Author Topic: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)  (Read 11221 times)

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Offline Swampman

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2012, 02:31:36 am »
High velocity damages more meat than low velocity.  Dead is dead.  Better to waste a shoulder than lose the whole animal with cartridges that won't do the job.  I use either a .30-06 or my .45-70.  Dead is dead...
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2012, 02:31:36 am »
 

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2012, 03:23:51 am »
well im not a nuckle dragger or a 130 lb cammo wearing hunter but ive sure been know to shoot some deer at a 100 yards with various magnum rounds. Are they needed? Nope, surely not at those ranges anyway. But when were hunting many times 400 yard shots present themselves too and ill argue till im dead that magnums do have there place for that. Bottom line is ive killed hundreds of whitetails with many differnent caliber guns at about any range from 10 yards to 500 plus. Where you put the bullet means a hell of alot more then what gun or caliber your using when it comes to meat damage. Ive blown the hell out of deer with 243s and even 3030s and have also shot deer at a 100 yards with the 300 wby without ruining a thing but the ribs. I kind of agree with smampy here. Dead is dead. Are you more interested in 2 or 3 extra lbs of burger or in making a quick clean kill. Me i detest tracking deer. Im not up to it much physicaly anymore and i also hate the idea of a deer running off hurting so if im hunting an area where 300 yards shots are definatley on the plate youll find me with one of those macho magnums. I see many advantages to them. there flatter shooting and harder hitting and few disadvantages. About the only ones i can come up with are ammo cost and recoil. Which brings us to the real argument guys have against them. Id bet 90 percent of the guys who preach against them are guys that really dont shoot. Even a 300 wby sure doesnt hurt you phyiscaly to shoot. It my belch and buck a bit but its more a mental thing then a physical thing and anyone that is willing to put in a bit of time shooting one discovers that in short order. Sure there are the 10 percent who can physical do it due to injury or old age but i chuckle at 40 year old guys that claim something like a 7mag will beat the hell out of you. Best check the colar of your panties. I may not be a knuckle dragging paramilitary goon but i also dont drive a prius to my hunting spot. 
ScootRD:

The piece on AccurateShooter is essentially the same as what's on "6br," as well as comments in Boston's Gun Bible (a VERY good publication written by a VERY well respected guy, who wrote it under a pseudonym).  ALL agree, and ballistics and harvest data have pretty much proven, that not only is the 7MM-08 as good or better in hunting scenarios...but is what the military SHOULD have gone to in the 1950's.  Boston, in particular, lays out a host of technical reasons why this is the case.

Swampman:

Your comments are puzzling.  Are you a killer?  Or a hunter? ???   Because a HUNTER wants (a) to harvest the animal ethically (meaning, use ENOUGH gun to make a clean kill so you aren't tracking a deer hit by a quartering shot from a puny .223 or something), but at the same time (b) WANTS TO EAT THE MEAT (meaning not SO MUCH gun that he's going to bloodshot and tear up the meat). 

Blowing the living daylights out of anything should NOT be one's goal if they want to fill their freezer with the maximum amount of meat.


If I run into another knuckle-dragging idiot (ALWAYS a visitor...never a local) here in the Adirondacks sitting at the edge of a 100 yard field holding a .300 RUM he intends to "hunt" a 130-180 lb whitetail with, I'm going to explode...  Well, I MIGHT explode...the deer definitely will.

Why is it that THAT GUY is always 5'7", 130 lbs, wearing "tactical gear," and has a nervous twitch and a goatee??
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Offline Swampman

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2012, 04:19:36 am »
I'm a 300 Weatherby fan....it's awesome.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline John R.

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2012, 07:15:58 am »
I own both, and like both, but for whitetails 98% of the time you will find me with a Rem. LSS Mtn. rifle in 7mm/08. It shoots 140 Accubonds MOA all day long, sometimes better. I've been shooting the 7mm/08 since 1982, and it's a stone cold killer of whitetails and hogs. YMMV
 

Offline Dalgo

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2012, 08:11:25 pm »
I'm so glad you brought this thread to life!  I own a .300 Weatherby caliber gun. Love it. I also have a 7mm-08 and a .30-06. I have used them extensively, and have decidedly come to a positive conclusion as which one is better for deer sized game. I really think that either the 7mm-08 or the .30-06 is better. There! I'm glad I got it off my chest!


Dalgo.
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2012, 03:48:22 am »
probably true for 95 percent of the hunters out there. Most never shoot a deer out past 200 yards anyway other then with a keyboard and most dont shoot enough to ever master a 300 wby. But when the deer are way out there and in the hands of someone can really shoot it the 300wby is a killing machine and with proper bullet placement at the worse will maybe cause you to loose 2lbs of hamburger. If you dont shoot past 200 and cant handle the recoil it sure doesnt give you the right to slam someone who can. Hunting is a personal thing. If im competent enough to hit deer a 100 percent of the time with precision at 500 yards and use equiptment capable of doing the job does that make me less of a hunter then someone who uses a 270 that they may shoot 2 boxes of shells through in a year and shoot there deer at 200yards. Id bet in most cases im doing alot less tracking of wounded animals them most of them are. Nothing makes me more angry then a guy who because he cant get the job done automaticaly thinks that nobody elses should be doing it. I can drive a car fast but i cant drive as well as Jimmy Johnson. Does that mean he shouldnt drive over 70 mph????
I'm so glad you brought this thread to life!  I own a .300 Weatherby caliber gun. Love it. I also have a 7mm-08 and a .30-06. I have used them extensively, and have decidedly come to a positive conclusion as which one is better for deer sized game. I really think that either the 7mm-08 or the .30-06 is better. There! I'm glad I got it off my chest!


Dalgo.
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Offline mcbammer

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2012, 03:59:10 am »
probably true for 95 percent of the hunters out there. Most never shoot a deer out past 200 yards anyway other then with a keyboard and most dont shoot enough to ever master a 300 wby. But when the deer are way out there and in the hands of someone can really shoot it the 300wby is a killing machine and with proper bullet placement at the worse will maybe cause you to loose 2lbs of hamburger. If you dont shoot past 200 and cant handle the recoil it sure doesnt give you the right to slam someone who can. Hunting is a personal thing. If im competent enough to hit deer a 100 percent of the time with precision at 500 yards and use equiptment capable of doing the job does that make me less of a hunter then someone who uses a 270 that they may shoot 2 boxes of shells through in a year and shoot there deer at 200yards. Id bet in most cases im doing alot less tracking of wounded animals them most of them are. Nothing makes me more angry then a guy who because he cant get the job done automaticaly thinks that nobody elses should be doing it. I can drive a car fast but i cant drive as well as Jimmy Johnson. Does that mean he shouldnt drive over 70 mph? ???
I'm so glad you brought this thread to life!  I own a .300 Weatherby caliber gun. Love it. I also have a 7mm-08 and a .30-06. I have used them extensively, and have decidedly come to a positive conclusion as which one is better for deer sized game. I really think that either the 7mm-08 or the .30-06 is better. There! I'm glad I got it off my chest!


Dalgo.
[/quote    Its   all   about   recoil  .     turning    my    shoulder    3   shades   of    purple   is    not   for   me .
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Offline Nudge6771

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2012, 05:06:33 am »
High velocity damages more meat than low velocity.  Dead is dead.  Better to waste a shoulder than lose the whole animal with cartridges that won't do the job.  I use either a .30-06 or my .45-70.  Dead is dead...

 :o :o :o   !!!!!!!

Oh yeah, I know!  It's crazy how hard it is to kill deer!  Be honest, I consider 45-70 to be a decent 'women & youth' caliber, or if you're just an effeminate male, cuz I don't even look at a deer unless I'm packing a .458 Lott.  I mean, you KNOW how hard their "outer shell" is.  Besides, what if he charges you after you take the shot?  You can't risk it. ???

Besides, some of the deer around here wear Kevlar vests, so bullet selection is key.  My preference? Incendiary rounds.

Because it's NOT about being a good and skillful shot and filling your freezer with meat.  It's about making sure that deer is blown to pieces on the field of battle, right Swampman?  These deer trespassers MUST be stopped, damnit.  >:(

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2012, 04:28:46 pm »
How did we go from 7-08 Vs 30-06  to you can 't kill a deer with anything less than a Bazooka.
Now deer hunting means different things to different people.
Growing up Hunting in NY State we had a drive and stand and shots were never very far.  100 yards was an extremely long shot.  Most of my Dad's friends hunted with 30-06, 308, 8X57, or other popular commercial round based on the 30-06 or 308 case.  The 30-30 was considered a kids rifle.  Really much more than is needed to shoot a deer at 30 yards.  My one uncle (dad's best friend) had a 222 Rem Mag he used for deer and it worked.  Would a 357 Mag, or little other pistol round  have worked there. Yea.
Now on our farm in NC we can have some distance as the woods are open and the fields are a whole lot larger.  200+ yards is possible if you want.
When I went to Montana and saw the wide open spaces I could understand why they like 7mm mag and other flatter shooting rounds not to mention that these same rounds can be used for other western game like Antelope, Elk, Goat, sheep and Moose.
45-70 can go from mild to wild and everything inbetween is a great swamp round in it has a good amount of energy and the blunt flat nose transfers that energy to the deer and knocks them down.  With the pointed higher velocity rounds they tend to zing through the deer and  not knock them down.  In the dense swamps of the east coast the deer can be lost easy and sometimes a larger than needed caliber helps to anchor the deer to fill the freezer.  Not to mention the larger than needed calibers work to kill black bear, again not hard to kill them but the larger the hole through their lungs the faster they lay down and expire.   The excessive fat makes it hard to track them as it plugs 30 caliber and smaller holes.
I think you will find a following of defferent calibers and bullet designs depending on where you go in the county based on the terrain.
Where a 30-06 with a big round nose is used in the swamps that same 30-06 with a pointed bullet is used in the open fields of the south. 
The 7-08 was considerd a kids and youth round has taken hold as a great round in the semi open fields of the south and mid west. Geography and hunting method are going to dictate the caliber and design of the gun.
 
 
 

Offline Nudge6771

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2012, 08:43:03 pm »
 
The 7-08 was considerd a kids and youth round has taken hold as a great round in the semi open fields of the south and mid west.

I was right with you until you dropped that one.  I don't know who you were referencing when you explained how the 7MM-08 "was considered," but I've never met a human being bright enough to count to three who thought that.  Lemme put this to bed right here...the 7MM-08 is in large part a BETTER round than it's chubby parent.  The .308 can't outperform 140's out of a 7MM-07 until it starts pushing 180 grain bullets.  And even then, if you have a need to push 180's, the .308 is a poor 'compromise' choice, as a .30-06 or .300 Win Mag are what you want if you need to push a pill that size.  BTW, this is just as the need to push 220's should make one reach for a .338 over the .30-06...because the '06 tops it's energy out in most loads at 190-200 grains.  So thereafter, yer just hanging in for more recoil and no real increase in killing power.

The 6mmbr website offer some additional reasons why the 7MM-08 is superior to it's tubby father, as does "Boston's Gun Bible," which among other thing states, "...the 7MM-08 is what the military SHOULD have gone to in the 1950's."

How would it be, that a round which is at BEST 10% better in SOME loads (.308 win.) should be thought of one way, and the other (7mm-08) considered a "women and youth" caliber?  There are just too many damn fools trolli'n round the internet who don't REALLY know a dang thing about ballistics...that's how.  Perhaps it's because the recoil is considerably milder (efficiency!) and most lug-nuts don't feel they're men if they don't come home a little sore after 3 boxes at the range.

It's a bit like saying the 500 horse power car is for 'manly men'...but the 465 horse power one next to it is for grandma to drive.

Oh, and I should add that I have only ever seen two 180-gr .308 loads which could match the ballistics of a 7MM-08 firing 168 Berger VLD's (factory load by CorBon).  Only two.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2012, 04:36:19 pm »
Nudge 6771,
It was my father's hunting friends that thought that deer equaled a 30 caliber, that the 243 and the 25-06 were Varmint rounds.  And at 14 years old there there was no way I was going ot be shooting a kids, womans or varmint round.
The 7-08 had just come out and they wrote about the lighter bullets and the low recoil and thought kids.  Dad wanted to get me one at first till I said I wanted an 06.  The Gun Rags of the mid 80's were touting the 7-08 as what I said a kids and ladies round and showed it with  many deer, proghorn and I think a couple black bears.
We went to the local gun shop and looked at an 06.  Dad had me cycle the bolt with my head down looking through the sights and I hit my self in the nose with the bolt, drawing blood, so a short action it was, since dad had a 308, so did I. 
Had Dad had a 7-08 (not available in his Sako Deluxe of 1967) then I would have one too.
And you state the 168 grain bullet from the 7-08 and it is probably a great bullet flys far and fast with little drift or drop.
And if you hunt in open spaces that matters.
If you hunt is dense woods the heavier bullet with the blunt end matters.  If I could have gotten a 358 Win instead I would have.  Not because it will plow through brush, it will not but it transfers more energy now to the animal and anchors them in a place where deer can get lost quickly and you second guess your self of a hit.
Now back to the 7-08 it is an updated short action version of the world class 7X57 that has killed everything all over the planet.
With that said I have been thinkng of a custom 7TCU in a CZ  527 rifle for deer and pigs. 
Now the debate between 7mm (284) and 30 caliber (308) has been the Ford Vs Chevy argument of the gun world.  Some people just like one over the other for no real reason.  No matter what facts are put infront of them.  ;)
Whne I wrote earlier about a comprimise  between the two rounds being the 308, I could have just as easily picked the 7X57. For a few other reasons all valid.
 
 
 
 
 

Offline Nudge6771

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2012, 01:28:00 pm »
McWoodduck,

That's a good story 'bout nailin' yer nose...the kind of memory that burns a place and time and the company you were with in your mind.  A good Dad story too...can't say my childhood yielded many of those.

In my first post on this thread I mentioned that I only own two high-powered's -- 7MM-08 and .30-06, both Rem 700's.  Like most people will agree, I am of the mind that the .30-06 can LITERALLY be one's only rifle, irrespective of where you live and hunt.  So effective and flexible, it's boring.

But truth be told, if it's just whitetail I'm after, I'll sooner pick up the 7MM-08.  I mean, the damn thing is a JOY to shoot.  I'd venture to say (having not shot EVERY caliber out there, but probably most) that it might just offer the very best balance of power vs recoil of anything around.  (Interestingly, I have been TOLD that up the scale in size, the .35 Whelen offers a similar balance of power vs recoil in it's category.  But I wouldn't know.)

My '06 is set up to shoot 180's (Elk, Black bear) but I've got 150's as well as a back up round to my 140 gr 7MM-08 deer choice.  I mean, it's a little crazy to some I guess, but the '06 actually does backup duty for the other one (whitetails ONLY).

So suffice to say, with my 12 gauge, .22LR, 7MM-08 and .30-06...I feel like there ain't a thing I couldn't do.

Offline jabey9210

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2012, 06:30:53 pm »
 


 Lemme put this to bed right here...the 7MM-08 is in large part a BETTER round than it's chubby parent.  The .308 can't outperform 140's out of a 7MM-07 until it starts pushing 180 grain bullets.  And even then, if you have a need to push 180's, the .308 is a poor 'compromise' choice,

The 6mmbr website offer some additional reasons why the 7MM-08 is superior to it's tubby father, as does "Boston's Gun Bible," which among other thing states, "...the 7MM-08 is what the military SHOULD have gone to in the 1950's."


Finally someone to agree with I've always said that in the "same parent case "the 7mm will always out perform the 30 cal.  The 7mm always has better a ballistic coifficient gets higher velocity and carries more energy down range even if you go up in bullet weight with the 30 in the same parent case which ever on it may be (7mm-08vs.308, 280 vs 30-06, 7mmWSM vs 300WSM ect.)  The 30 cal looses velocity and the 7mm surpasses it in both trajectory and energy.   Amen to you Nudge
2-.223's,2-.243's, 4-22lr's, 357, 45LC, 7mm-08, .280, 30-06, 2-4/10's, 20ga, 12ga. and a custom savage 7mmWSM...

Offline txpitdog

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2012, 08:37:06 am »
150gr is on the lighter end for the '06, so comparing a 140gr 7mm bullet is on the heavier end of its caliber.   Yes, it bridges the gap to the '06, but if you compare light for caliber rounds between the two and heavy for caliber rounds between the two, the '06 is clearly at least a full step up if not a step and a half.   For whitetail, that extra power may not be needed, but you can't really make an accurate comparison by going light on one and heavy on the other. 

I have only really noticed a significant difference between deer I've killed with uber-powerful rounds.
45-70 - ran like hell
35 Whelen - ran like hell
300 win mag - ran like hell
44 mag - bang flop
30-06 bang flop
243 - bang flop...with a little squirming

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Offline Nudge6771

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2012, 07:29:48 pm »
txpitdog,

What you are recounting about larger calibers not dropping them instantly, can be both a plus and a minus.  The reason those higher powered (.300 Win Mag.) or larger diameter (.45-70, .35 Whelen) rounds sometimes get a runner, is that people are using too tough a bullet for a soft animal like a deer.  As a result, they get lazer-clean pass-throughs, which, while they make a huge wound channel and blood trail, won't necessarily overcome the adrenhiline jolt of fear that prompts the deer to run.

Rounds like the .270 win, on the other hand, are likely to get a high speed 'sprawl' in the deer, essentially shreading the deer inside, which makes for spectacular DRT kills.  BUT those type of kills also mean more meat damage.

The solution is to use a softer bullet like a Speer Hot Cor load when shooting softees like deer with larger calibers.  The bullet opens up, and you get the best of both worlds -- expanded wound channel and good blood.

One of the ugliest things you could see is a .25-06 deer kill with 100 grains @ less than 75 yards.  Like tossing a grenade at the deer. :-\

This is precisely why, given they hunt in close, generations of hunters have found the 30-30 SUCH an effective deer slayer.  Guys who hunt .45-70 need only to replace their solid and tougher-expander loads with softer ones, and watch how much better they do inside of 125 yards.

The Whelen -- of the the all-time greatest rounds EVER -- exists somewhere in between.

Hunting should be less about "spectacular kills" and more about "spectacular harvests," the latter of which would mean the best balance of chase vs damage.  Truth be told, that zippy .270 Win might take em down in a hurry...but if it's meat yer after, that's a real consideration.

Offline Swampman

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2012, 02:56:45 am »
When I break the front shoulders they never run.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline bajabill

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2012, 07:05:42 am »
 



Finally someone to agree with I've always said that in the "same parent case "the 7mm will always out perform the 30 cal.  The 7mm always has better a ballistic coifficient gets higher velocity and carries more energy down range even if you go up in bullet weight with the 30 in the same parent case which ever on it may be (7mm-08vs.308, 280 vs 30-06, 7mmWSM vs 300WSM ect.)  The 30 cal looses velocity and the 7mm surpasses it in both trajectory and energy.   Amen to you Nudge

That logic implies the same can be said about a 6.5mm vs a 7mm, and then a 6mm vs a 6.5mm, and then......Oh, did I forget the American diameters like 277 and 258.  Why would anyone ever need a 338 win mag when there is a much better solution in the 264win.  This is a very simplistic conclusion based on looking at less than all of the parameters.  It may not be wrong, but that does not mean it is always right.
 
Makes you wonder why anyone ever loaded a 375.  Or, it answers the question why some game management organizations came to the need to designate a minimum caliber requirement.

Offline Nudge6771

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2012, 07:49:15 am »
bajabill,

I don't want to speak for another poster, but what I think he's getting at and agreeing with me about, relates specifically to 6.5 & 7mm bullets as they compare specifically to .30's, because they happen to exist in a very good B.C. sweetspot.  .338 bullets offer a similar advantage over .35 cal bullets, which some (including me) speculate are the reason why the .35's have never been as popular as the .338's.  (SIDEBAR:  The .35 Whelen is one of the greatest around, so don't say I'm putting this size down!)  It's just that the .338's give a bullet flight-per-weight, in much the same way the 6.5-7's do vs. 30's., so gun makers have zero'd in on that efficiency.

BUT...just because SOME smaller calibers are comparatively more efficient flyers to larger ones...does not mean you to take that to mean these are ALL better than all calibers above them..., which I'm thinking is how you took his comment.  It's all about the job you need them to do.  I DO think that is the case with regard to 6.5-7's vs 30's which are too fat for their short action cases (--> .308 Win)...but that BC advantage falls away as you can effectively fire larger weight (i.e. longer) .30's...like the .30-06 can do.  So, the value of the 150 gr .30-06 vs 140 grain 7MM's?  Gimme the 7MM's.  But make that a 180 gr. .30-06?  The other caliber can't hold a candle.

So the comment really relates to getting better BC's from medium-heavy 7MM's...vs lighter .30's which the .308 Win cant shoot too well.  The .30-06 is MADE to shoot high BC 180's (hoo RAH!!), and that's what I feed mine.

I'm actually not a huge lover of wicked fast rounds in ANY caliber...especially so in smaller ones (i.e. .264 Win Mag, .257 Weatherby, etc.)  Slower and fatter works very nicely, and penetrates without destroying too much, which is precisely why guys love their .35's and .45-70's so much, at typical close ranges. 

BTW, going back to my comment about the better BC's of .338 bullets, that may be true, but even that only matters if you need distances greater than 150-200 yds.  Inside of that, gimme those aforementioned .35's or .45's all day long.

All these rounds have their advantages and disadvantages, obviously, but some of the advantages MOST guys will never need or make use of...the small win Mag and Weatherby are two examples.  Just how many 800 yard mountain goat shots does one expect to make in life? :o

Offline Dalgo

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2012, 08:41:27 am »
Mcbammer, this is not my quote:

   [/quote    Its   all   about   recoil  .     turning    my    shoulder    3   shades   of    purple   is    not   for   me .

My .300 Wby is a Sauer 202, weighing around 9 lbs. Not a light gun, but quite pleasant to shoot, actually. Maybe a combination of the weight, and the way the stock fits me. Not a bruiser at all. And, it is accurate. Anyway, as previously posted for way out there energy, it's just the ticket. For closer in then, pick your poison.

McWoodduck, 7 TCU. Why not add another barrel for your Luxus 11, instead of getting the CZ 527? That Lexus of yours is a neat looking, classy, light weight and well balanced gun?

Dalgo
Pierre

Offline Dalgo

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2012, 08:44:14 am »
Mcbammer, this is not my quote:

   [/quote    Its   all   about   recoil  .     turning    my    shoulder    3   shades   of    purple   is    not   for   me .

My .300 Wby is a Sauer 202, weighing around 9 lbs. Not a light gun, but quite pleasant to shoot, actually. Maybe a combination of the weight, and the way the stock fits me. Not a bruiser at all. And, it is accurate. Anyway, as previously posted, for way out there energy, it's just the ticket. For closer in then, pick your poison.

McWoodduck, 7 TCU. Why not add another barrel for your Luxus 11, instead of getting the CZ 527? That Lexus of yours is a neat looking, classy, light weight and well balanced gun

Dalgo
Pierre

Offline scootrd

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #80 on: April 09, 2012, 09:25:39 am »
bajabill,

It's all about the job you need them to do.  I DO think that is the case with regard to 6.5-7's vs 30's which are too fat for their short action cases (--> .308 Win)...but that BC advantage falls away as you can effectively fire larger weight (i.e. longer) .30's...like the .30-06 can do.  So, the value of the 150 gr .30-06 vs 140 grain 7MM's?  Gimme the 7MM's.  But make that a 180 gr. .30-06?  The other caliber can't hold a candle. So the comment really relates to getting better BC's from medium-heavy 7MM's...vs lighter .30's which the .308 Win cant shoot too well.  The .30-06 is MADE to shoot high BC 180's (hoo RAH!!), and that's what I feed mine.

Which was my whole point when I started this tongue in Cheek Post pokin a little fun at paradigms.
NE has a large population of old timers (my father was one) who hunted all their lives with an '06. For NE whitetails, I still state this is wayyyyy overkill (yes swampy Overkill). I think folks get caught up in paradigms.  A 7mm-08 or like in a small compact rig,  using moderate loads, provides much more significant advantages in NE than the ole '06. (unless that '06 doubles for your single use All rounder")

Before I made the switch from '06 to 7mm-08 for Whitetails, I always used 150GR core lokts  -  hence why, when I was deciding to move to a lighter more compact rig I made the initial Post comparison.

In NE Save the '06  180's or above for Moose tag. Make the switch , get a dedicated whitetail rig in 7mm-08 . You will be glad you did.

I'll say it again,

In my opinion the 7mm-08 140gr is the Greatest all around Whitetail Deer cartridge/caliber ever developed for most hunting environments and terrains... yes dare I say it.... You bet ... even better than a 30-06.......

Semper Fi.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #81 on: April 09, 2012, 09:51:30 am »
All things being equal, do you want a heavier slug moving slower or a lighter slug moving faster.
Do you want a big hole or do you want a small hole.
Big hole = less meat Damage for the most part slower slug.
Small hole = Greater Meat damage faster slug creates hydrolic disruption
As to why we need the 338 and the 375 when the .264 has a better BC is simple,
If you are a smaller bullet kind of guy, not a problem.  But let me ask you if you will be in the area of a bull moose in rut with a little bullet?  With a ton of bone and mussle bearing down on you, do you really want the smallest most efficient use of powder adn a high BC?  Or do you want a 375 H&H or the almost no BC of the 458 Win mag?
Each caliber has a place.  Each caliber was designed by someone who said "if I do this for my situation, I think it will be better.  And I think it is personal preference and recoil limits that mak you pick one ctg over another.
Now comparing 7-08 to 30-06 is like comparing a Sadan to an SUV.
You want to talk about cargo and hauling you talk SUV you want to Talk efficiency and handeling you talk sadan.  Each has their advantages and each as a disadvantage.  But clearly both will get you there. 
 
 

Offline Nudge6771

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #82 on: April 09, 2012, 11:42:45 am »
Each caliber has a place.  Each caliber was designed by someone who said "if I do this for my situation, I think it will be better."

I'm with you part way, but not in the above quoted.  Firstly, because gun manufacturers make new calibers because gun nuts will buy them...not because they've necessarily "solved" any new piece of the ballistic puzzle.

Second, I think many, MANY calibers absolutely have not solved anything new, and essentially offer only solutions to problems almost nobody is going to have.  Like, "Boy, I can get out to 900 yards pushing 2,000 ft/lbs...but what I REALLY need is to be able to do that @ 1100 yards.

This is nonsense.  The only people on Earth who need that are military snipers.  Period.  End of story.  No hunter needs this, even if the shot presented itself, because these are not ethical hunting distances.  Even if you've got the gun, and you have the practice time in and the skill to be able to credibly make that one shot as a hunter...who on Earth would find it advisable to do so, given the degree to which wind, animal movement, mirage, etc., come to bear on yanking the shot?  It isn't even hunting...it's long range target practice using majestic creatures as sillouette targets, just for "giggles." 

So...getting back to my above point on calibers, right off the bat I'm asserting that probably half of the "new" zippy calibers are essentially re-creating the .30-06 in some aspect.  Do they offer better ballistics?  Sure...at non-hunting distances.  Oh, and with a far greater increase in recoil than in ballistic improvement.

Give me a .30-06 loaded with 180 gr Trophy Bonded Tipped Claws any day over a .300 Win Mag, and the elk will never know the difference.  Only your shoulder will.  That Mag sure does shine out at 850 yards...but since I am NOT Carlos Hathcock, that does NOT matter for any reason other than beer-swilling bragging rights.

Same goes for anything "Win Mag," "WSM," "SAUM," or "RUM" vs their non-magnum equivalents.  If someone likes these and buys them, then good for you and God Bless America that you have the choice to do so.  I like many, I would fight and die to be sure you have that right of choice.  But don't be deluded into thinking you have a burning NEED for your .340 Weatherby that wasn't otherwise being addressed, unless you're hunting Taliban-sympathizing, Kevlar-clad doll sheep in the canyons of Wyoming...in which case, go with God, my son.

Such are the gun equivalents of Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, and the like.  They sound sexy when you say their name, but they cost an arm and a leg to load, and the truth is you know damn well the guy in the $45k Corvette ZR1 can run right with you for 1/5 the cost. ;D

Offline scootrd

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #83 on: April 09, 2012, 12:10:53 pm »
unless you're hunting Taliban-sympathizing, Kevlar-clad doll sheep in the canyons of Wyoming...in which case, go with God, my son.
I was always under the Impression the Dall's were True blue American to the core .. It's those sneaky  Rocky Mountain Coyote's I heard were the ones not to be trusted  , I'm not one for conspiracy theories but I have been told the Mountain Goats believe their Allegiances can be bought. -  But again this would probably require further investigation. :)
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #84 on: April 09, 2012, 12:38:02 pm »
I agree,
If you look at the base calibers, the Just Prior to WWI introduction of smokelss powder bolt action calibers.
The Mauser, Carcano, Manlicher, Nagant, Enfiled, Springfied, Krag, Label, and Arasaka calibers. 
All are so close to each other as to be ballistic twins.  The rifles are very similar some being stronger than others. 
The creation of calibers by necking up and down these parent cases due to the strength of the action, the availability of brass, or projectiles, or the bore diameter are going to dictate the design of the ctg designed.
Clearly if you can get 30-06 brass but have a 8mm Mauser rifle you will make an 8mm06 rifle.
If you have a Sprigfield rifle and some how came into a few thousand 7mm bullets you make 7mm Express / 280 and when a company starts to chamber for it they stick their name on it.  Most neckings were done by some wildcatter and then became factory. 
Is what I ment by my comment.
And yes you always have the bench rest shooters and other target shooters looking for a round ot give them an edge to punch holes in paper, knock over a steel sillhouette, or make a tighter group or extend range with the same bullet.
300 Win will do exactly what 30-06 will do only at 75 yards further down range.
I am refering to bullet drop and Foot pounds of energy.  Clearly they both can throw the same bullets.
I am one of those that has opted for the 338 Win mag over my 308 Hunting rifle for animals larger than deer.  I did so for a few reasons.  I like having the option.
I also own a 375 H&H and again like the option to do so.
I think these better fit my experience with ballistics and effects on game.  Will a 7mm Mag work, yep, will my 308 work, yep.  but I like the added advantages of the larger blunt nose bullet.  I am clearly an SUV kind of guy.
And while you super sports cars in most driving situations can never be used to their fullest, be it a Vette or an Italina or German sports car costing 10X as much.  Only when on the track hitting the design envelopes for those cars will you see a difference. 
At 100 yards both a 30-30 and a 300 RUM will kill a deer and poke small groups in paper.  At 300 yards the 300 RUM will show a significant advantage at making a smaller goup being sighted in at 100 yards.  With almost a thousand FPS for the same 150 grain bullet the 300 RUM is going to get there faster have less wind drift and almost no bullet drop.  If you get ot hunt one week every other year you may want the laser like qualities of the 300 RUM make hitting an animal on an expensive hunt better.  If you hunt every week of hunting season, the challange of getting closer may be a challange to you and clearly people hunt large game with a handgun like 44 and 357 mag as well as a bow.

Offline poncaguy

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #85 on: April 09, 2012, 01:16:53 pm »
My favorite for 300+ shots at deer is my 270WSM, have taken does at 385.  110 Barnes TTSX. Now, will try  my 257 Weatherby. My favorite    for most deer hunting 300 and less is the 7-08......don't like recoil much since 71 Bday is next month. Usually have heavy insulated coveralls on in Oklahoma gun deer season, so recoil isn't all that bad  with the 270WSM.

Offline Nudge6771

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2012, 06:11:37 am »
I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce you to my new caliber creation, and offer it initially as a forum exclusive.  I know you like your 7MM-08's and '06's...I do too.  But follow along to what you REALLY want.

I call it the .17-408.  And trust me, you NEED this.

OK, so essentially it's a .408 Chey Tac that I've necked down to accept .17 cal, while crimping the shoulder in about another inch so it can accept really long .17 cal bullets.  Testing with 150 grain .17's has proven about 7,300 fps velocity at the muzzle (335,000 CUP), using a 30 inch barrel.  With this load the MPBR is about 877 yards, so with it zero'd @ 750 yards the drop at 2,500 yards distance is about 3.5 inches.  You basically can't get any flatter.

Why??  How can you even ask that?  OF COURSE you have a need to vaporize tree squirrels 3 miles away!  And because you're on this forum, I'm discounting the base gun package from $9,000 down to $7,900 for the first 200 takers.  This DOES include a 40-250 x 120 Schmidt & Bender scope, as well as a case and 50 rounds of ammo.  (**NOTE: If you like you can purchase additional brass and dies, but given the barrel shoots out after about 85-100 rounds, it might not be worth the $900 cost.  Your option, though.)

The base rifle weighs in at about 19 lbs, but you CAN opt for the "Mountain Rifle" model (made of classified mil-spec space-age polymers...don't ask) for an additional $4,500, which weights only 5 lbs.  Given it likely WILL dislocate your shoulder each time you fire it, I'll be needing you to sign a disclosure form if you opt to NOT buy the special padded vest (filled with mil-spec space-age 'foam'...don't ask) for an additional $650.

What??  OF COURSE your wife wants you to have it!!  Trust me, this is one of those no brainers you don't even need to bring up before doing.  Think of the talk in town when everyone finds out!  No, think of the talk 2 towns AWAY when they see how well you can take care of THEIR 'squirrel problem' from your backyard patio.  (**NOTE:  Please do this at a safe distance, because in my testing, the muzzle blast from the brake did knock people over 35 feet away.  So keep the dog and kids inside.)

You should jump on this right away, because I'm going to offer some juicy free "squirrel safari" trips to several magazine writers in order to get favorable write-ups for the next 12 months, so thereafter I suspect it's going to be impossible for you to get one.  You know how over the last 18 months EVERY magazine write-up has been about the "6.5 Creedmore," which is basically just a .260 Rem with a sexier name?  Well this is going to be promoted even bigger!

DON'T miss out.  You may commence ordering now.

Online yellowtail3

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2012, 06:32:57 am »
I would think that for deer, 7mm08 & 30-06 are pretty much the same... they should work. Full disclosure: I've owned 30-06 but never killed anything with it, and never owned a 7mm08... but figured 7mm08 should at least be sufficient for deer. Not as good as a 270, but sufficient.
 
If one needed rifle for something bigger than deer, something can hit harder at any range, then 30-06 would be a rational choice.
Single up all lines!

Offline Nudge6771

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2012, 05:27:31 am »
UPDATE

Swampman bought the first 14 of the ".17-.408's," but not before he berated me for the "pansy" muzzle velocity, and inquired about necking a 120MM cannon shell down to .458 bullets...for whitetail hunting.

186 remaining.  Don't miss out!!

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2012, 11:08:05 am »
Everyone has ideas on what works for a deer rifle and some have totaly differnt needs then others. Id say most here do a bit more typing then actual killing of deer. No need to bash some elses opinion because it does go along with yours. Ive killed deer with everything from a 22lr to a 458 mag. Pretty much have my own opinions as to what works best and what doesnt. Even my needs change from season to season. You wont see me out shooting crop damage deer with a 250 savage, more likely a 257wby or some other mag. You wont see me with a mag in regular deer season. Usually a 250, 257 roberts, 308 ect. Because you have a gun that meets the way you hunt doesnt make your opinion the only one that is right. Even as all knowing and talented i am  ;)  I dont have all the answers either and dont slame someone elses.
sixgun addict

 

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