Original sin? - Page 2 - Graybeard Outdoors
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 08:13 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brevard, NC
Posts: 10,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlecanoe View Post
Ah. But it's worth the head ache (in my experience).
Now pass the Bayer when you are finished. 🤓 lc
Luther, Augustine and Calvin; I stand in awe of the Godly dedication, humility, insight and intellect of those three men. I have learned much from them. But MY little brain gets over loaded when I try to read more than a few pages of their writings at a setting. I mean, a ten line paragraph is often one sentence! And, on occasion, one paragraph covers a full page! It's not uncommon for me to finish one of their sentences and have to look back to the beginning to get perspective.

I don't have a Phd, not even a BA. But I do have a DD214.

Common sense is an uncommon virtue
wncchester is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 08:45 PM
Senior Member
 
littlecanoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wncchester View Post
Luther, Augustine and Calvin; I stand in awe of the Godly dedication, humility, insight and intellect of those three men. I have learned much from them. But MY little brain gets over loaded when I try to read more than a few pages of their writings at a setting. I mean, a ten line paragraph is often one sentence! And, on occasion, one paragraph covers a full page! It's not uncommon for me to finish one of their sentences and have to look back to the beginning to get perspective.
"Verily verily".

I've gone through the posted section of Augustines book several times. There are men who in times past cast long shadows.

lc

Why does Doctrine matter? Doctrine connects us to the drama of the story of Christ in history.

The ultimate test of our spirituality is the measure of our amazement at the grace of God.

Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones
littlecanoe is offline  
post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 08:46 PM
Senior Member
 
littlecanoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,346
Default

Let's not forget the passage in Romans 7:7 through the end of the chapter when considering sin and its origin in our hearts.

lc

Why does Doctrine matter? Doctrine connects us to the drama of the story of Christ in history.

The ultimate test of our spirituality is the measure of our amazement at the grace of God.

Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones
littlecanoe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 01:56 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 7,836
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlecanoe View Post
Let's not forget the passage in Romans 7:7 through the end of the chapter when considering sin and its origin in our hearts.

lc

LC, is the relationship between law and sin causal? Does law cause sin? Does sin cause covetousness? Does anyone not have the law?


Weighty passage.

Held Fast
teamnelson is offline  
post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 03:34 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,785
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teamnelson View Post
What I posted is based in the wealth of scriptures that equivocates sin as desire, to include the events in the garden which began with desire. The ten commandants are all condemnations of desire: desiring another God, another person's property, another person's wife. Israel continually sinned before God because they desired other Gods, other laws, other things that God had prohibited. Christ taught that sin begins in the heart of man, and that to desire another's man wife is the same as adultery, and to desire another man's death is the same as murder. It is clear that Adam desired a happy relationship with his wife over a right relationship with God. James 1:14-15, desire is sin in the conceptual mode, i.e. fetal. We call a full term healthy delivered desire: Sin. But again Jesus equated the guilt of desire with the guilt of the act, acknowledging that desire is sin - they are two modes of the same thing. The third mode is death. Desire/Sin/Death are inseparable ... hence the Gospel that addresses all 3.

Therefore we can reasonably read the original sin as the desire for something God forbade, and a desire to be like God, that matured into an act of partaking, and matured further still into death (as scripture tells us that mankind died that day, spiritually in separation from God.)
If you so wish but had Adam refuted Eve, Man would not be enveloped in original sin as that is transferred by the male not the woman and Adam desired nothing.
Once sin was in the man, then as the Bible says their eyes were opened and they had feelings they did not have before they sinned, therefore; you cannot say they desired anything as their eyes were still closed before they sinned.
Adam's off-spring inherited the evil that their open eyes received.
You cannot say Adams was the same before as he was after or God's creation was not perfect and without sin.

RR
Bob Riebe is offline  
post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 08:16 AM
Senior Member
 
littlecanoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teamnelson View Post
LC, is the relationship between law and sin causal? Does law cause sin? Does sin cause covetousness? Does anyone not have the law?


Weighty passage.
As I understand the law, it simply reveals our sin, exposing that we, by nature, do not seek righteousness no matter how righteous we believe ourselves to be. So the law is not causal but revealing. The law exposes the covetousness that is the root cause of all sin. It is first a matter of the heart. Action follows. I appreciate that Paul looked back at all of the law and noted that he first coveted before sinning in breaking the law against God and neighbor.

lc

Why does Doctrine matter? Doctrine connects us to the drama of the story of Christ in history.

The ultimate test of our spirituality is the measure of our amazement at the grace of God.

Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones
littlecanoe is offline  
post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 02:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brevard, NC
Posts: 10,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlecanoe View Post
I've gone through the posted section of Augustines book several times. There are men who in times past cast long shadows. lc
They still do. Many people argue "my denomination teaches thus and so" without a clue why, how and from who - and at what price - that missing truth was recovered from erroneous teachings of the dominate "Church".

I don't have a Phd, not even a BA. But I do have a DD214.

Common sense is an uncommon virtue
wncchester is offline  
post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 06:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 7,836
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlecanoe View Post
As I understand the law, it simply reveals our sin, exposing that we, by nature, do not seek righteousness no matter how righteous we believe ourselves to be. So the law is not causal but revealing. The law exposes the covetousness that is the root cause of all sin. It is first a matter of the heart. Action follows. I appreciate that Paul looked back at all of the law and noted that he first coveted before sinning in breaking the law against God and neighbor.

lc

Indeed; scientists conduct root cause analysis, philosophers and theologians ask what is the ultimate essence, moral philosophers ask meta-questions ... all of these are acknowledgements that we must first get to the foundation - the level beneath which there are no more levels - to the primary, before we can understand the secondary and tertiary items which are contingent on the primary. We do this instinctively as children when we ask Why? A recent trend in business studies is to ask the 5 whys. It would then seem natural for Christians, particularly when we possess the revealed Word of God in written and living form, to seek to know the why behind our actions, and to get to the root of sin. All too often we are content to talk about the fruit of sin, as if its sin, because that is where legalism lives and breathes. Its lazy Christianity. The law was given so that we might do our own root cause analysis and realize the depth of sin in the soil of our hearts, from root to fruit. We don't need an axe to cut off offending branches, we need a shovel to dig every last fiber of the root structure out. The Genesis account becomes even more brilliant when you consider the original sin began long before the fruit was eaten.

Held Fast
teamnelson is offline  
post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 07:30 AM
Senior Member
 
littlecanoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wncchester View Post
They still do. Many people argue "my denomination teaches thus and so" without a clue why, how and from who - and at what price - that missing truth was recovered from erroneous teachings of the dominate "Church".
My experience is that this is an ongoing error. SUBDJOE used to point out all of the new denominations that have come along since the Awakening and revivalist movements. He was right in noting that. New denominations and new theology/orthodoxy of the last 200 plus years has added nothing to orthodox Christian theology. These denominations have only watered down theology and given a thin view of God and His mercy and grace. There is nothing new under the sun but neo-Christianity has and is trying to prove that wrong.

While not original sin definitely acts of willful sin.

lc

Why does Doctrine matter? Doctrine connects us to the drama of the story of Christ in history.

The ultimate test of our spirituality is the measure of our amazement at the grace of God.

Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones
littlecanoe is offline  
post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 07:51 AM
Senior Member
 
littlecanoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teamnelson View Post
Indeed; scientists conduct root cause analysis, philosophers and theologians ask what is the ultimate essence, moral philosophers ask meta-questions ... It would then seem natural for Christians, particularly when we possess the revealed Word of God in written and living form, to seek to know the why behind our actions, and to get to the root of sin. All too often we are content to talk about the fruit of sin, as if its sin, because that is where legalism lives and breathes. Its lazy Christianity. The law was given so that we might do our own root cause analysis and realize the depth of sin in the soil of our hearts, from root to fruit. We don't need an axe to cut off offending branches, we need a shovel to dig every last fiber of the root structure out. The Genesis account becomes even more brilliant when you consider the original sin began long before the fruit was eaten.
And only One can remedy this delimma. Over the last several years this has been at the root of my searching. I'm filtering through the generations of the reformation trying to grasp more of the whole of what happened. A pleasant surprise is to find the simplicity with which Luther looked at the human condition. I appreciate the focus of the Sunday corporate worship. It is not a meeting to focus on the feelings of the congregant.

The primary purpose of the service is not to worship God in a modern conceptualization. The focus is God himself. God coming to his people and bringing his good gifts to them through word and sacrament. God's voice is the first voice. The congregants response is the second voice and responds in thanksgiving and praise once the first voice has spoken.

We have been taught that our voice is the first voice. We go to do something for God when in actuality we go so that God can bring Christ and the Gospel to us and nourish our souls. We may feel emotion or we may sit there quietly in contemplation. It is not about what we feel but the truth of God and his promises.

So, even in worship, in our attempts to worship God, we can look at the fruit of our actions and see that they come from a motive of self fulfillment, emotional buzz, need for "whatever" and find ourselves looking at the fruit of our actions and practicing legalism.

Some will look at Luther and say "He promoted formality and ritual" and miss the greater message. Luther saw clearly that sin was rooted deep in the heart of man and that Christ alone, Christ and Christ crucified was the answer to all of the needs of the heart of man and inherent sin. Since the root was within, Christ was the only remedy.

A bit of a tangent but I wanted to tie those things together with your statement and demonstrate an area where we have deviated from Biblical orthodoxy to happily practice legalism.

lc

Why does Doctrine matter? Doctrine connects us to the drama of the story of Christ in history.

The ultimate test of our spirituality is the measure of our amazement at the grace of God.

Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones

Last edited by littlecanoe; 02-01-2017 at 08:52 AM.
littlecanoe is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Graybeard Outdoors forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome