW folks ... one shot one kill with a pistol is for the movies. Anyone drawing a pistol is putting rounds on target until it stops moving, then proceeding to the next target. Tight groups, reliable feed, high capacity trump everything else in that environment - which makes a strong argument for a submachine gun over a pistol in many cases.


I've seen formal proposals put forward that we really need to drop handguns all together, and switch to PDWs ... and idea with merit honestly. But the Army bought the SIG, and so the rest of us will have to do likewise.
 
#31 ·
Lloyd, no one but you has suggested a .45 anything will blow anyone off his feet no matter where he's hit.

If the goal of arming the military before sending them into gun fights is to give them something that won't tear up their frail girly hands too bad they should be issued .22 rf rifles and handguns. Yes, it would take a bit more practice to learn to shoot as well with a larger caliber but it would only add maybe an extra day in boot camp to become equally competent with a .45, not months. Truth is, and contrary to common legend, the recoil of military .45 ACP ball ammo is not fearsome.

Experience in the field has forced military 9mm hard ball ammo to be heavier than originally loaded and loaded hotter; that extra bullet weight has significantly decreased velocity and the increased pressure has increased recoil. The difference between 9mm/.45 recoil is significantly less than is often supposed.

Our military went to "spray and pray" shooting with the introduction of the M1 Garand in 1942 but it's been proven in the field that you can't shoot and miss enough to win a gun fight. Same as in 1776, it's hits that count on a battlefield and gaining combat level accuracy at handgun ranges with a 1911 Colt is only a little more demanding than with a 92 Beretta.

For whatever it's worth to anyone thinking about it, understand that any .45 hit starts as large as a 9mm even after excellent 9mm hollowpoints have fully expanded, and .45's usually have almost twice the mass to insure good penetration.

Deer have been killed with a .22 rf but that's a bad choice. I would feel silly about deer hunting with a 9 mm or even a .45 ACP - sure, it can be done but that's not what they are expected to be used for. Most of us have rifles for that kind of work.
 
#36 ·
never said anyone here stated that. But its an opinion that gets thrown around a lot. Id bet you've heard it yourself on occasion.


the goal of our military is putting weapons in the hands of our troops that are the most effective. every weapons system has compormises. Even the f18. Like I said you have to look at the modern military. Its not just strapping young men who grew up putting meat on the family take like it was in ww2. Its city boys and like it or not even girls in combat. You want to arm a girl with a bar or a 10lb m1 grand. Do you want to arm some kid from ny city with one that's only firearm experience is on his video games?


As to spray and pray in ww2 we had soldiers armed with thompsons, bars, full auto m1 carbines ect. This isn't something new. Id bet the hit to kill ratio when soldiers had m1 grand's wasn't one bit better then it is today with an m16. Id bet if you went and ask the men and women that actually have to go into combat if they would like to trade there AR for a MI you would have to visit MANY bases to find just one volunteer.


I agree with your extra day in boot camp but I personaly think it should be at least a week. Bottom line is an accurate shot with a 5.56 or 9mm is a lot more effective then a miss or a bullet in the arm with a 45 acp or 06. You made the point yourself. Neither the 45 or the 9 are stoppers or even a caliber a sane man would select to shoot a deer. Neither are a main line battle implement for the average soldier. there for the most part carried by officers and sergeants and military police. For the most part a back up weapon and one shot very little. Its the reason I would guess that many navy seals select it. Its a last ditch gun to get them out of a bad situation and they want more then 7 rounds to do it. they know that a properly placed 9mm will take most of the fight out of someone. Now were talking Navy seals that are fine with a 9mm. Who am I to pretend to be so intelligent and gun savoy that they should value my opinion over what has proven to work for them.


Nope the recoil isn't fierce in a 45 but its substainaly more then a 9mm. Even my glock 43 has less recoil then a full sized 45s. Ive own 7 9mms right now and 6 45acps and have yet to find a 45 that kicks less then a 9mm without downloading it. that is just common sense and physics. Id like to see you tell a Navy seal that he shoots a 9 because he has girly hands that might get hurt.


then we get into one of the main reasons we use the 9mm. Its a nato appoved round so theoretically if your shooting and run out of ammo anyone on the battle field can give you some. Is it true in practice. I doubt it because like I said short of a navy seal id bet there isn't a dozen enemy soldiers shot with a handgun in a year. Bottom line is throwing a big pile of 45 acps or 40 sw at our existing troups is going to do nothing toward making them more effective soldiers. IF anything its going to adversely effect there combat accuracy.


If we had to money to give every trooper a couple weeks training with one so that they could get used to it maybe. But we know that sure isn't happening and bottom line is if you gave them that same 2 weeks and stayed with the high capacity 9s you still wouldn't see any improvement in battle over what we already use. You say someone can get competent in an extra day? I say bs. You would have to already have them competent with a 9mm and there not. Adding something with more recoil into the mix sure isn't going to help. It took me weeks of going to the range with my wife just to get her to the point she wasn't afraid of her 9mm! I shoot 475 and 500 linebaughs but am not so arrogant as to say anyone with a 44 mag can step up to a 500 and master it in a day! First youd have to find someone competent with a 44 and in my experience that's about 1 out of 50 that claim to be. Recoil matters and matters ALOT to an inexperienced handgunner or rifle shooter for that matter.


Sorry but no matter what your opinion is your not going to see a comeback of the 45acp any sooner then your going to see us go back to an 06 for a battle rifle. WHY? because the goal of our military is to put the weapon in the hands of our troops that is most effective across the line for all of our troops big, small, male or female. Not the one that you or I like. Ill leave those choices to the people fighting. Not the guys like you and I that our most dangerous target is a steel plate.
Lloyd, no one but you has suggested a .45 anything will blow anyone off his feet no matter where he's hit.

If the goal of arming the military before sending them into gun fights is to give them something that won't tear up their frail girly hands too bad they should be issued .22 rf rifles and handguns. Yes, it would take a bit more practice to learn to shoot as well with a larger caliber but it would only add maybe an extra day in boot camp to become equally competent with a .45, not months. Truth is, and contrary to common legend, the recoil of military .45 ACP ball ammo is not fearsome.

Experience in the field has forced military 9mm hard ball ammo to be heavier than originally loaded and loaded hotter; that extra bullet weight has significantly decreased velocity and the increased pressure has increased recoil. The difference between 9mm/.45 recoil is significantly less than is often supposed.

Our military went to "spray and pray" shooting with the introduction of the M1 Garand in 1942 but it's been proven in the field that you can't shoot and miss enough to win a gun fight. Same as in 1776, it's hits that count on a battlefield and gaining combat level accuracy at handgun ranges with a 1911 Colt is only a little more demanding than with a 92 Beretta.

For whatever it's worth to anyone thinking about it, understand that any .45 hit starts as large as a 9mm even after excellent 9mm hollowpoints have fully expanded, and .45's usually have almost twice the mass to insure good penetration.

Deer have been killed with a .22 rf but that's a bad choice. I would feel silly about deer hunting with a 9 mm or even a .45 ACP - sure, it can be done but that's not what they are expected to be used for. Most of us have rifles for that kind of work.
 
#33 · (Edited)
I can't speak to the Army, but I know in the Marine Corps, weapons selection requirements are overseen by Gunners, Infantry Warrant Officers, most of whom are combat veterans who opted to become technical experts in tactical weapons. These are guys who have put millions of rounds down range, in kinetic and static environments, through all sort of different weapons, and have been instructors in their use and employment. If they think the 9mm works, there's a reason, and its probably not due to limp wristed shooters.


And yes the DOD now practices fire superiority by volume, but that is still regulated by precision. Again, I can only speak to the Marine Corps, but we train to the highest of standards, using quality weapons, ammo and optics, and we primarily shoot on single-fire; 3 round burst is reserved for special events, and we don't have select fire option on the A4 or M4 issued. This is a far cry from spray and pray, but its also not single shot across a grassy field. This is using the tool to accomplish the desired end state. Yeah, if you've never been in, or you haven't been in for a few years, it probably doesn't make sense. A lot has changed for me since I first joined in 87, and I've had to adapt to the new marksmanship programs. I thought switching to all optics instead of iron sights was sacrilege, but now I'm putting microdots on my personal handguns. Combat evolves, we evolve with it.
 
#37 ·
Good post. Seems its the civilians and mostly non vets that think we should change not the men using them or those who have.
I can't speak to the Army, but I know in the Marine Corps, weapons selection requirements are overseen by Gunners, Infantry Warrant Officers, most of whom are combat veterans who opted to become technical experts in tactical weapons. These are guys who have put millions of rounds down range, in kinetic and static environments, through all sort of different weapons, and have been instructors in their use and employment. If they think the 9mm works, there's a reason, and its probably not due to limp wristed shooters.


And yes the DOD now practices fire superiority by volume, but that is still regulated by precision. Again, I can only speak to the Marine Corps, but we train to the highest of standards, using quality weapons, ammo and optics, and we primarily shoot on single-fire; 3 round burst is reserved for special events, and we don't have select fire option on the A4 or M4 issued. This is a far cry from spray and pray, but its also not single shot across a grassy field. This is using the tool to accomplish the desired end state. Yeah, if you've never been in, or you haven't been in for a few years, it probably doesn't make sense. A lot has changed for me since I first joined in 87, and I've had to adapt to the new marksmanship programs. I thought switching to all optics instead of iron sights was sacrilege, but now I'm putting microdots on my personal handguns. Combat evolves, we evolve with it.
 
#41 ·
Lloyd - "You say someone can get competent in an extra day? I say bs."

I say bs to what you say I said because I didn't say that at all. I said an extra day of training with a .45 should obtain an equal level of competency ... and I stand by that.

I also said the difference in recoil between military ball ammo in the 1911 and 92 is small ... and I stand by that.

You easily switched from what YOU said about modern girly men's fear of recoil and then try to make an issue about seals as if I had said it all - which I didn't. What's with that? Fact is, I've been suggesting that, unlike you, I don't believe modern city men - or women/girls, like my own wife, daughters and grand daughters - are all that wimpy!

The rest of your essay misses what I said about equally. I've said what I believe and will now let it stand on it's own no matter how you twist it to make your points.

The single reason the modern muscular .40/10mm handgun rounds exist is because the FBI recognized the terminal deficiencies of the 9mm. You may argue with them if you wish but I just don't care. :)
 
#44 · (Edited)
looks like there a bit lonely in there choice and considering it was 27 years ago id bet if the modern 9mm ammo would have been available they wouldn't have wasted there money either and it looks like the fbi is even split between the 9 and 40 and very few federal agency use 45acps for anything anymore. So theres a few more for you to argue with that know less then you:tango_face_wink:






Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) - Agent
Standard handgun is the 9mm SIG-Sauer P228. Longarms include the 9mm H&K MP5A4SF semi-automatic carbine and the 9mm H&K MP5A5 submachine gun.

US Coast Guard - Coast Guard Officer
The Coast Guard switched from the military standard 9mm Beretta M9 (Model 92F) to the 9mm SIG-Sauer P226 pistol sometime in the late 1980s. Other small arms include the 5.56mm Colt M16A2 burst-fire rifle and 12-gauge Mossberg M590 MARINER shotgun.

US Customs Service - Enforcement Branch
The officers from the Enforcement Branch pack 9mm S&W Model 6906 pistols, 9mm MP5A5 burst-fire carbines, 5.56mm Steyr AUG A1 burst-fire rifles, 7.62mm Remington Model 700 sniper rifles and 12-gauge Remington Model 870P shotguns. The .38 Special S&W Model 60 CHIEF'S SPECIAL revolver is issued as back-up weapon.

US Department of Agriculture
Adopted the 9mm SIG-Sauer P228 pistol.

US Department of Energy - Nuclear Security Officer
These officers carry 9mm Glock 17 pistols, and a 5.56mm Colt CAR-15A2 Model 6530 semi-automatic carbine or 12-gauge Remington Model 870P shotgun.

DEA - Agent
The DEA issues the 9mm SIG-Sauer P228 pistol, 9mm Colt CAR-15 Model 635 submachine gun, 5.56mm Colt M16A2 burst-fire rifle and 12-gauge Remington Model 870P shotgun.

Federal Sky Marshals
Issue sidearm is the 9mm SIG-Sauer P228
FBI - Special Agent
The FBI issued .38 Special S&W Model 13 revolvers until the late 1980s. Within certain limits, agents were allowed to purchase their own semi-automatic handguns. This situation was finally seen as no longer adequate, and some 9mm SIG-Sauer P226 and 9mm S&W Model 5946 pistols were purchased in 1988. After the infamous Miami Shootout, demand for a 10mm Auto weapon arose. In 1991, the Bureau got 12,000 copies of the 10mm Auto S&W Model 1076, which was especially designed for the FBI. However, the gun turned out to be a complete failure, and it was dropped after only a very short time. In 1993 the 9mm SIG-Sauer P228 became the official sidearm of the FBI. It in turn was replaced as the issue weapon by the .40 Glock 22 and 23 pistols in the late 1990s. The .40 Glock 27 was authorised as off-duty/back-up gun. Note that the new guns are issued to NEW classes of agents. Older agents are allowed to stick to the guns they already have. Since 1989, the FBI has issued 9mm H&K MP5A4SF semi-automatic carbines. This is identical to the MP5A4 submachine gun, except for the fact that it is NOT capable of auto-fire. The shotgun is the Scattergun Technologies TACTICAL RESPONSE Model 90102 FBI, a variant of the 12-gauge Remington Model 870P.

FBI - Regional SWAT
These agents are trained by the HRT, and in the end similarily equipped. Most use a customised .45ACP Colt M1911A1 pistol, as well as 9mm H&K MP5A2, MP5A3 and MP5SD3 submachine guns, 5.56mm Colt M16A2 burst-fire rifles, 7.62mm Remington M40A1 sniper rifles, .50BMG McMillan Model 87 sniper rifles and 12-gauge Scattergun Technologies TACTICAL RESPONSE Model 90102 FBI shotguns.

FBI - HRT
For some time, the HRT used both 9mm SIG-Sauer P226 pistols and .45ACP LeBaer BUREAU pistols built on Para-Ordnance frames. But in late 1998, it adopted the .45ACP Springfield BUREAU Model, a heavily customised M1911A1. This is reported to be extremely accurate, while still as reliable as all the M1911A1s. The HRT also uses the 9mm H&K MP5SD5 submachine gun, 10mm Auto H&K MP5/10A3 submachine gun, 5.56mm H&K HK33A2 assault rifle, 7.62mm H&K PSG1 sniper rifle, 7.62mm Remington M40A1 sniper rifle, .50BMG Barrett M82A1 sniper rifle and 12-gauge Scattergun Technologies TACTICAL RESPONSE Model 90102 FBI shotgun.

INS/Border Patrol - Special Agent
The issue sidearm is the .40S&W Beretta Model 96D BRIGADIER. Also carried are the 5.56mm Ruger MINI-14 semi-automatic rifle and the 12-gauge Scattergun Technologies TACTICAL RESPONSE Model 90121 BORDER PATROL shotgun, a modified Remington Model 870P.

IRS - Special Agent
These carry 9mm SIG-Sauer P228 pistols.

US Marshals Service - Agent
The issue sidearm is the 9mm Glock 19.

US Marshals Service - SOG
These guys pack 9mm Glock 19, 9mm Beretta Model 92F pistols or .45ACP S&W Model 645 pistols, 9mm Colt CAR-15 Model 635 submachine guns, 5.56mm Colt CAR-15A2 Model 723 assault carbines, 5.56mm Colt M16A2 burst-fire rifles, 7.62mm Remington M24 sniper rifles and 12-gauge Ithaca Model 37 shotguns.

NASA Security (at the JFK Space Center)
Armed with 9mm Glock 17 pistols and 9mm H&K MP5A3 submachine guns.

National Park Service
Issue sidearm is the 9mm H&K P7M13 pistol. Also carried is the 5.56mm Ruger MINI-14 semi-automatic rifle. A shotgun is doubtless also in service.

US Naval Investigative Service (NIS) Special Agent
The standard weapon used to be the .357 Magnum Ruger GS-32N revolver, but is now the 9mm SIG-Sauer M11 (P228). Other weapons include the 9mm IMI UZI and MINI-UZI submachine guns, the 5.56mm Colt M16A1 assault rifle and 12-gauge Mossberg M590 MARINER shotgun.

Secret Service
Among the weapons issued are the .38 Special S&W Model 10 and S&W Model 19 revolvers, although the new official sidearm is the 9mm SIG-Sauer P228. Other weapons include the 9mm IMI UZI submachine gun, 5.56mm Colt M16A1 assault rifle, 7.62mm Remington Model 700 sniper rifle, 12-gauge Remington Model 870P shotgun and the .50BMG McMillan Model 87R sniper rifle.

Local Police Sidearms

Anchorage PD
Issue sidearm is the .45ACP Glock 21.

Honolulu PD
The officers on the beat have 9mm S&W Model 5906 pistols, plus 12-gauge Benelli M3 SUPER 90 shotguns in the cars.

Kansas City PD - Tactical Response Team
The TRT members pack .40S&W S&W Model 4026 pistols, 9mm H&K MP5A5SF semi-automatic carbines, 5.56mm H&K HK93A2 semi-automatic rifles, 7.62mm Remington Model 700 sniper rifles and 12-gauge Benelli M1 SUPER 90 shotguns.

LAPD - SWAT
They have Kimber TLE/II .45ACP Colt M1911A1 pistols, 9mm H&K MP5A5 submachine guns, 5.56mm CAR-15A2 (Model 723) assault carbines, 5.56mm H&K HK33K assault carbines, 7.62mm H&K PSG1 sniper rifles, 7.62mm Remington Model 700 sniper rifles and 12-gauge Benelli M1 SUPER 90 shotguns.

NYPD - Emergency Service Unit
The ESU have 9mm Glock 19 or 9mm Beretta Model 92D pistols, 9mm MP5A5N submachine guns, 5.56mm Ruger AC-556GF assault rifles, 7.62mm Remington M24 sniper rifles and 12-gauge Ithaca Model 37 shotguns.

Texas Department for Public Safety - The Texas Rangers
The Rangers have .357SIG SIG-Sauer P229 pistols, 5.56mm Ruger MINI-14 carbines and 12-gauge Remington Model 870P shotguns

Washington, DC, Metropolitan Police - Emergency Response Team
Issue the 9mm SIG-Sauer P226 pistol, 9mm Colt CAR-15 Model 635 submachine gun, 9mm IMI UZI submachine gun, 5.56mm Colt M16A2 burst-fire rifle, 7.62mm Remington Model 700 sniper rifle and 12-gauge Remington Model 870P shotgun.
Lloyd - "You say someone can get competent in an extra day? I say bs."

I say bs to what you say I said because I didn't say that at all. I said an extra day of training with a .45 should obtain an equal level of competency ... and I stand by that.

I also said the difference in recoil between military ball ammo in the 1911 and 92 is small ... and I stand by that.

You easily switched from what YOU said about modern girly men's fear of recoil and then try to make an issue about seals as if I had said it all - which I didn't. What's with that? Fact is, I've been suggesting that, unlike you, I don't believe modern city men - or women/girls, like my own wife, daughters and grand daughters - are all that wimpy!

The rest of your essay misses what I said about equally. I've said what I believe and will now let it stand on it's own no matter how you twist it to make your points.

The single reason the modern muscular .40/10mm handgun rounds exist is because the FBI recognized the terminal deficiencies of the 9mm. You may argue with them if you wish but I just don't care. :)
 
#43 ·
1911, 92s, heck I like them both, as well as an FN made High Power. Let's not forget those, or a good P38.
I grew up useing hammers on a pistol and old habits die hard. Unless it's a 22lr. But even with using that I still use my revolver.
Change out the cylinder and it's a 22mag.
 
#45 ·
heres some energy figures to think on. Yes energy isn't the end all in evaluating killing power but it does shot that there not all that far apart and although the 45 sure starts out bigger the 300 fps advantage the 9 has goes along way toward expansion. Bottom line though in neither use expanding bullets. Bottom line to is the wound cavity of any ball ammo isn't impressive be it 9mm or 45.


9mm: 115 Gr @ 1,250 FPS = 399 FT-LBS
.45 ACP: 230 Gr @ 845 FPS = 365 FT-LBS
 
#49 ·
9mm: 115 Gr @ 1,250 FPS = 399 FT-LBS
.45 ACP: 230 Gr @ 845 FPS = 365 FT-LBS

DOD M882 9mm is NATO spec, which looks more like:
124gr @ 1,185 FPS = 387 FT-LBS
... uses about 2,000 more SAMMI, for slower, less energy than 115 Luger but still above 45 with a few more grains. Very flat shooter, solid thump on the other end, but less muzzle rise for quicker return to target for subsequent shots (which matters more to DOD than other users).


Happily, I'm hearing that the push for expanding pistol ammo has moved out of the theoretical and may be coming to Mad Dog for serious proposal. Other NATO nations are of a similar mind, and we have the right administration in place to support it. This would give us some excellent options still at NATO spec.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top