The 223 Short Project. - Page 38 - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #371 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 07:17 PM
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i'll play with some 38/357 brass and see what happens when I get a free min. I know they slid right into my 300 blackout dies with no issue. I no longer own them though.

as for the annealing with as thick the necks are for the short it would definitely help. probably would help with accuracy as well. I've been wanting to try the salt bath annealing setup but thats more for my .308 and .260 where i'm after case life and accuracy. the torch with a socket method would likely work for the short but your going to have to be careful as the case is so short you don't want to anneal to far. if the web got annealed it could become unsafe. so it's a two way street. if you want the accuracy it may be worth the added fuss maybe every 3rd or 4th firing but since .223 brass is so cheap and you have the forming die's i'd say it would be just as easy to toss them as they fail and form new ones.
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post #372 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-14-2017, 09:52 PM
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so after trashing a dozen or so cases I was able to get one case that resembles a rimmed .223 short. it's actually a .22 tcm with the necks set around the same length (the tcm has a wider dimension at the case shoulder junction which is why the shoulder looks different)


However Brian i'm kind of glad I did this. I didn't seat bullets and mic the necks but you can visibly see the neck is very much thinner than the .223 short's. I used a 38 special case so i'm not sure if the brass is thicker on the Jet? depending on the difference we may end up with split necks upon firing as the brass will have to grow significantly to take up the space. brass life will be effected for sure.

so you may want to run that buy the guy with the TC before he pulls the trigger on the re-chamber. or he may want to consider running a straight .223 short? (I've never owned or studied a TC so i'm not sure whats all involved for case extraction)

On a side note. I recieved my HSS tool blanks yesterday to make my rim recess on our shell holders as well as a few extra to have on hand. and I lit a fire under PTG's arse. supposed to ship tomorrow. otherwise i'll probably cancel the order and get a manson (got my 9mm reamer from them and quick service)

Last edited by squirrel_slayer; 03-15-2017 at 02:23 AM.
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post #373 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 12:56 AM Thread Starter
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Great posts.

My Rem 700 221 Fireball magazine follower is on its way from Pacific Tool & Gauge. It will be interesting to see if it fits the Axis magazine with the matching Remington magazine spring and I can create a functioning magazine for the 223 Short, again, at minimal expense.

My 223 reference case neck wall thickness is .019" and .251" OD before expansion, unfortunately, I don't have a fired case to compare at the moment.

The 22 Rem Jet case neck wall thickness is .013"-.014" and .245" OD before expansion.
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post #374 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 08:40 AM
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Yeah that's a lot of brass working. your talking close to .010" per firing (remember most dies size .002 under, actually a little more than that due to springback) I would expect brass life to be very short in the V1 chamber and thinner brass.


I have no problem chambering the barrel for you with the rimmed cartridge but just thought I throw that out there before you ended up with a brass chomper.


Well I was assured my order from PTG will ship today according to Chris over there. apparently they lost my shipping address......hmm never received a email asking for it....seems customer service these days is a dying trait. Not once did he apologize! just giving me excuses. "we have a huge warehouse here" yada yada... I will think twice before ordering from them again. Manson offers a similar or = product and I had absolutely no issues with them on my last order. i'll likely give Dave Manson my business next go around.


grrr. end rant

Well finially recieved a tracking # but only shows that a label has been created. hoping it's will finally be on it's way!

Last edited by squirrel_slayer; 03-16-2017 at 07:25 PM. Reason: frustration....now hopeful
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post #375 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-18-2017, 07:42 PM
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well I checked my tracking this morning and still showed as a printed label. thinking I had been duped I decided to try an alternate method to at least rough things out and to my suprise I could honestly probably have finished the profiling. i dialed in the bore to well under .001" (again don't own a .0001" indicator yet) then I slowly ran in a center drill to set some shoulders for the centers to ride on. flipped over the barrel and did the same to the other side. Put it on centers and I have rough profiled in the barrel leaving .060" extra incase its not perfectly centered.

checked the tracking again in preparation of going to war with PTG on Monday and to my relief it got scanned in at PHX just a few min ago. so if all goes well I should see it Monday i'm hoping.

Didn't snap a photo as i didn't feel like pulling it out of the lathe as it's dialed in right now and I need to do some serious cleanup. i've been letting the chips fly and I have quite the pile of little spirals of metal. I can't afford to keep alot of stock on hand so I buy common sizes and larger sizes and turn to what I need. like the shell holder I made it started life as 1" bar stock so it made alot of mess. it would be nice to have alot of stock in 1/16" steps to keep the amount of machining down but for this hobbiest I keep 1" and 1.5" and thats it. lol
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post #376 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Default 221 FB Follower Arrived snd Brings My Next Issue

The Pacific Tool & Gauge Rem 700 ADL Fireball Magazine Follower arrived and matches with the factory spring perfectly.

However, I now have two ways I can go:

(1) Trim the end of the spring to match the profile I need for the Savage follower then modify the block that limits the rear travel of the cartridge to be against the back of the case and cut out below to accommodate the .275" longer spring, then the magazine would fit right up without issue.

(2) Order a Rem 700 ADL 221 FB Magazine box, use the Rem spring unmodified and use the PTG follower, then work out how to fit the box to the bottom of the Savage magazine that incorporates the latch.

It would seem to me that (1) would be easier than (2). If so, I need to know how to easily cut the flat spring steel to shape.

Question: Will a Dremel and cut-off wheel work?

Referring to the picture below.

The width of the unmodified spring is 0.500".

The tab in the Savage spring is 0.307" wide and 0.722" long.

The next wider part of the spring that fits into a slot underneath the follower is 0.401" wide.

Also pasted on 223 Short Chat Facebook.
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Last edited by briannmilewis; 03-19-2017 at 06:15 PM.
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post #377 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 12:57 AM
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I don't have an axis style mag for reference so it's hard for me to invision whats going on exactly. so i'm getting that the E looking spring is to long? now does the spring go in as pictured? (ie E facing Chamber side?) if your needing to remove from the side with the long fingers yes a dremel should cut through with little trouble (cut with speed not pressure) i've also trimmed similar metal with bolt cutters with a nice clean cut (I have a pair of nipex compound cutters that are crazy sharp) be careful as the cut piece will fly off at a million miles an hour typically.
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post #378 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 11:17 AM
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small update. my center reamer and venom oil showed up yesterday. i'll probably not have time to get in the garage till Friday but I'm finally at the home stretch!


Mr. Paul Box of sierra bullets was so kind as to send me 20 free 90 gr bullets to try on the .223 short project. he said they may need a 1:6 to stabilize at subsonic velocities (I'm using a 1:7) but gave them to me anyways to give them a try. Big Thanks to Paul and Sierra Bullets for their generosity.


Ordered 600 of these last night https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/73083 to have something to shoot and get the gun running on. I have a few dozen 40gr v-max's and 40gr sierra hornet bullets to try as well. the v-max will be for the savage as it will not fit in the mag for the supersonic .223 short AR. with the savage I also have a couple 55gr bullets to try as well some cast 55gr once I fire up the pot and pour some.


Brian i'll toss in some the armscore bullet for you to try in your slower twist barrel once I finish up your shell holder. going to grind the rim relief tool at work this week.


also any word on the gentleman with the TC barrel? was he still interested in giving the rimmed .223 short a shot? or a straight .223 short? just making sure before I ship back the reamer. going to try my best to wrap everything up by this weekend as I feel I have had it too long. been about a month now. did not forsee it taking this long for stuff to show up. sorry about that Brian.
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post #379 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 01:32 AM Thread Starter
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George: Great progress mate, you haven't been at it too long, it takes as long as it takes, then some, as they say.

I need to buy a 22lr TC barrel and he will rechamber it as he is a retired gunsmith, so he has all the goodies. Don't know if we will do rimmed or rimless yet.

Thanks.
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post #380 of 381 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 05:12 PM
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Ok sounds good Brian. I will say I underestimated both the time invested as well as money it takes to do a project like this. I applaud you and the other team members work as I'm learning it takes a lot more than it seems. I can only imagine how invested you are into it. it's the little stuff that gets you!


with your permission I'd like to make you and I a case gauge (basically a chambered blank verify headspace so your not under or oversizing the brass and is also useable to check distance to the lands of your reamers dimensions with different bullets. ie. seat a bullet long and keep seating it deeper until it plunks into the gauge. then you measure the length and know with a fresh throat that's distance to the lands with that bullet then you can seat +/- and see how accuracy changes) also from there I can make headspace gauges accurately.
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