Straight walled cartridges,HB5416 - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-01-2010, 02:17 PM Thread Starter
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Default Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

Sent a thank you note to Matt Lorie for being the sponsor for house bill 5416, This bill would allow the use of straight walled pistol cartridges in rifles in the shotgun zone during deer season.I also asked what the chances were for passage . Matt's office sent back a note that the DNR was pitching a PISS-FIT, saying that it would be too confusing for field staff to tell if a cartridge was shorter then 1.8 inches, .35 cal or larger and had straight walls (don't they have to do this already because pistols are all ready legal ?) and that areas near towns would be closed because of this new rifle danger (B.S.) This sounds a lot like when C.P.L.s were being voted on, "There will be blood running in the streets if we allow people to carry handguns". Anyway if you think that toting a .357, .44 or something else in a rifle (remember, gotta be a straight walled cartridge less then 1.8 inches, .35cal or larger) for deer seasonwould be great, PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE send a note of support to your Rep asking for their support, also MUCC and the DNR wouldn't hurt ether . Others have put a lot of hard work into this bill, Let's help get a great common sense law passed
TX. Buckey
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-17-2010, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

I believe pistols do not have the length restrictions. 45-70 and 444 and 375W are now legal in pistols.
Putting that limit on rifles would probably limit pistols too.
You can already shoot pistol bullets in muzzle loaders and slug guns. My 20ga is easily a 200 yd gun as well is my .50 ML.
If you just want to use old leverguns and trapdoors, most of them are design for longer cartridges too.
So what is it you want to accomplish?

I have been a lost child most of my life.
Since being born in a log cabin that I built with my own hands, it has been an uphill struggle all the way. Being so devastatingly handsome, intelligent, rich-beyond-belief, and humble have all worked together to shape me and my destinies.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-17-2010, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

I agree with jjvw, we don't need this, it will only lead to restrictions to my pistol huntig calibers. I started hunting with an Encore pistol three years ago in zone 3 so I could get away from the shot gun. I currently use a 15" barrel in .444 Marlin. I don't want them coming up with new restrictions telling me I can't use it because the cartridge is too long. I can use my Marlin lever gun in .444 up north but use my Encore down state (same cal. but legal because it's a pistol). We will loose the ability to use straight walled rifle cartridges like .375 Win, .444 Marlin, 45/70 Govt.
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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-19-2010, 05:04 AM Thread Starter
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Default Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

"WOW" So much for the old guy that grew up watching Gun Smoke, Wagon Train and a handful of westerns, You know back when life was a little simpler . How allowing the use of straight walled pistol cartridges will put a stop to some one else,s fun, some how doesn't pass the smell test.
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-19-2010, 12:33 PM
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Default Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

Wow, what a bunch of complicated rules. Good discussion going on in this thread.


"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-19-2010, 10:52 PM
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Default Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

Originally Posted by buckey
"WOW" So much for the old guy that grew up watching Gun Smoke, Wagon Train and a handful of westerns, You know back when life was a little simpler . How allowing the use of straight walled pistol cartridges will put a stop to some one else,s fun, some how doesn't pass the smell test.
Well to spell it out, I can currently use any straight wall cartridge in my pistol, this includes straight wall rifle cartridges. The way this bill is written, it would limit the rifles to using on straight wall pistol cartridge that is 1.80" case length or less. If this were to be passed, the DNR is already complaining about having to verify that the cartridge met the length restrictions. So, the logical next step would be to present a bill or add to this one that would limit pistol users to also only be able to shoot pistol cartridges. So I won't be able to use my .444 or 45/70 barrels which I do in zone 3. Now, will I have the distance with a .44 Mag that I currently have with a rifle cartridge like .375, 444, 45/70, 450 Marin, or 460. I don't think so, and all these cartriges would be taken away from our options. Now, with the new bill, it will tie my hands to an inferior selection of cartridges. Why are most of these hunters want to pass laws that restrict us even more than we already are. Whatch waht you ask for!!
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-07-2010, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

Why not repeal the idiotic rifle ban in the areas affected? It is totally not necessary and according to a Pa. study rifle bans accomplish nothing, and may even be detrimental to safety.

From an article I recently read:

In case anyone is interested in reading the Pennsylvania study:


I am a WDNR (Wisconsin) Hunter Safety Instructor, so we have to point to this scientific study often
when this topic arises. As a hunter, hunting in the shotgun only portion of Shawano County,
I am here to tell you that I have seen this "study" in practice. A number of years ago the
local farm gang was driving and deer ran across the plowed field between our cabin, and
the hunters. At about 500 yards from the cabin, the farm boys opened up, with Fosters slugs, and
smooth bore shotguns. My father standing outside the cabin, watching the circus, was diving under his
truck, as the reflected slugs were piling into the hard maple trees around our cabin. When confronted,
the farm boys had to be shown the fresh slug holes in the hard maples before they would believe
that 12 slugs could travel that far after hitting dirt in the plowed field. A rifle bullet would have
destabilized, and lost energy much faster. So safety wise, there is NO proof that shotguns are
safer, and if you read this study, you could come to the conclusion that in the majority of hunting
scenarios, the shotgun is more dangerous.

Now limiting the EFFECTIVE range of deer hunting weapons is a different issue.

A fully rifled shotgun, shooting an all copper sabot slug has the effective range
of the old standard 30-30 Win. deer rifle, as does the modern magnum black powder rifle. And not
to mention that the WI handgun rules open this effective range more. I have a 308 Win. chambered
bolt action pistol, with a 2-7x scope on it, and it is legal in WI "shotgun only" zones. So just strap
a butt stock on the thing, and it will look more like my 308 BAR. One is legal below HWY 29, and
one is not. This shows how stupid these laws have become.

So if the goal is to limit effective range, then to be honest about it, limitations to shotguns,
and muzzleloaders, need to be added. Only smooth bore shotguns, and non-magnum muzzleloaders,
ought to be in the rules.

Back on the topic of firearms restrictions, I am for the simplest rule. You choose. In firearms season, have
a minimum handgun, shotgun, and rifle restriction, and let the hunter choose which works best for them. It
sure would simplify enforcement, too.

Don't get me started on limiting firearms ranges, for management purposes...The justifications remind me of
a pile of deer droppings. There are many in a pile, and they are only good for fertilizer.
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-13-2010, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

Same argument by CO's for lead versus steel shot...How are we going to police the use of steel shot versus lead shot???? oh yeah a simple magnet was used....IN CO's use simple case length gauge and from what I have heard from IN DNR in person there has no issue whatsoever with their rule of 1.625" case length. I was stopped by a MI CO in muzzleloader season and I broke open my Encore then and would do so if this rule were to pass. This is pure BS by MI DNR based upon their own ignorance.

Many states are going with similar rules so you wonder why MI DNR is having trouble with this rule? The same calibers out of a Encore 15" barrel is already near maximum velocity based upon pistol powder burn rates. You don't gain a whole heck of velocity going to rifle length barrels with Pistol calibers. I have a 500 S&W in 26" barrel, the velocity plateaued at about 2350 with 45 gr. of Lil Gun. Going to max load of 49 gr. didn't gain 25 fps. This is only about 150 fps faster than an Encore 15" barrel same load. Heck, a 8 3/4" barrel is said to be 2150 fps.

Heard all the same arguments before when compound bows came out, they were not bows, the archery season will be killed, there will no bow hunting, releases make bows like crossbows....Treestands will increase injuries and fatalities in MI. Don't confuse the situation with facts. ..We have met the enemy and frankly it is us.

This is a good rule, does not change risks, PA study was provided to Matt Lori with citations specific to this rule. The problem appears to be we have non-professionals in the DNR dept. with no clue on firearms, etc. The real issue is they are "afraid" that IF someone were to be hurt, they will be held liable for the rule change. This is crap, we all know it but that is what we have in our DNR.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Ben Franklin
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-13-2010, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

Muddyboots, I agree with what you're saying regarding the DNR using a length gauge or something to measure cartridge length, but if this bill passes and the DNR is still wining, I'm sure the nest bill down the line will be to also limit our Encore pistols to the same pistol calibers. Now if your Encore was a 15" .500 as my .444 is, would you want to see them tell you it was no longer legal to use.

I hope the DNR puts up enough wining that this bill goes dead in the water. JMHO

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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-12-2010, 10:18 AM
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Default Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416

you know your bill has my full support. why is the DRNE having trouble ? non- firearm educated un-professionals running the show, pure and simple.
with the dead economy and failure of the DNRE to support hunters and hunting, this bill needs to pass , opening up more oppertunities for michigan sports men and women. now that the DNRE has to rewrite the baiting ban, maybe the message will be sent that they need to review thier desicision makeing processes.
the last thing michigan hunters need is more restrictions and this bill surely doesnt need to fall dead.
fall deer season, i hunted in the thumb region and could not see or understand the reason for that area being shotgun only... no rational descision there either.
the DNRE needs to support the sportsperson and gain some common sense.

GoodYear Arizona
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