Author Topic: Cut shells for shotguns  (Read 29078 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1714
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Cut shells for shotguns
« on: July 23, 2009, 10:05:49 pm »
  Perhaps this subject gets a little outside the prescribed limits of this forum, but so what, quite a few of my answers do, if I think it will benifit the readers.  So hear goes with a bit of survival information which every shotgunner should know about, and try when he has no need, just so he knows an option for turning his shotshells into a mean big game killer.

  Cut shells used to be a legal ammo for deer in Michigan, and during the last great depression, were the only ammo available to many deer hunters.  It worked well with paper hulls back then, but even better with modern plastic hulls, using factory made rounds.  Reloads may not have enough crimp grip to hold the slug together.  They DO NOT work well in semi autos, as they can't eject the stub cartridge.  In pumps, you'll have to play with it to get the empty out.  In break barrel or bolt action guns the short hull will come out easily, and most importantly, with the breakbarrel, one can look down the tube to be sure the hull didn't remain in the barrel, in case he doesn't see the slug make impact.  I've had barrels which ruptured the hull inside sending only the normal swarm of shot out, but never had a hull remain in the tube.  Yet it's a concern of mine, and I always check if not absolutely sure a SLUG hit out there somewhere.

  Use a sharp knife and cut at a slight diagonal through the shot shell case just a little more than half way, roll the shell a half turn and repeat.  This will leave a slim strip of plastic on each side which will loosely hold the "slug" of shot against the powder charge.  Make the cut about center of the area on the shot cup where you can see the hollow section.

  Use any shotshell.  Even dove loads of #8 shot will stomp a deer down with stunning speed, but I prefer heavier shot, #5 and heavier, and heavier loads.  There is no need for magnum loads, but they are fine if that's what you are carrying.

  I've probably shot them in 40 different shotguns and the only ones which didn't work were one with a rough bore, from someone shooting ball bearings, and a couple with the old adjustable Poly Choke.

  How they work.  I've never shot a shotgun with barrel good enough to send the whole slug down range, which was not more accurate with cut shells than with factory slugs.  The effect on impact is identical to holding the shotgun barrel an inch or two from the animals side, but with cutshells the range goes out to way beyond 100 yards!  Seeing one hit will leave an impression you'll never forget.

  I wrote this up because they worked so well in the great depression.  There is no reason why they won't work every bit as well in this current greatest depression of the nations history.
Veral Smith


Offline jbquack1

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2009, 08:29:23 am »
wow!talk about a wide flat nose.jim

Offline R J Talley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 102
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 09:59:46 pm »
Veral, I learned the same technique from a guy i knew when I lived in Montana. It really packed a whallop. It has to be seen to be fully appreciated
R J Talley
James Madison Fellow/NRA Member/Quail Unlimited

Offline cinosbus

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2009, 06:09:37 am »
It seems like this would lead to overpressure?

Offline 45-70.gov

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7359
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2009, 09:53:44 pm »
like  a glaser safety slug

just  bigger  and  cheaper
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline hillbill

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3365
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2009, 10:13:58 pm »
very interesting, veral, do yu have any pics of the prepared cartridges and the ones fired?

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1714
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 04:29:25 pm »
  Sorry, but I don't have the computer whiz to post pictures or I would.  If one of you sharpies in this field would email me and give me the tips I need I'll post a photo of a properly cut shell, and perhaps start doing it occasionally.
   Wide flatnose glazer  danger slug.  Pretty discriptive, I'd say.  The hull ruptures on contact.  Entrance wound will be bore size, then the shot scatters out.  Penetration is VERY shallow with fine shot, and ranges to serious depths with heavy buck shot.

   Perhaps of interest.  My brother in law shot 6 deer in a row with cut shells, #6 shot, 2 3/4 inch shells, from a 12 guage break barrel which he found near a bridge when the river was low.  The rattiest gun I ever saw in the woods.  Every one of them dropped instantly and never moved.  A couple were huge bragging bucks, but they couldn't stand after taking a cut shell in the chest. -- With a broadside shot in the ribs, using fine shot, they kill deer as quick as a 22-250 kills ground hogs, but mess up very little meat.  If the shooter messes up and hits in a meaty area, the impact is normally enough to deck a deer, yet meat waste is supprisingly low, for the massive force delivered by a cut shell.
Veral Smith

Offline Drilling Man

  • GBO Subscriber
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3432
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 07:21:40 am »
  When we were kids, we carried cut shells around to shoot things with.  My dad was the one to show us how to do it, and he said, he learned it as a kid, as they rarely had any slugs around.  Sooo, folks been doing this for a VERY long time.

  DM

Offline spruce

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3615
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2009, 08:41:38 am »
Just a footnote - they still are legal to use for deer in Michigan during the firearm deer season.  However, you may not possess them in the field for 5 days prior to firearm deer season and of course, you must have a valid firearm deer license to possess them afield during the season.

Were widely used during the depression because people had no money to buy ammo, and during WWII when very little sporting ammo was available.

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1714
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2009, 11:57:44 pm »
   All one needs to make a cut shell is a sharp knife, and they don't carry well in the pocket, because they can break easy.  I've always cut them just before dropping into the chamber.

  I came along in 1941, and the great depression started in 1929, so I only witnessed some of the aftershocks, but I heard a lot from kinfolk.  It was just exactly like the one we are in right now, and this one has all the indicators of the 29 one.  As bad that is.  Only this time we are going lower, a lot lower.  Tighten your belts folks, and learn all the tricks you can!

  Maybe I should say a little more.  In the 29 depression people had no money because banks wouldn't lend.  Banks quit lending so they could foreclose and reap a huge robbery.  That's where we are to day with the inability to produce our needs added.  Our factorys are in foriegn lands and the knowledge of how to produce what we need has left us, while few know how to grow food of any kind.  In 29 everything was in place to produce, just no money.  A few comunities set up scrip to pay each other and were the first to pull out of it.  ---   We can give full thanks to the illegal control of our money by the foriegn owned un american, unconstitutional, Federal Reserve banking cartel.  They do need to steal our guns before they can make it work as planned.
Veral Smith

Offline Silvertp

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (10)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2009, 03:07:02 pm »

Veral, thanks for the post.  Takes me back a long ways when I was a kid growing up in Michigan.

My dad showed me the "cut shell" technique.  I used to shoot them out of my single shot break-open Stevens 16ga.

One day I was out shooting ducks and was trying for a double with a quick reload technique.  I got a little flustered loading the 2nd shell and when I closed the action the shell got pinched between the receiver and bbl.  I quickly got the shell seated fully.  I swung ahead of the 2nd duck and tripped the trigger.

That bird literally blew apart.  It was about 30 yards out but, as you said, it looked like I had shot it from 12" away.  All I recovered was the head and two wings, the body was missing. 

When I ejected the shell, only the brass and about 1/2 inch of the paper hull came out.  The rest had gone down the bore and centered my duck.  Not even enough of it left to make soup.

Silvertp

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1714
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2009, 11:16:05 pm »
  The implication I get here is, you are convinced they are deadly and accurate!
Veral Smith

Offline woodsrunner

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 112
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2009, 05:57:25 pm »
Don't pressures really go up when a cut shell hits a full choke? --woodsrunner
Good Hunting--Woodsrunner

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1714
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2009, 10:05:19 pm »
  There are no indicators to make one believe so.  I don't believe there is any difference than if the shell were fired normally, and if so it wouldn't matter.  You see, by the time a shot charge, cut shell or any kind of projectile reaches the end of the barrel pressures have dropped WAY below maximum chamber pressure, which occures when the projectile, or shot charge is only inches from the case, and with some loads, perhaps while the charge is still partly inside the case.  A better and more accurate way to visulize what happens when the choke is hit is that the constriction slows the projectile a little, maybe. -  In my more salad years I made up some slugs which were just under bore diameter, without lube grooves or lubrication of any kind.  When they hit a full choke there was pretty heavy leading with just one shot, but no indicators of pressure changing, and the choke did not get larger, or banna peel, which would probably have happened if sizing pressure against the barrel would have been anything like a normal person would suspect.  The choke on this particular 16 guage single shot, was precisely 18 1/2 inches from the breech, which is where I had sawed the barrel off.  I didn't like the open bore, so split the barrel with a hack saw, length wise, for about 1 1/4 inches, closed it up a bit tighter than a full choke and gas welded it using chrome moly rod.  I then squeezed the choke round as I could and polished the inside.  It definately shot extra full, but a bit to one side, as I didn't get it perfectly straight.  One thing for sure, my weld wasn't as strong as the original barrel, it was extra full, yet it didn't show stress from my stupid slug experimenting.  Read those last three words again before you try duplicating what I did!

  I smile every time I see the interest in this post.  Makes me feel good to be an american with all the rest of you!  To my mind there is a bit of freedom in just knowing this little trick, even though one may not ever need to use it.  I haven't shot one for probably 20 years, except to show some young hunters here, but I feel good knowing this trick and spreading it around. 

  A couple of days ago it occured to me that I hadn't rightly explained what happens when cut shells are used in auto loaders, and to a lesser degree in pump guns.  The short stub shell cocks a bit and binds, when the ejector jerks to hard on one side, and normally stays in the gun.  It's a hassle to get the empty out with an auto, but worth it if you must get feed yourself and shot is the only thing you have when a big animal shows up for dinner.  With a pump, the hull comes out fairly easy by jiggling the action a few times.  With a bolt gun this will happen naturally, and with any break barrel gun, there are no problems with ejection.
Veral Smith

Offline Badnews Bob

  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
  • Richmond Kentucky
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2009, 06:09:49 pm »
I really like this ideal and even thou it is not required now it would be a handy bit of info when ya need it. What I was wondering thou how much do you leave uncut? I want to try a couple out of my NEF 20 gauge, Just so I'll know.

BTW if things go bad that little NEF will be with me for sure.
Badnews Bob
AE-2 USN retired

Offline 45-70.gov

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7359
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2009, 06:13:39 pm »
sounds  like  a good deer load  in   kalifornia

if  you  use  steel  shot

now  you  can't  hunt with  ANY  lead  any  where  in  kalifornia
       any  where  the  condors  fly  that is
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1714
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2009, 10:07:39 pm »
Re: Badnews Bobs question.  I'm glad you asked.

  The cut should go a bit over halfway around the shell, and best position lengthwise, is near the upper part of the cushion web work which is visable through many semi transparent loads.  Make the cut holding the shell just like you would if slicing a carrot, thumb backing the shell.  But cut only through the hull, not the wad, as we want the wad to remain intact.  It does the stearing of the back end.  Work your cut a bit over halfway around and at a slight angle, so that when a second cut is made on the opposite side a thing strip of shell remains between the two cuts.  The cuts don't have to be neat and straight.  If you see you are running at too much angle, or not enough bend your cut till the strips are about what you want. This strip between where the two cuts pass, should be anywhere from  1/16 to 1/8 inch wide and about 1/4 inch long if the strip is close to 1/8 wide.  If your strip comes out closer to 1/16 wide the two cuts should pass each other a bit less than 1/4 inch, so the shell doesn't become shaky.  The purpose of the strips is to hold the shell together till fired.  When the shell is fired, the strips break, or are pulled in two.  They should break with very little resistence so the crimp isn't loosened, or even completely released.  If you should slip up and cut one side too thin or completely off, no problem, so long as it doesn't have to stand recoil.  As long as one side remains intact it will hold the shell together if it  is fired first in a double barrel, or shot in any single barrel.  If you should cut it completely in two, which isn't likely, it is probably best to toss it, because if the shot slides forward, leaving an air space between it and the powder charge you COULD run into pressure problems when the hammer falls, though I've seen a coupld rounds fired this way without pressure signs.   If I accidenty cut one completely in half in the field, and were short on ammo, I would slip a grass stem in along side the shell so it had to be forced a bit to chamber, thus holding the shot back against the powder charge.

  Looks like the old saying, a picture is worth a thousand words is going to stand here if I don't quit typing and post this!  --  Kinda funny.  I could demonstrate the cutting and shooting in 20 seconds and have time left over, without speaking a word.  It is that simple.
 
Veral Smith

Offline Bitterroot Bob

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 256
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2009, 04:29:19 am »
Howdy,
I've shot several out of an Eastern Arms 20-ga single-shot gun. They were accurate and would punch an inch wide and four-inch deep hole in the end of a pine log at thirty yards.
I never heard the excuse that slugs were too expensive or unavailable during the Depression or during WW2. Grandpa told me that during the early bird season the game wardens would check your ammo to make sure you weren't carrying slugs. If you spotted a deer and the coast was clear, it didn't take but a couple seconds to turn the bird load into a buck slug. A lot of pre-season deer were packed home using this technique.

Bitterroot

Offline billy_56081

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7520
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2009, 04:45:15 am »
WOW I have heard of this before, but always thought is was an urbin legend. Thanks for sharing Veral and how about someone post som pics.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Badnews Bob

  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3036
  • Gender: Male
  • Richmond Kentucky
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2009, 08:38:54 am »
Thanks Veral. I understood the how just wasn't sure on the how much. :) If someone could post a picture I'd really get it. I may make some up and try them soon, My camera is broke so I might get a friend to take a picture or tow and post them. Results to follow.
Badnews Bob
AE-2 USN retired

Offline vdubluv

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2009, 08:43:21 am »
I was refered to this post from my post about cutting the "end" off cheap birdshot shells, dumping the shot out and pushing in a round ball or cast slug onto the wad. I posted in the NEF shotgun forum since I have a pardner single shot 12 I want to do this in. Any info on this idea? I've read about this being done many times but never any details. I figure it's like making a mini muzzleloader out of a shotshell. maybe a 12 gauge lubed patch with round ball or a 7/8oz. lee mould slug?  Surely a < 1.33 OZ. ball over 3 dram equivalent would be plenty safe pressure wise, in a cylinder bored(sawed off),  since I have lots of 1.25 oz. over 3.75 dram eq. 2.75 inch shells. Hmmm?
Ready to fight for Freedom!

Offline rio grande

  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1263
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2009, 05:57:27 am »
 'over-pressure'.
 I need more evidence it is safe.

Offline Hodr

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 617
  • Gender: Male
  • Blinded by law
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2009, 07:08:02 am »
I went hunting with my father in California around 50 years ago. One man in the group was fresh out of the Army and didn't have a lot of money.  He had a shotgun (12 guage) but no rifle.  He cut his shotgun shell and took a deer down one shot with it. For the life of me I can't remember how he cut it.  Veral has been very helpful in his description but I can't help thinking some one with hands on experience could do a set of pictures or short video showing step by step.  Maybe some one knows of a link showing this.
Thanks for your help

blindhari
TANSTAAFL

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1714
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2009, 10:44:15 pm »
  About dumping shot out and loading a ball.  It is safe if you load a ball lighter than the shot you dump, and if the ball is somehow held tight against the wad when it's fired.  No pressure jump, relitive to maximum chamber pressure, happens at the choke.
  If one ever tries a cut shell he wouldn't worry or mess with balls, which won't kill half as well, or shoot nearly as accurate.
Veral Smith

Offline vdubluv

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2009, 08:36:25 am »
I think you're right Veral about the cut shells being more accurate. I've tried a few different types of birdshot cut different ways now. Some economy federal #8s, cut both sides with a 1/4 inch left between the cuts, are giving me 1.5" groups at 30 yards from a NEF pardner,modified choke. I did order a cheap 7/8 oz. Lee slug mold to replace 1.25 oz shot loads just to play around with.I'l just remelt the lead shot to cast em. I'm thinking maybe dripping some wax off a candle would hold the slug in tight against the wad. If not I'll just put some felt wads(if needed) under the slug and recrimp. Sure is cheaper and more fun than buying a 45-70. Well maybe not more fun. ;D
Ready to fight for Freedom!

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8713
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2009, 09:21:42 am »
Wait a minute,
My uncle showed me the Cut shell thing and I looked at it as a way to bring down a deer in a survival situation.
But the bore of most 12 ga shells is .729 the wad is .730 and the skirt will flare out to .740 at least the ones fired from Dad Over bored gun do.  But the outside shell of a 12 ga is larger then the inside of a 10 ga. 775.
You mean to tell me that firing a .775+ plastic coated slug is not going to spike pressure?
Is there a recoil guage that you can set a shot gun into and fire a standard uncut round and then one cut and see if there is a change?

Offline 45-70.gov

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7359
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2009, 10:52:41 am »
can  we  get  some one on  here  to do  this on  YOUTUBE!!

or  at least  find  a link  where  it has been done.....i looked  with no luck

that  load  in a coach  double  would really be  a close range  stopping gun
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27326
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2009, 11:06:57 am »
we always called it ringing the shell and you better not get caught doing it at a turkey shoot !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Veral

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1714
    • Lead Bullet Technology
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2009, 11:07:35 pm »
  Re: mcwoodducks concerns about pressure.  -- If there is any increase in pressure it sure isn't visable nor can any change in recoil be felt.  I would surmise that pressures would be far lower than the old shot shells which had the bare shot rubbing the bore, as they were when cutting shells first started.  Those were all paper hulls and roll crimps, which changed to star crimps, which both slipped through the bore so easily that the crimps never fail unless the bore is rusty and rough.
  With modern plastic hulls, and the strong star crimps, we still have a very weak resistence to more pressure.  i.e.  If pressure were higher because the largely oversize hull were dragging in the bore, the shot would just squirt out and leave the tube inside the bore.  But that doesn't happen.  Never once for me in my 50 years of messing with them occasionally.  Still, look down the bore to be sure if you don't see a slug make impact at your target.
Veral Smith

Offline 45-70.gov

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7359
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut shells for shotguns
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2009, 03:51:27 pm »
a  slug with  an over preasure  safety valve   nice concept

better check  make  sure  barrel is clear befor the nxt shot
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.