Original sin? - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 01:50 AM Thread Starter
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Default Original sin?

What is/was "original sin? Are we still subject to original sin? Everyone or just some of us?
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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 08:11 AM
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This is my belief:Original sin is the belief that people are morally and ethically corrupted due to the disobedience of mankind's first parents to the revealed will of God. In the Bible, the first human transgression of God's command is described as the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden resulting fall of mankind, eating of the forbidden fruit. The doctrine of original sin holds that every person born into the world is tainted by the Fall such that all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and people are powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless saved by Jesus.


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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:37 AM
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St Augustine from the book "ARCHIRIDION".


CHAPTER VIII. The Plight of Man After the Fall

23. With this much said, within the necessary brevity of this kind of treatise, as to what we need to know about the causes of good and evil--enough to lead us in the way toward the Kingdom, where there will be life without death, truth without error, happiness without anxiety--we ought not to doubt in any way that the cause of everything pertaining to our good is nothing other than the bountiful goodness of God himself. The cause of evil is the defection of the will of a being who is mutably good from the Good which is immutable. This happened first in the case of the angels and, afterward, that of man.

24. This was the primal lapse of the rational creature, that is, his first privation of the good. In train of this there crept in, even without his willing it, ignorance of the right things to do and also an appetite for noxious things. And these brought along with them, as their companions, error and misery. When these two evils are felt to be imminent, the soul's motion in flight from them is called fear. Moreover, as the soul's appetites are satisfied by things harmful or at least inane--and as it fails to recognize the error of its ways--it falls victim to unwholesome pleasures or may even be exhilarated by vain joys. From these tainted springs of action--moved by the lash of appetite rather than a feeling of plenty--there flows out every kind of misery which is now the lot of rational natures.

25. Yet such a nature, even in its evil state, could not lose its appetite for blessedness. There are the evils that both men and angels have in common, for whose wickedness God hath condemned them in simple justice. But man has a unique penalty as well: he is also punished by the death of the body. God had indeed threatened man with death as penalty if he should sin. He endowed him with freedom of the will in order that he might rule him by rational command and deter him by the threat of death. He even placed him in the happiness of paradise in a sheltered nook of life in umbra vitae where, by being a good steward of righteousness, he would rise to better things.

26. From this state, after he had sinned, man was banished, and through his sin he subjected his descendants to the punishment of sin and damnation, for he had radically corrupted them, in himself, by his sinning. As a consequence of this, all those descended from him and his wife (who had prompted him to sin and who was condemned along with him at the same time)--all those born through carnal lust, on whom the same penalty is visited as for disobedience--all these entered into the inheritance of original sin. Through this involvement they were led, through divers errors and sufferings (along with the rebel angels, their corruptors and possessors and companions), to that final stage of punishment without end. "Thus by one man, sin entered into the world and death through sin; and thus death came upon all men, since all men have sinned."44 By "the world" in this passage the apostle is, of course, referring to the whole human race.

27. This, then, was the situation: the whole mass of the human race stood condemned, lying ruined and wallowing in evil, being plunged from evil into evil and, having joined causes with the angels who had sinned, it was paying the fully deserved penalty for impious desertion. Certainly the anger of God rests, in full justice, on the deeds that the wicked do freely in blind and unbridled lust; and it is manifest in whatever penalties they are called on to suffer, both openly and secretly. Yet the Creator's goodness does not cease to sustain life and vitality even in the evil angels, for were this sustenance withdrawn, they would simply cease to exist. As for mankind, although born of a corrupted and condemned stock, he still retains the power to form and animate his seed, to direct his members in their temporal order, to enliven his senses in their spatial relations, and to provide bodily nourishment. For God judged it better to bring good out of evil than not to permit any evil to exist. And if he had willed that there should be no reformation in the case of men, as there is none for the wicked angels, would it not have been just if the nature that deserted God and, through the evil use of his powers, trampled and transgressed the precepts of his Creator, which could have been easily kept--the same creature who stubbornly turned away from His Light and violated the image of the Creator in himself, who had in the evil use of his free will broken away from the wholesome discipline of God's law--would it not have been just if such a being had been abandoned by God wholly and forever and laid under the everlasting punishment which he deserved? Clearly God would have done this if he were only just and not also merciful and if he had not willed to show far more striking evidence of his mercy by pardoning some who were unworthy of it.

There is nothing in the world so damaged that it cannot be repaired by the hand of almighty God.

I encourage you to know this because without this certainty we should all of us be mad.

Poirot
"Appointment with Death"
By Agatha Christie

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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 09:50 PM
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Reading more than a page of Augustine, Luther or Calvin makes my head hurt!

Original sin was Lucifer's when he decided he would usurp God's position and obtain his worship. (That sounds like Islam's Allah dosn't it?):

Isa 14;13, 14 But you (Lucifer/Satan) said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars (angels) of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

The Christian doctrine of the "Original Sin" of mankind was Adam's in the Garden when he ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil after being told not to. Something in him changed at that point and his sinful nature has been passed onto each successive generation of mankind through Adam's seed (DNA?). Thus, it affects all of us from our conception.

Consider this: Babies don't have to learn how to have murderous rages, or to steal another kid's toy, or to hit anyone he's angry at, or to lie when caught doing something wrong; it's innate.

I don't have a Phd, not even a BA. But I do have a DD214.

Common sense is an uncommon virtue

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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 10:14 PM
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Ah. But it's worth the head ache (in my experience).
Now pass the Bayer when you are finished.

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There is nothing in the world so damaged that it cannot be repaired by the hand of almighty God.

I encourage you to know this because without this certainty we should all of us be mad.

Poirot
"Appointment with Death"
By Agatha Christie
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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 01:37 AM
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The original sin was not the act of disobedience, or the consequences of that disobedience but the heart behind that disobedience which desired something other than God, more than God, and was willing to reject God to get it.


That desire produced a fruit, an action, that manifested as partaking of forbidden fruit. That action produced a consequence whereby all of humanity, and in fact the entire created realm (i.e. universe, past, present and future) is corrupted as a result. Every child born, every plant raised, everything has suffered in some way not because of the act, but because of the desire.


Christ did not die on the cross to forgive the eating of an apple, or to alleviate any of the consequences of those actions. Christ died to reconcile a sinner who desired something other than God back into a relationship with God, and in order to do that he had to conquer sin, death, etc.


Yes, the heavy reading really does matter in that it allows us to proclaim what sin and evil really are. When we proclaim any lesser version of sin, we make room for man's pride to enter in and imagine that they are somehow less needy for the gospel than another. This is why those weighty minded preachers wrote laboriously, and in tears, to their flocks ... they loved their people only second to their love of Christ, and they didn't want any of their flock placing their faith in anything other than the absolute truth. Calvin, Luther, Augustine were all country preachers by today's standards, whose passion for the Gospel and the Lost drove them to take the long hard view.

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post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 08:45 AM
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Original sin can be related to what psychoanalysts call the Ego. It is that part of our mind which sees us as separate from everyone and everything in creation including God. We see ourselves as special, different, better, more, first in time of distress, and so on. You have all heard the phrase "Can't see the forest for the tree." Well, we see ourselves as a tree which is separate from the forest. The best, tallest most beautiful tree, and if loggers come, we must be saved first.
So, the point is, once we have received Christ and changed our ways, we are still dogged by these thoughts. Just as Paul says, "Oh wretched man . . . !"
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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teamnelson View Post
The original sin was not the act of disobedience, or the consequences of that disobedience but the heart behind that disobedience which desired something other than God, more than God, and was willing to reject God to get it.
.
That may be your opinion but there is nothing in the Bible to really extend what the original sin was.


Adam did not commit the first sin but his attitude of not giving **** was actually his sin as he tried to throw blame on the woman and then on God for giving him the woman.
That is not a desire for something other than God; it is apathy at its worst.

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post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Riebe View Post
That may be your opinion but there is nothing in the Bible to really extend what the original sin was.


Adam did not commit the first sin but his attitude of not giving **** was actually his sin as he tried to throw blame on the woman and then on God for giving him the woman.
That is not a desire for something other than God; it is apathy at its worst.

What I posted is based in the wealth of scriptures that equivocates sin as desire, to include the events in the garden which began with desire. The ten commandants are all condemnations of desire: desiring another God, another person's property, another person's wife. Israel continually sinned before God because they desired other Gods, other laws, other things that God had prohibited. Christ taught that sin begins in the heart of man, and that to desire another's man wife is the same as adultery, and to desire another man's death is the same as murder. It is clear that Adam desired a happy relationship with his wife over a right relationship with God. James 1:14-15, desire is sin in the conceptual mode, i.e. fetal. We call a full term healthy delivered desire: Sin. But again Jesus equated the guilt of desire with the guilt of the act, acknowledging that desire is sin - they are two modes of the same thing. The third mode is death. Desire/Sin/Death are inseparable ... hence the Gospel that addresses all 3.

Therefore we can reasonably read the original sin as the desire for something God forbade, and a desire to be like God, that matured into an act of partaking, and matured further still into death (as scripture tells us that mankind died that day, spiritually in separation from God.)

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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 08:10 PM
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Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.

____________
"As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us.

This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.
― Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business
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