Author Topic: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.  (Read 11969 times)

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Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2010, 11:23:55 am »
Div Arty, If you have a metal lathe or wood lathe with a four-jaw chuck, you can adjust the chuck to form a socket with the necessary offset to hold the hub end of the spokes that will allow you to turn the tenons at the required angle. I made my first spokes by making a socket from wood that was held in a homemade wood lathe by a standard wood turning spur and it worked fine.
Max

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2010, 11:23:55 am »
 

Offline carronader

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2010, 11:42:43 am »
more info , good source , again just one more way of doing things , no matter how big the reputation . his is big big.
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Offline Double D

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2010, 12:01:29 pm »
If you visit some of the model wagon making forums the loudest crankiest running battle is the right way and the wrong way to make wheels, all with historical reference and citations. 

No one on those forums are willing to admit there is more than one way to build wheels, always has been. simple or complicated, detailed or functional.








For simplified versions try this method.





This wheel was made by drilling holes in the nave and fellos at an angle and using dowels for spokes, and it has dish.




How you make the wheel depends on how much detail you want to to put in the project.






Offline carronader

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2010, 02:45:27 pm »
more joints   was hoping for more of our forum's people  maybe showing how many ways there are and different levels of difficulty will encourage others.
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Offline Div Arty

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2010, 04:28:37 pm »
Thanks Max, that's a good tip.  Sometimes when you are hunting deer all you see is quail.

After the felloes are cut.  You glue them to a piece of cardboard which is glued to a section of plywood.  Don't have to use much glue, just enough to keep from slipping.



Then with a plunge router, cut the center out.  Two or three passes depending on thickness.



Next you make the outer cut same as before.





Then peel the cardboard off.   Probably now would be time to drill the ends of the felloes for the connecting dowels.  I had trouble lining the holes up, so I opt for joining biscuits.  Gives a little leeway.  

Catch you later on the hubs.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2010, 05:02:03 pm »
Cat, patience man patience , but you being ... <BS deleted ;) > ... :P I shall explain. It's a backing plate for mounting in a wood lathe , removal of material for the use of ...
...

That defines it!  Thanks, I figured it was one of the two, and made the inference from the text from cutting with a bandsaw - which in this case did NOT extend to cutting the circular feature - which could have been done on a larger diameter if a lathe of size was not available.

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2010, 05:07:07 pm »
It seems like everyone uses the tools they are familiar with.  Bandsaw is my specialty.  Router is other's specialty.
There are many different ways to achieve the same outcome.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2010, 05:14:48 pm »
Agree, and what a collection of pix! And technical hints!
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2010, 05:51:19 pm »
Well the router method looks like the way to go!

the rig I was planing on building to fit the wood lathe would have been a lot of work

sometimes we over complicate things.......
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Offline Div Arty

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2010, 10:00:46 pm »

On to the hubs.

I made the bands first.  Thought it would be easier to cut the hubs to fit, in case the bands were a little off.

The first two shots are of the bender.  Looks like nothing to it.  Well, the set up directions have a little bit to be desired. 





The next one is for correction.  A little huff and puff and heat and hammer.  They worked.



On to the mortising tool.  I only have a couple pictures, was a little busy that day.  The jig that's holding the hub is the one I used on my 5th scale carriage.  I did have to extend it a bit.  The first row of outside holes had to be tapered 6 deg. for the dish.  That was done by tilting the table.  The inside row was straight, the same with the middle row.  This setup has to be rigid, it takes a lot of pressure to bore those square holes into oak.  You can see that I had to shim the bottom of the hub to take out the flex.





Well that's about it for me.  I'll have to start pondering Max Caliber's suggestion with the metal lathe.  Get back to you when I have some more.   
                                                           Ron




Offline carronader

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2010, 04:11:35 am »
Cat ... you asked about that bandsaw jig , hope you ain't looking for anything wonderfull  is very simple.  I found I couldn't get close enough to blade with the store bought , remember I'm doing small wheel , so I just made up with piece of half inch ply , hole for pivot , and two captive nuts epoxyed in. You could just as well mark out angles on the ply and mount a piece of wood as the fence.
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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2010, 05:00:51 am »
Cat , I did cut the 5.5 inch outside rim on the bandsaw- quarter inch blade   mounted it in wood lathe just to sand it.  came out good.  problem was ...damn thing was too weak   crap glue  used...standard wood glue -gorilla glue -and now got Titebond 11...ok  ok   should have bought American first...I like this Titebond........unless anybody knows different ???????     two pics  Store bought junk   and to my eyes drop dead gorgeous museum piece.  Maybe surprisingly the top 4 inch wheel is from a CVA cannon kit  the barrel is a 50 cal BP proof of good quality    the carriage and wheels are really bad.   the other wheels are racked -joints opening up and not very strong , materials are ok , just bad build.
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Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2010, 08:50:36 am »
Here is the setup in my 6-inch lathe showing how an offset tenon may be turned. A piece of board chucked up with a slot to receive the spoke tenon also works. This process will not work with very small spokes unless you have a very small lathe. ;D



Here are old style tenon cutters that can still be found cheaply at flea markets. The tool on the right cuts a cone on the end of the spoke which is required to start the tenon cutter on the left, which will cut eight tenon sizes from 3/8 to 1 inch. Both tools are made to be used with a hand brace.


Max

Offline Div Arty

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2010, 10:09:56 am »

Max, that's what I call an answer.  Next best, would be you come on over and do it for me.  Thank's again.





Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2010, 11:16:19 am »
Max,
Thanks for posting the photo of the antique tenon cutter, I've never had the opportunity to see one before.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2010, 12:09:48 pm »


Just one more way to build a hub boring jig. The index wheel on the right is screwed to the hub with two small screws or can be lightly nailed on. The top plate is 1/8 inch thick aluminum and is the guide for the mortising chisel. The chisel is a snug slip fit in the slot and is what keeps everything in allignment while boring the holes. The jig sits loose on the drill press table and since it is loose, it can be shaken or rapped with a piece of wood to help remove a sticky chisel.



The small horizontal pieces of wood on the left side are opposing wedges to take up the end play.





The motises are 3/8 x 1 1/4 inch.








Max

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2010, 12:17:35 pm »
That's just plain neat!  Are the metal bands welded at the seam?
Zulu
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2010, 12:51:51 pm »
Yeah, Max, that is kind of neat; a fantastic kind of neat! ;D
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2010, 01:58:27 pm »
Max those machines are very cool !
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Offline carronader

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2010, 02:39:12 pm »
Damn good jig Max   you know would make the job easy , even with a hammer and hand chisel.
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Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2010, 07:13:08 am »
Zulu, The bands are welded. The inner bands are heated and installed, the outer bands are pressed or hammered on.
Max

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2010, 07:25:11 am »
Zulu, The bands are welded. The inner bands are heated and installed, the outer bands are pressed or hammered on.

Max,
When you heat the bands, how do you keep from burning the wood?
Zulu
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Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2010, 08:38:22 am »
Zulu, On small hubs like this I carefully measure the circumference of the hub where the band will go then make the band with an inside circumference the same as that of the hub. Heat the band evenly and install. Heat to the point of burning the hub is not necessary. Hub bands do not have to be put on as tightly as tires. Three or four equally spaced small nails through the bands will hold them in place in case of shrinkage over time. It is very important that the hub be as dry as possible before putting on the bands.
Max

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2010, 01:42:17 pm »
I find it difficult to believe no one out there has used wood glue before   this thread supposed to be about sharing info   it's not looking good
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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2010, 04:12:53 pm »
I find it difficult to believe no one out there has used wood glue before   this thread supposed to be about sharing info   it's not looking good

I like Titebond or Elmer's wood glue.  I don't care for Gorilla glue.  I used that when I laminated some white oak for a limber I built and it had some seperation problems down the line.
I hear there are some excellent epoxies but I have not used them.
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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2010, 08:06:19 pm »
Max,
Are you going to show us how you make spokes????
Zulu
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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2010, 11:33:50 am »
Titebond way to go.........small felloes with not a lot of surface area to form a bond needs good glue , Gorilla glue didn't hack it , shouldn't be relying on the glue only but it's still got a job to do.Also tried PUR 501 German Gorilla type glue , not up to it either. Glue must be important to you zulu , you are laminating.
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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2010, 12:47:30 pm »
PIC 1  Hubs ready for wood lathe   axle nearly finished    will pilot drill hubs for reaming on lathe.  PIC 2 tried out reamer on oak , sycamore and mahogany. oak too ' rough '  sycamore ' not strong enough '  mahogany ' way to go '   my opinions.   Not got a milling machine , so hand reaming and shaping. bought a cheap chinese reamer , chose it for profile and had a good idea I could sharpen and change profile to suit my axle with a good swiss file , worked out pretty good ...those suckers will  spin well   and true on that axle .Axle is true to period , origin and calibre of barrel. maybe cut outs for trails a little tight to suit the trunnions. ::)
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Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2010, 10:21:16 am »
Max,
Are you going to show us how you make spokes????
Zulu

Zulu, No! But here is some information. The Civil War field gun carriage wheel spokes are the easiest to make. They can be sawed out of boards that have been cut to the finished thickness. One edge is straight for the full length and the other is tapered from just above the hub mortise shoulder to the felloes end. The tenon that goes into the felloes can be turned as shown on an earlier post. After both tenons are cut, then a router or shaper can be used to round the corners or they can be done with hand tools. Study the picture below on how the spokes are made and fitted. Make a couple of extra spokes for each wheel because they are easy to screw up (at least they are for me). Also, cut the spoke blanks about one inch longer for holding and final fitting. Finish one spoke and try the fit into the hub mortise before cutting all the spokes, better to ruin one spoke than ruin them all. Go slow! 



Below is a very simple jig for cutting the spoke tenons for the hub mortises. Just a piece of board screwed to a piece of 2X4. Two cleats are screwed to the board at the angle of dish. Put the straight side of the spoke against one on the cleats and hold it with the C-clamp and wedge, then run the jig through the saw, remove the spoke, reverse it and clamp the straight side to the other cleat then run it through the saw. Need to go slow here so the tenon is not cut too thin. The sides of the tenon should be a tight fit in the mortises but not so tight that they will spring the web between the holes into the adjacent holes.


Max

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Re: Making Field Cannon Carriage Wheels.
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2010, 11:55:56 am »
 ;D   I like it.   No!   I'm not going to show how I make spokes either , a lot of hand tools and a combination of the many methods to be found on the net. 
 Titebond Glue 11   did some tests with scraps of different woods and really good results. You need to work clean though , leaves marks if not cleaned off.Could only be a problem if using high quality wood that's not getting painted.
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