30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :) - Page 5 - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #61 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-18-2012, 05:31 AM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

High velocity damages more meat than low velocity. Dead is dead. Better to waste a shoulder than lose the whole animal with cartridges that won't do the job. I use either a .30-06 or my .45-70. Dead is dead...

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post #62 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-18-2012, 06:23 AM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

well im not a nuckle dragger or a 130 lb cammo wearing hunter but ive sure been know to shoot some deer at a 100 yards with various magnum rounds. Are they needed? Nope, surely not at those ranges anyway. But when were hunting many times 400 yard shots present themselves too and ill argue till im dead that magnums do have there place for that. Bottom line is ive killed hundreds of whitetails with many differnent caliber guns at about any range from 10 yards to 500 plus. Where you put the bullet means a **** of alot more then what gun or caliber your using when it comes to meat damage. Ive blown the **** out of deer with 243s and even 3030s and have also shot deer at a 100 yards with the 300 wby without ruining a thing but the ribs. I kind of agree with smampy here. Dead is dead. Are you more interested in 2 or 3 extra lbs of burger or in making a quick clean kill. Me i detest tracking deer. Im not up to it much physicaly anymore and i also hate the idea of a deer running off hurting so if im hunting an area where 300 yards shots are definatley on the plate youll find me with one of those macho magnums. I see many advantages to them. there flatter shooting and harder hitting and few disadvantages. About the only ones i can come up with are ammo cost and recoil. Which brings us to the real argument guys have against them. Id bet 90 percent of the guys who preach against them are guys that really dont shoot. Even a 300 wby sure doesnt hurt you phyiscaly to shoot. It my belch and buck a bit but its more a mental thing then a physical thing and anyone that is willing to put in a bit of time shooting one discovers that in short order. Sure there are the 10 percent who can physical do it due to injury or old age but i chuckle at 40 year old guys that claim something like a 7mag will beat the **** out of you. Best check the colar of your panties. I may not be a knuckle dragging paramilitary goon but i also dont drive a prius to my hunting spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudge6771
ScootRD:

The piece on AccurateShooter is essentially the same as what's on "6br," as well as comments in Boston's Gun Bible (a VERY good publication written by a VERY well respected guy, who wrote it under a pseudonym). ALL agree, and ballistics and harvest data have pretty much proven, that not only is the 7MM-08 as good or better in hunting scenarios...but is what the military SHOULD have gone to in the 1950's. Boston, in particular, lays out a host of technical reasons why this is the case.

Swampman:

Your comments are puzzling. Are you a killer? Or a hunter? ??? Because a HUNTER wants (a) to harvest the animal ethically (meaning, use ENOUGH gun to make a clean kill so you aren't tracking a deer hit by a quartering shot from a puny .223 or something), but at the same time (b) WANTS TO EAT THE MEAT (meaning not SO MUCH gun that he's going to bloodshot and tear up the meat).

Blowing the living daylights out of anything should NOT be one's goal if they want to fill their freezer with the maximum amount of meat.


If I run into another knuckle-dragging idiot (ALWAYS a visitor...never a local) here in the Adirondacks sitting at the edge of a 100 yard field holding a .300 RUM he intends to "hunt" a 130-180 lb whitetail with, I'm going to explode... Well, I MIGHT explode...the deer definitely will.

Why is it that THAT GUY is always 5'7", 130 lbs, wearing "tactical gear," and has a nervous twitch and a goatee??

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post #63 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-18-2012, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

I'm a 300 Weatherby fan....it's awesome.

"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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post #64 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-21-2012, 10:15 AM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

I own both, and like both, but for whitetails 98% of the time you will find me with a Rem. LSS Mtn. rifle in 7mm/08. It shoots 140 Accubonds MOA all day long, sometimes better. I've been shooting the 7mm/08 since 1982, and it's a stone cold killer of whitetails and hogs. YMMV
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post #65 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

I'm so glad you brought this thread to life! I own a .300 Weatherby caliber gun. Love it. I also have a 7mm-08 and a .30-06. I have used them extensively, and have decidedly come to a positive conclusion as which one is better for deer sized game. I really think that either the 7mm-08 or the .30-06 is better. There! I'm glad I got it off my chest!


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post #66 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-27-2012, 06:48 AM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

probably true for 95 percent of the hunters out there. Most never shoot a deer out past 200 yards anyway other then with a keyboard and most dont shoot enough to ever master a 300 wby. But when the deer are way out there and in the hands of someone can really shoot it the 300wby is a killing machine and with proper bullet placement at the worse will maybe cause you to loose 2lbs of hamburger. If you dont shoot past 200 and cant handle the recoil it sure doesnt give you the right to slam someone who can. Hunting is a personal thing. If im competent enough to hit deer a 100 percent of the time with precision at 500 yards and use equiptment capable of doing the job does that make me less of a hunter then someone who uses a 270 that they may shoot 2 boxes of shells through in a year and shoot there deer at 200yards. Id bet in most cases im doing alot less tracking of wounded animals them most of them are. Nothing makes me more angry then a guy who because he cant get the job done automaticaly thinks that nobody elses should be doing it. I can drive a car fast but i cant drive as well as Jimmy Johnson. Does that mean he shouldnt drive over 70 mph????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalgo
I'm so glad you brought this thread to life! I own a .300 Weatherby caliber gun. Love it. I also have a 7mm-08 and a .30-06. I have used them extensively, and have decidedly come to a positive conclusion as which one is better for deer sized game. I really think that either the 7mm-08 or the .30-06 is better. There! I'm glad I got it off my chest!


Dalgo.

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post #67 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-27-2012, 06:59 AM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

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Originally Posted by Lloyd
probably true for 95 percent of the hunters out there. Most never shoot a deer out past 200 yards anyway other then with a keyboard and most dont shoot enough to ever master a 300 wby. But when the deer are way out there and in the hands of someone can really shoot it the 300wby is a killing machine and with proper bullet placement at the worse will maybe cause you to loose 2lbs of hamburger. If you dont shoot past 200 and cant handle the recoil it sure doesnt give you the right to slam someone who can. Hunting is a personal thing. If im competent enough to hit deer a 100 percent of the time with precision at 500 yards and use equiptment capable of doing the job does that make me less of a hunter then someone who uses a 270 that they may shoot 2 boxes of shells through in a year and shoot there deer at 200yards. Id bet in most cases im doing alot less tracking of wounded animals them most of them are. Nothing makes me more angry then a guy who because he cant get the job done automaticaly thinks that nobody elses should be doing it. I can drive a car fast but i cant drive as well as Jimmy Johnson. Does that mean he shouldnt drive over 70 mph? ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalgo
I'm so glad you brought this thread to life! I own a .300 Weatherby caliber gun. Love it. I also have a 7mm-08 and a .30-06. I have used them extensively, and have decidedly come to a positive conclusion as which one is better for deer sized game. I really think that either the 7mm-08 or the .30-06 is better. There! I'm glad I got it off my chest!


Dalgo.
[/quote Its all about recoil . turning my shoulder 3 shades of purple is not for me .

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what s for lunch
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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post #68 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-28-2012, 08:06 AM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampman
High velocity damages more meat than low velocity. Dead is dead. Better to waste a shoulder than lose the whole animal with cartridges that won't do the job. I use either a .30-06 or my .45-70. Dead is dead...
!!!!!!!

Oh yeah, I know! It's crazy how hard it is to kill deer! Be honest, I consider 45-70 to be a decent 'women & youth' caliber, or if you're just an effeminate male, cuz I don't even look at a deer unless I'm packing a .458 Lott. I mean, you KNOW how hard their "outer shell" is. Besides, what if he charges you after you take the shot? You can't risk it. ???

Besides, some of the deer around here wear Kevlar vests, so bullet selection is key. My preference? Incendiary rounds.

Because it's NOT about being a good and skillful shot and filling your freezer with meat. It's about making sure that deer is blown to pieces on the field of battle, right Swampman? These deer trespassers MUST be stopped, damnit. >
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post #69 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-28-2012, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

How did we go from 7-08 Vs 30-06 to you can 't kill a deer with anything less than a Bazooka.
Now deer hunting means different things to different people.
Growing up Hunting in NY State we had a drive and stand and shots were never very far. 100 yards was an extremely long shot. Most of my Dad's friends hunted with 30-06, 308, 8X57, or other popular commercial round based on the 30-06 or 308 case. The 30-30 was considered a kids rifle. Really much more than is needed to shoot a deer at 30 yards. My one uncle (dad's best friend) had a 222 Rem Mag he used for deer and it worked. Would a 357 Mag, or little other pistol round have worked there. Yea.
Now on our farm in NC we can have some distance as the woods are open and the fields are a whole lot larger. 200+ yards is possible if you want.
When I went to Montana and saw the wide open spaces I could understand why they like 7mm mag and other flatter shooting rounds not to mention that these same rounds can be used for other western game like Antelope, Elk, Goat, sheep and Moose.
45-70 can go from mild to wild and everything inbetween is a great swamp round in it has a good amount of energy and the blunt flat nose transfers that energy to the deer and knocks them down. With the pointed higher velocity rounds they tend to zing through the deer and not knock them down. In the dense swamps of the east coast the deer can be lost easy and sometimes a larger than needed caliber helps to anchor the deer to fill the freezer. Not to mention the larger than needed calibers work to kill black bear, again not hard to kill them but the larger the hole through their lungs the faster they lay down and expire. The excessive fat makes it hard to track them as it plugs 30 caliber and smaller holes.
I think you will find a following of defferent calibers and bullet designs depending on where you go in the county based on the terrain.
Where a 30-06 with a big round nose is used in the swamps that same 30-06 with a pointed bullet is used in the open fields of the south.
The 7-08 was considerd a kids and youth round has taken hold as a great round in the semi open fields of the south and mid west. Geography and hunting method are going to dictate the caliber and design of the gun.


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post #70 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-28-2012, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcwoodduck
The 7-08 was considerd a kids and youth round has taken hold as a great round in the semi open fields of the south and mid west.
I was right with you until you dropped that one. I don't know who you were referencing when you explained how the 7MM-08 "was considered," but I've never met a human being bright enough to count to three who thought that. Lemme put this to bed right here...the 7MM-08 is in large part a BETTER round than it's chubby parent. The .308 can't outperform 140's out of a 7MM-07 until it starts pushing 180 grain bullets. And even then, if you have a need to push 180's, the .308 is a poor 'compromise' choice, as a .30-06 or .300 Win Mag are what you want if you need to push a pill that size. BTW, this is just as the need to push 220's should make one reach for a .338 over the .30-06...because the '06 tops it's energy out in most loads at 190-200 grains. So thereafter, yer just hanging in for more recoil and no real increase in killing power.

The 6mmbr website offer some additional reasons why the 7MM-08 is superior to it's tubby father, as does "Boston's Gun Bible," which among other thing states, "...the 7MM-08 is what the military SHOULD have gone to in the 1950's."

How would it be, that a round which is at BEST 10% better in SOME loads (.308 win.) should be thought of one way, and the other (7mm-08) considered a "women and youth" caliber? There are just too many **** fools trolli'n round the internet who don't REALLY know a dang thing about ballistics...that's how. Perhaps it's because the recoil is considerably milder (efficiency!) and most lug-nuts don't feel they're men if they don't come home a little sore after 3 boxes at the range.

It's a bit like saying the 500 horse power car is for 'manly men'...but the 465 horse power one next to it is for grandma to drive.

Oh, and I should add that I have only ever seen two 180-gr .308 loads which could match the ballistics of a 7MM-08 firing 168 Berger VLD's (factory load by CorBon). Only two.
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post #71 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-29-2012, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

Nudge 6771,
It was my father's hunting friends that thought that deer equaled a 30 caliber, that the 243 and the 25-06 were Varmint rounds. And at 14 years old there there was no way I was going ot be shooting a kids, womans or varmint round.
The 7-08 had just come out and they wrote about the lighter bullets and the low recoil and thought kids. Dad wanted to get me one at first till I said I wanted an 06. The Gun Rags of the mid 80's were touting the 7-08 as what I said a kids and ladies round and showed it with many deer, proghorn and I think a couple black bears.
We went to the local gun shop and looked at an 06. Dad had me cycle the bolt with my head down looking through the sights and I hit my self in the nose with the bolt, drawing blood, so a short action it was, since dad had a 308, so did I.
Had Dad had a 7-08 (not available in his Sako Deluxe of 1967) then I would have one too.
And you state the 168 grain bullet from the 7-08 and it is probably a great bullet flys far and fast with little drift or drop.
And if you hunt in open spaces that matters.
If you hunt is dense woods the heavier bullet with the blunt end matters. If I could have gotten a 358 Win instead I would have. Not because it will plow through brush, it will not but it transfers more energy now to the animal and anchors them in a place where deer can get lost quickly and you second guess your self of a hit.
Now back to the 7-08 it is an updated short action version of the world class 7X57 that has killed everything all over the planet.
With that said I have been thinkng of a custom 7TCU in a CZ 527 rifle for deer and pigs.
Now the debate between 7mm (284) and 30 caliber (308) has been the Ford Vs Chevy argument of the gun world. Some people just like one over the other for no real reason. No matter what facts are put infront of them.
Whne I wrote earlier about a comprimise between the two rounds being the 308, I could have just as easily picked the 7X57. For a few other reasons all valid.




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post #72 of 98 (permalink) Old 03-30-2012, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

McWoodduck,

That's a good story 'bout nailin' yer nose...the kind of memory that burns a place and time and the company you were with in your mind. A good Dad story too...can't say my childhood yielded many of those.

In my first post on this thread I mentioned that I only own two high-powered's -- 7MM-08 and .30-06, both Rem 700's. Like most people will agree, I am of the mind that the .30-06 can LITERALLY be one's only rifle, irrespective of where you live and hunt. So effective and flexible, it's boring.

But truth be told, if it's just whitetail I'm after, I'll sooner pick up the 7MM-08. I mean, the **** thing is a JOY to shoot. I'd venture to say (having not shot EVERY caliber out there, but probably most) that it might just offer the very best balance of power vs recoil of anything around. (Interestingly, I have been TOLD that up the scale in size, the .35 Whelen offers a similar balance of power vs recoil in it's category. But I wouldn't know.)

My '06 is set up to shoot 180's (Elk, Black bear) but I've got 150's as well as a back up round to my 140 gr 7MM-08 deer choice. I mean, it's a little crazy to some I guess, but the '06 actually does backup duty for the other one (whitetails ONLY).

So suffice to say, with my 12 gauge, .22LR, 7MM-08 and .30-06...I feel like there ain't a thing I couldn't do.
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post #73 of 98 (permalink) Old 04-03-2012, 09:30 PM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudge6771
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcwoodduck
Lemme put this to bed right here...the 7MM-08 is in large part a BETTER round than it's chubby parent. The .308 can't outperform 140's out of a 7MM-07 until it starts pushing 180 grain bullets. And even then, if you have a need to push 180's, the .308 is a poor 'compromise' choice,

The 6mmbr website offer some additional reasons why the 7MM-08 is superior to it's tubby father, as does "Boston's Gun Bible," which among other thing states, "...the 7MM-08 is what the military SHOULD have gone to in the 1950's."

Finally someone to agree with I've always said that in the "same parent case "the 7mm will always out perform the 30 cal. The 7mm always has better a ballistic coifficient gets higher velocity and carries more energy down range even if you go up in bullet weight with the 30 in the same parent case which ever on it may be (7mm-08vs.308, 280 vs 30-06, 7mmWSM vs 300WSM ect.) The 30 cal looses velocity and the 7mm surpasses it in both trajectory and energy. Amen to you Nudge

2-.223's,2-.243's, 4-22lr's, 357, 45LC, 7mm-08, .280, 30-06, 2-4/10's, 20ga, 12ga. and a custom savage 7mmWSM...
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post #74 of 98 (permalink) Old 04-08-2012, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

150gr is on the lighter end for the '06, so comparing a 140gr 7mm bullet is on the heavier end of its caliber. Yes, it bridges the gap to the '06, but if you compare light for caliber rounds between the two and heavy for caliber rounds between the two, the '06 is clearly at least a full step up if not a step and a half. For whitetail, that extra power may not be needed, but you can't really make an accurate comparison by going light on one and heavy on the other.

I have only really noticed a significant difference between deer I've killed with uber-powerful rounds.
45-70 - ran like ****
35 Whelen - ran like ****
300 win mag - ran like ****
44 mag - bang flop
30-06 bang flop
243 - bang flop...with a little squirming

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post #75 of 98 (permalink) Old 04-08-2012, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

txpitdog,

What you are recounting about larger calibers not dropping them instantly, can be both a plus and a minus. The reason those higher powered (.300 Win Mag.) or larger diameter (.45-70, .35 Whelen) rounds sometimes get a runner, is that people are using too tough a bullet for a soft animal like a deer. As a result, they get lazer-clean pass-throughs, which, while they make a huge wound channel and blood trail, won't necessarily overcome the adrenhiline jolt of fear that prompts the deer to run.

Rounds like the .270 win, on the other hand, are likely to get a high speed 'sprawl' in the deer, essentially shreading the deer inside, which makes for spectacular DRT kills. BUT those type of kills also mean more meat damage.

The solution is to use a softer bullet like a Speer Hot Cor load when shooting softees like deer with larger calibers. The bullet opens up, and you get the best of both worlds -- expanded wound channel and good blood.

One of the ugliest things you could see is a .25-06 deer kill with 100 grains @ less than 75 yards. Like tossing a grenade at the deer. :-\

This is precisely why, given they hunt in close, generations of hunters have found the 30-30 SUCH an effective deer slayer. Guys who hunt .45-70 need only to replace their solid and tougher-expander loads with softer ones, and watch how much better they do inside of 125 yards.

The Whelen -- of the the all-time greatest rounds EVER -- exists somewhere in between.

Hunting should be less about "spectacular kills" and more about "spectacular harvests," the latter of which would mean the best balance of chase vs damage. Truth be told, that zippy .270 Win might take em down in a hurry...but if it's meat yer after, that's a real consideration.
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