Question on Saving Faith - Page 3 - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #21 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 12:25 PM
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I have heard it taught that mere mental assent is not faith, faith is heart knowledge as has been posted.
Would not "non-saving faith" then be mere mental assent?
I think of it as knowing about Him without knowing Him in a personal relationship. Matthew 7-22 tells us of that day when some will speak of how they worked miracles in His name yet He knew them not.

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post #22 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:00 PM
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GS - "I have heard it taught that mere mental assent is not faith, faith is heart knowledge as has been posted. Would not "non-saving faith" then be mere mental assent?"

Understand what you mean about mental ascent but a "non-saving faith" seems an oxymoron. IMO, mental ascent is a recognition of a truth but not a faith - trust - of any kind. Like; my granny believed airplanes were safe but she would not trust enough to ride one so she never derived any benefit from her belief. Many people "believe" Jesus is the Son of God but refuse to put themselves in his hands as Lord of their life so their belief avails them nothing. (THAT'S why the demon's personal knowledge means nothing good.)

People can have strong or weak faith but faith is faith. A strong faith is one that has been tested in the fires of life and comes out stronger from the test; Peter's actions on the night of the trial is an example. Those with an untested weak faith, like Peter's, will live in fear or defeat but it's still faith - I think.


"Matthew 7-22 tells us of that day when some will speak of how they worked miracles in His name yet He knew them not."

Mt 7: "…21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’…

How can good deeds be called "lawlessness"? That 22nd verse describes people who actually believe and do works as good as works can get but they are still rejected. Ergo, their works counter those with shallow belief and that's untrusting. It also shows that "good works" cannot contribute anything at all to salvation.

The salvation of God is by the unconditional grace (aka, the loving favor) of Father God for our faith/trust in Jesus ... period. Works that spiritually matter follow salvation, works are not at all intermingled with obtaining OR maintaining salvation. A changed life and good works are proofs of the believer's new birth in Christ but they do not, indeed cannot cause the new birth! The real rewards for our good works will be received in heaven but works do not pay any part of the price of heaven's entry. Jesus fully paid that price for each of us on the cross. He paid for ALL of our sins, past, present and future, therefore there is no purgatory and there will be no boasting or shared glory in heaven.

Eph 2 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Note that we are expected to DO GOOD WORKS but it specifically says we are NOT SAVED BY GOOD WORkS! I can't fathom why some folk refuse to accept that.

I don't have a Phd, not even a BA. But I do have a DD214.

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post #23 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 03:16 PM
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Billy, climb off your papal chair and ego deflate a bit.

My only post referencing you at all, is #10. It doesn't have a single question mark so once again you take snarky exception to answer questions you were never asked.

Not that it matters but, to quote one of your own favorite comments for my #6, try to read it for understanding: note that I specificity ask Cipili for clarification of something HE said, not you.

Nothing is ever gained by quoting a whole post in order to only address a specific point. Coping everything when there is no question to everything can fog the issue and it certainly eats up a lot of Graybill's storage space.

Bless your heart.

I don't have a Phd, not even a BA. But I do have a DD214.

Common sense is an uncommon virtue

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post #24 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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For those who are tracking down the path of mental ascent please go back and read the original post and post #9. The basis of the post is belief, i.e. saving faith. If there is something that you believe to be required or necessary beyond what is written please share it. That is another purpose of the OP.

lc

There is nothing in the world so damaged that it cannot be repaired by the hand of almighty God.

I encourage you to know this because without this certainty we should all of us be mad.

Poirot
"Appointment with Death"
By Agatha Christie

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post #25 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wncchester View Post
that I specificity ask Cipili for clarification of something HE said, .

Did I address it? and also address the intent of the thread, LC?

What I meant to say was that since man cannot do any spiritual good without the grace of God, the very fact that you are doing a spiritual good is LIVING PROOF of the Holy Spirit acting in the world. That's all.


And its 'cpileri", BTW.


C-

____________
"As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us.

This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.
― Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business
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post #26 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilysDad View Post
I can't believe that I need to define repentance. It means to turn around, turn back.


It is [B][U]Nothing[U][B] we do. Faith only comes by the power of the Holy Spirit. It always boggles peoples minds in our Bible Class when they are told that we can turn away from Christ on our own, but we can only receive Jesus by the power of the Spirit.

Additional Question: What is non-saving Faith?
I assume you have turned around and do not commit willful sin by your definition then.

Repentance in the context used is to turn from unbelief to belief--there, then is the perseverance of the Saints .
Blessings

TEXAS, by GOD
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post #27 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 11:14 AM
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C - Okay.

What I sorta meant is the lost can do good things too. In fact, many do. Religious self delusion based on self righteous "good works" appears to be common and that is the message of MT 7:21-23 that GS first mentioned. Some denominations major on good works much more than a spiritual new birth rising from faith in Jesus and that puts the works cart before the driving power of the faith horse. THAT'S "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you" sad.

Bottom line, good works are an indicator but they obviously are not proof of being reborn into God's family; no amount of works can take us where we have not yet been. The lost have not yet been in God's family and only faith/trust in Jesus (alone) as personal Lord and savior can get them there!

I don't have a Phd, not even a BA. But I do have a DD214.

Common sense is an uncommon virtue

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post #28 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 11:27 AM
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The lost can do natural good things, not spiritual good things.


Actually, since we are all entirely dependent upon God for our very existence, we cant do natural good things either without His grace- but that isn't apparent to an unbeliever.

____________
"As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us.

This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.
― Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business
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post #29 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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I believe that WN hit the answer for the question, " What is non saving faith"?

If we keep the discussion within the context of assurance for the believer, born again, regenerate what is the source of the assurance?

I was thinking about natural abilities. Say that we are considering two people. One is by nature very regimented, maybe OCD. Rigid routine and self discipline come naturally and easily to that person. In contrast the other is naturally "eclectic", disorganized and a little scatter brained. Both are believers and demonstrate saving faith. Both value Christ's work of Grace on their behalf and have thankful hearts. The first example is very consistent with prayers, Bible reading, shares the gospel,regularly and doesn't ever kick the cat. The second is inconsistent with all of these things. If each person in the example or those observing each person were to use the measuring stick of what man considers "visual" works there would be a natural tendency to say that the first is more spiritual, holy and Godly. Would this be a fair measure for either of these to apply to themselves? Is it a fair measure for us to apply to them? All of us know of such examples.

lc

There is nothing in the world so damaged that it cannot be repaired by the hand of almighty God.

I encourage you to know this because without this certainty we should all of us be mad.

Poirot
"Appointment with Death"
By Agatha Christie
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post #30 of 51 (permalink) Old 02-11-2017, 11:40 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpileri View Post
The lost can do natural good things, not spiritual good things.


Actually, since we are all entirely dependent upon God for our very existence, we cant do natural good things either without His grace- but that isn't apparent to an unbeliever.
To help clarify the idea of "good works" are we talking about morally good actions?
For the sake of discussion how are we defining good works?

lc

There is nothing in the world so damaged that it cannot be repaired by the hand of almighty God.

I encourage you to know this because without this certainty we should all of us be mad.

Poirot
"Appointment with Death"
By Agatha Christie
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