Author Topic: The 30/06  (Read 7572 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aught Six

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2009, 03:41:00 pm »
What do you think I think of it?  ;)

103 years old and still the best!

Graybeard Outdoors

Re: The 30/06
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2009, 03:41:00 pm »
 

Offline charles p

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2531
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2009, 06:40:00 pm »
I have rifles in many calibers and a custom beanfield rifle for long range deer.  Still to this day, my greatest longrange success and very longest kills were made with a Mod 700 in 30-06.  Plain vanilla is still good to me.  My eyes are not so good anymore but the cartridge is still a keeper.

Offline diggler1833

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2009, 05:56:17 am »
I spent 7 1/2 months mowing lawns and doing various other yardwork in my neighborhood to save up and get my first rifle, a 700BDL in 30-06 back when I was 14.  Other than bringing the trigger down to 3#'s I haven't messed with it at all due to sentimental value.  I may bed it and start doing some load work for it in the next year or so as it has sit untouched since I enlisted 12 years ago.

Offline mannyrock

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2173
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2009, 06:16:16 am »
Dear Guys,


  Sorry to interupt this .30-06 love fest, but if you love the .30-06, you will love the .308 Winchester more.  In standard factory loads, it has approximately 94% of the power of the .30-06, with approximately 30% less recoil!   Modern light magnum factory ammo have proven it an effective killer even of moose!

   Craig Boddington, in his book entitled Big Game Hunting Cartridges, wrote that as a practical matter, he never saw any difference in the field between the effective killing power of the .30-06 and the .308.

   I'm not knocking the .30-06, but I was a .30-06 shooter who discovered the .308.  The huge reduction in recoil energy will make you a much better shooter, especially if you are a smaller guy.  Plus, you have the added benefits of a short action, less muzzle blast, and the inherent accuracy of the .308.

  Try one.

  Regards,

   Mannyrock

   

Offline john keyes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 770
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2009, 06:30:12 am »
Dear Guys,


  Sorry to interupt this .30-06 love fest, but if you love the .30-06, you will love the .308 Winchester more. 
   

and all of its derivatives

 ;D
Though taken from established manufacturers' sources and presumed to be safe please do not use any load that I have posted. Please reference Hogdon, Lyman, Speer and others as a source of data for your own use.

Offline Rangr44

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2231
  • Gender: Male
  • Long-time Retiree
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2009, 05:18:25 pm »
As Townsend Whelan said: "The .30-06 is never a mistake".

I've had at least one since the mid-60's, have tried just about every action type in the chambering, and currently have three.

A .30-06 rifle would be the very last to go, should I ever rid myself of my firearms.

.
There's a Place for All God's Creatures - Right Next to the Potatoes & Gravy ! !

Offline diggler1833

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2009, 07:23:44 pm »
I realize the potential of the .308 vs. the 30-06.  For most practical shooting the .308 is all you need.  Keep in mind though that just about any handloader can run a 30-06 100-150fps faster than the .308.  With recoil less than a .300magnum to some that might be what they are looking for. 

Don't forget as well, for the most part the venerable .308 is trumped ballistically by the 260Rem, 7mm-08, or even better a 24" barrel 7mm-08AI.  Why not run the 7mm-08AI with the heavy 7mm bullets and have the same recoil as a .308 with an effective target range of 200-300yds more than the .308?  Don't forget the .243 as well if you have a custom stick and run the heavies.  All rounds are based on the same case as well just to keep the comparrison's legitimate.

the 30-06 is here due to people's comfort with the round's capability and nostalgia, not because it out performs.  It is just a comfortable medium with which to hunt everything on our continent with, just like our fathers and grandfathers did.

Killing power is not necessarily as noteworthy as a shooter who can put the bullet where he wants it, and knows a little about bullet construction and how they perform on game at the velocities for the ranges they'll be hunting at.  There are many hunters out there who have killed large game with 6.5's, .257's, and .243's.  I will conceed though that an inexperienced hunter who is a mediocre shot would do well to use the largest caliber that they are comfortable with.

I just like my 30-06 because it reminds me of my younger years when I didn't have the responsibilities that I do now.

Offline wink_man

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 311
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2009, 07:37:50 pm »
Dear Guys,


  Sorry to interupt this .30-06 love fest, but if you love the .30-06, you will love the .308 Winchester more.  In standard factory loads, it has approximately 94% of the power of the .30-06, with approximately 30% less recoil!   Modern light magnum factory ammo have proven it an effective killer even of moose!

   Craig Boddington, in his book entitled Big Game Hunting Cartridges, wrote that as a practical matter, he never saw any difference in the field between the effective killing power of the .30-06 and the .308.

   I'm not knocking the .30-06, but I was a .30-06 shooter who discovered the .308.  The huge reduction in recoil energy will make you a much better shooter, especially if you are a smaller guy.  Plus, you have the added benefits of a short action, less muzzle blast, and the inherent accuracy of the .308.

  Try one.

  Regards,

   Mannyrock

   

Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree on this one, and on several points you make on the 308.

First off, I truely doubt that Boddington has enough practical hunting experience with EITHER of the 2 calibers to draw any conclusion. While I'm not breathless about him, I do know enough about him to know what cartridges he used in most hunting situations, and neither of these 2 would make that list very often, perhaps if he was TOLD to use them by his boss to keep his subscribers happy.

I don't see much of a difference in an 06 and a 308 with bullets up to 168 grains, but any weights above that, the 308 tends to lose steam fast over the 06 at longer ranges, kinda like an 06 gives up the same to a 300 Mag with bullets 180 grains and above. While the 308 is a great cartridge, it simply doesn't have the case capacity to take enough of the slower buning powders needed to get bullets 180 grains and above moving along at the pace an 06 can.

I have 06's and a 308, and I shoot them both, and I have never seen a 'huge' difference in recoil reduction, frankly, not enough to make much of a difference to the average shooter in my opinion. If both calibers shoot the same weight bullet at the same speed, it's because the smaller case works to a higher pressure to accomplish this, so if the bullets are driven at the same speed(or close to it), how does one see a 'huge' recoil reduction in the 308?

Perhaps I am immune to muzzle blast, but my favorite 06 is a Reminton 760 pump Carbine, with an 18 1/2 inch barrel, and I don't see much of a difference between it, or a 22 inch barrel on an 06 or 308, as far as muzzle blast is concerned. My brother used to tell me that from a distance of a couple of hundred yards away, that the carbine had more of the sound of a shotguns 'boom', rather than the crack of a rifle, but I never noticed shooting at a deer.

It has been mentioned in above posts, but to repeat, I think the 06 does nothing excellently, but everything very very well.

I'm not knocking the 308 by any means as I do like the cartridge, but if I had to choose between the 2 for one all around  do everything rifle, the 06 would get the nod every time from me, due to the fact it does better with bullets 180 grains and above.

Just my personal thoughts and opinions(which my 2 ex's would say aren't worth the powder to blow them you know where, LMAO).








 
Garry
'Life is to short to hang with an ugly woman, or hunt with an ugly gun' - Garry
'It's not that our liberal friends are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't' Ronald Reagan
Just ask an American Indian what happens when you let immigration get out of hand.

Offline teddy12b

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3086
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2009, 08:14:46 pm »
A .30-06 rifle would be the very last to go, should I ever rid myself of my firearms.

Well said. 

Offline kix

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 174
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2009, 06:01:34 pm »
  Hey guys. I didn't start this tread to instigate a "my cartridge is better than yours" or a "may I suggest something better" venue. Far from it. I just wanted to let fellow GB members know that I'm in my mid fifties and have finally found appreciation for a great cartridge. I own and shoot a plethora of rifles but there is no denying the fact that the '06 was one hell of an invention.   Kix

Offline diggler1833

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2009, 07:18:21 pm »
Hey kix i totally understand. 

Offline High Brass

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 308
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2009, 10:16:18 am »
I tend to really like the 30-06.  My two have proven very accurate, easy to load for, tolerable recoil, what's not to like?

Remington 760 and Winchester 1917 Enfield sporter

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8521
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2009, 10:22:37 am »
The fight between 308 and 30-06 is like the fight over Who makes the best pick up truck?
Both have there supporters, both have their advantages.
Both have spawned many great cartridges by necking up or down.  And then you have that fight as well.  270 vs 30-06, 7-08 vs 308, 338fed vs 338-06 and then you have the spawns of each vs each other in questions like 7-08 vs 270/284.  
Now with that said.
308 rules you all need to know that and ....... ;D

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3032
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2009, 10:29:45 am »
I've got 2 .30-06's - have had another that I sold.  My first (and second) hunting rifle was chambered in '06 pretty much because it's what my dad had always hunted with. 

I'll buck the trend (slightly) :).  I like the .30-06.  Both of mine are great guns and I've killed quite a few deer with one of them (the other actually hasn't ever gone out hunting, but it shoots well).  That said, all I hunt (with a rifle) is whitetail.  I'm on the East Coast in heavily wooded areas, so virtually every shot is within 100 yards. Within that range, a .30-06 is almost overkill for the deer around here.  With the excess recoil and meat damage, I've taken to leaving mine home more and more lately.  Instead I've been taking out my .257 Roberts a bit more, and have quite honestly been hunting a lot with my .30-30 (a Marlin 336 - though I recently bought a Savage 340 as well that I took out once towards the end of last season but didn't get to try it on anything).  The .30-30's in particular are lighter guns overall, and still have plenty of "oomph" within the ranges I normally shoot at. 

Basically, there's nothing wrong with a .30-06 at all - my Savage in .30-06 was my go-to gun for the longest time.  Ballistically though, there are lots of other good cartridges out there too.  Also, I wouldn't be too harsh on the guys buying the newer stuff.  Sometimes they're just looking for something interesting, and admittedly, most of those cartridges are just fine for hunting too.  I'm just making an observation that there is often just as much picking on the newer cartridges (which are themselves plenty effective on game) just because they're new as there is picking on the older ones just because they're old.  ;)

Same here, made the switch this year to 7mm-08, for all the same reasons cited. Here in the northeast the 30-06 is what I grew up with ( I inherited my dads when I was 13 years old after he passed away ),  but starting this past year forward, I decided to leave it behind and opt for a smaller , lighter package. the 7mm-08 ballistics are great, and though my dads -06 won't accompany me in the woods anymore it will continue to be prominently displayed with honor in my home.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Syncerus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2009, 11:00:17 am »
I never used the .30/06 much in the field, and then had to use it as a loaner rifle for African plains game. Everything that I hit decently died with one shot at ranges up to 230 ish yards and up to gemsbok in size. I had complete pass-through hits and prompt drops.

What's there not to like?
Don't vote for Socialists.

Offline kix

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 174
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2009, 04:31:31 pm »
  Hello all again. Yes,the 06 is great cartridge but like most of you (rifle nuts) it is not the only thing out there. I am having a 700 .243 re-barreled to 7/08 and it will be my newest pet. Due to the long deer season here in Texas I hunt with a myriad of rifles but I no longer feel like a poor,under-privledged citizen/hunter holding a 30/06. The 06 will get the job done just as well as as the newer wsms,wssms,etc. Kix

Offline Coyote Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2009, 10:21:53 am »
I realize the potential of the .308 vs. the 30-06.  For most practical shooting the .308 is all you need. 

I tend to agree that for MOST practical shooting the .308 is all you need.  In Big Bear country I would much prefer a .30-06 with 220g bullets, something the .308 Win is not particularly well suited to handle.  For my own purposes, hunting elk and smaller in Colorado, I use both the .308 Win and .30-06 loaded with identical bullets.  I push the .30-06 about 150fps faster for my hunting loads but run them about the same  (.308 velocities) with the target loads.  Although I shoot both out to 500 yards, at that range I would prefer my 7mm RM or .300 Win Mag if shooting elk.

Quote
Keep in mind though that just about any handloader can run a 30-06 100-150fps faster than the .308.  With recoil less than a .300magnum to some that might be what they are looking for. 
Well, you are right on the first part.  But since you are talking about handloads, the second part is wrong – loaded to the same velocity there is little difference in recoil.  For example, using Nosler #6 as the source, a 165g AB can be pushed to 3002fps with a max .30-06 load and 3026fps with a mild .300 Win load.  Assuming an 8.3 pound rifle in both cases, the difference in recoil is due to the .300 Win’s larger powder charge – 67.0g vs 63.0g. 

The difference in recoil is 1.3 foot-pounds, 25.4f-p vs 24.0f-p.  Not a big enough difference to worry about.  In this case the difference to worry about is the .300 Win Mag can push the bullet to 3290fps with a max load. 

Quote
Don't forget as well, for the most part the venerable .308 is trumped ballistically by the 260Rem, 7mm-08, or even better a 24" barrel 7mm-08AI. 

I have to call “BS” on this claim.  The .308 Win, by virtue of the larger base diameter of the bullet (more area) can, at the same pressure, drive bullets of the same weight faster than the smaller calibers.  In many cases this works out that the .308 Win can drive heavier bullets to the same velocity as the smaller calibers drive lighter bullets.

Using Nosler 6 as the reference again:
.308 Win = 180g AB (BC .507, SD .271) @ 2718fps
.308 Win = 165g AB (BC .475, SD .248) @ 2910fps
.308 Win = 150g AB (BC .435, SD .226) @ 3001fps
.308 Win = 125g BT (BC .366, SD .188) @ 3284fps

7mm-08 = 160g AB (BC .531, SD .283) @ 2780fps
7mm-08 = 140g AB (BC .485, SD .248) @ 2953fps

.260 Rem = 140g HPBT (BC .529, SD .287) @ 2830fps
.260 Rem = 130g AB (BC .488, SD .266) @ 2911fps
.260 Rem = 120g BT (BC .458, SD .246) @ 3049fps
.260 Rem = 100g BT (BC .350, SD .205) @ 365fps

Now if we take these loads and zero for MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) using a 6” diameter target (Max 3” bullet deviation above or below LOS):
.308 Win = 180g AB, 274yds = MPBR;  500yds = -42.0”, 1930fps, 1489fpe
.308 Win = 165g AB, 291yds = MPBR;  500yds = -35.5”, 2039fps, 1523fpe
.308 Win = 150g AB, 297yds = MPBR;  500yds = -33.7”, 2040fps, 1386fpe
.308 Win = 125g BT, 315yds = MPBR;  500yds = -28.2”, 2097fps, 1221fpe

7mm-08 = 160g AB, 281yds = MPBR;  500yds = -38.7”, 2014fps, 1441fpe
7mm-08 = 140g AB, 296yds = MPBR;  500yds = -33.5”, 2090fps, 1358fpe

.260 Rem = 140g HPBT, 286yds = MPBR;  500yds = -36.8”, 2053fps, 1311fpe
.260 Rem = 130g AB, 292yds = MPBR;  500yds = -35.0”, 2061fps, 1226fpe
.260 Rem = 120g BT, 302yds = MPBR;  500yds = -31.3”, 2122fps, 1200fpe
.260 Rem = 100g BT, 321yds = MPBR;  500yds = -26.9”, 2111fps, 989fpe

What these numbers show is that, with handloads, the .308 Win can deliver more thump at 500 yards with bullet weights of similar weight or SD and that at ranges out to 500 yards there is no significant advantage in trajectory with the 7mm-08 or .260 Rem.   In fact, if you are looking at delivered energy and retained velocity, the .308 Win wins the trajectory game in every case. 

I will let you go through the numbers for factory loads.

Quote
Why not run the 7mm-08AI with the heavy 7mm bullets and have the same recoil as a .308 with an effective target range of 200-300yds more than the .308?  Don't forget the .243 as well if you have a custom stick and run the heavies.  All rounds are based on the same case as well just to keep the comparrison's legitimate.

Your claim that the 7mm-08AI provides 200-300 yds more than the .308 is ludicrous.  The .280 Rem has more case capacity than the 7mm-08AI and can shoots the same bullets at higher velocities.

.280 Rem = 160g AB (BC .531, SD .283) @ 2929fps
.280 Rem = 140g AB (BC .485, SD .248) @ 3152fps

.280 Rem = 160g AB, 295yds = MPBR;  500yds = -33.1”, 2139fps, 1625fpe
.280 Rem = 140g AB, 313yds = MPBR;  500yds = -27.5”, 2252fps, 1577fpe

So how does the faster-than-the-7mm-08AI-could-ever-hope-to-be .280 Rem compare to the .308 Win?

With 160g bullets the .280 Rem adds a whopping 4 yards to MPBR when compared to the .308 Win and 165g bullets.  At 500 yards it is 2.4” flatter, 100fps faster and has 102fpe more energy.  The trajectory advantage disappears quickly, at 510 yards, and the energy and velocity advantage only adds about 48 yards.

With 140g bullets the .280 Rem adds a whopping 16 yards to MPBR when compared to the .308 Win and 150g bullets.  At 500 yards it is 6.2” flatter, 212fps faster and has 191fpe more energy.  The trajectory advantage disappears quickly, at 530 yards.  The velocity advantage adds 135 yards and the retained energy adds about 90 yards.

Keeping in mind that the 7mm-08AI can’t hope to keep up with the .280 Rem when loaded to similar pressures, there is no way the 7mm-08AI has “an effective target range of 200-300yds more than the .308”.


Quote
the 30-06 is here due to people's comfort with the round's capability and nostalgia, not because it out performs.  It is just a comfortable medium with which to hunt everything on our continent with, just like our fathers and grandfathers did.

The .30-06 is here for a lot of reasons, not just nostalgia.  It will do everything the .308 Win can do at lower pressures and if can do more than the .308 Win when loaded to the same pressures.  As bullet weight increases above 168g  the .30-06 really starts to distance itself from the .308 Win.

I happened to buy my .30-06 in 2006 and did so for a couple reasons, one of which was nostalgic.  That reason, however, did not drive the decision nearly as much as other factors.

Using Nosler 6 as the reference again:
.30-06 = 180g AB (BC .507, SD .271) @ 2872fps
.30-06 = 165g AB (BC .475, SD .248) @ 3002fps
.30-06 = 150g AB (BC .435, SD .226) @ 3056fps
.30-06 = 125g BT (BC .366, SD .188) @ 3418fps

.30-06 = 180g AB, 289yds = MPBR;  500yds = -35.8”, 2058fps, 1692fpe
.30-06 = 165g AB, 299yds = MPBR;  500yds = -32.3”, 2114fps, 1637fpe
.30-06 = 150g AB, 302yds = MPBR;  500yds = -31.9”, 2084fps, 1446fpe
.30-06 = 125g BT, 328yds = MPBR;  500yds = -24.7”, 2198fps, 1341fpe

When comparing these to the .308 Win, remember that these use the lower .30-06 pressures.  If handloading to similar pressures as the .308 win, the numbers get even better.


Quote
Killing power is not necessarily as noteworthy as a shooter who can put the bullet where he wants it, and knows a little about bullet construction and how they perform on game at the velocities for the ranges they'll be hunting at.  There are many hunters out there who have killed large game with 6.5's, .257's, and .243's.  I will conceed though that an inexperienced hunter who is a mediocre shot would do well to use the largest caliber that they are comfortable with.

I just like my 30-06 because it reminds me of my younger years when I didn't have the responsibilities that I do now.


There is no disagreement here about the importance of bullet placement or matching the bullet to the application.  I hunt deer with my .257 Roberts but would not hesitate to use it on elk  given a good opportunity.

Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline diggler1833

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2009, 12:24:46 pm »
Well I think we are at at disagreement here.  First off I don't use much of Nosler for anything.  Not to say that they aren't good bullets, but their selection is a bit limited for long range shooting.  For your impressive data look-up on the .308/.260/7mm-08 comparrison, try running your .308 Nosler numbers again with these BC's:

.264 cal Berger 140gr Target VLD and Target BT Long Range.  .595 and .618 respectively.
            Hornady 140 A-Max. .550
            Sierra Match King 140 and 142gr.  .535 and .585-595 respectively.

.284 cal Berger 168gr and 180gr VLD.  .617 and .659 respectively
             Hornady 162 A-Max. .625
             Sierra Match King 175gr. .608

There are plenty of great online ballistics calculators for you to try out.  Here is a good one:
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj_basic/traj_basic.html

I don't care much about out to 500yds like are in your comparrison.  Granted while the vast majority of hunting is done within these ranges, but maybe some like to set up some steel and paper targets, and bang it out at long ranges.  Your 125gr Nosler BT's are going to go transonic and spread out wildly well before 1K, even though they drop the least at 500.

Try running the numbers out to 1200-1300yds.  See if you don't find out how the .308 takes a back seat to a .260/7mm08 with a fast-twist barrel.  Then imput the 7mm-08Ai data.  Find out which bullet goes transonic first.

If all I'd ever shoot in my life is to 500yds I'd be happy to live with your most outstanding data that you looked up.

I will say this to end, if you can get a good 155gr Lapua Scenar load, and maybe a good 210VLD/208 A-Max load for a .308, then you can get somewhat close.



Offline Coyote Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2009, 08:41:59 pm »
diggler1833 –

I guess I was assuming this is what we were talking about:

Quote from: diggler1833
For most practical shooting the .308 is all you need.


And I submit that ***most*** “practical shooting” is done at 500 yards or less.  Probably what – 98-99% of all shots fired?  Maybe more? 

If I wanted a custom, low recoil, long range rifle I would build a 6.5mm-06AI.  Indeed, I am in the process of doing exactly that, with a 1-8 twist.  The intended bullet for hunting purposes is the 130g Scirocco II (BC .571) and Berger bullets will be among the bullets used for long range targets.

Comparing the following:
.260 Rem = 140g Target BT (BC .618, SD .283) @ 2900fps (if you can get it to go that fast)
6.5mm-06AI = 130g Scirocco II (BC .571, SD .266) @ 3200fps (just 50fps faster than Nosler 6.5mm-06 data)
7mm-08AI = 180g VLD (BC .659, SD .319) @ 2800fps (if you can get it to go that fast)
.308 Win = 165g AB (BC .475, SD .248) @ 2910fps (Nosler 6th)
.308 Win = 180g AB (BC .507, SD .271) @ 2718fps (Nosler 6th)

Yields these results:

.260 Rem = 140g Target BT, 296yds = MPBR zero;  500yds = -32.2”, 2217fps, 1527fpe
6.5mm-06AI = 130g Scirocco II, 322yds = MPBR zero;  500yds = -24.3”, 2417fps, 1686fpe
7mm-08AI = 180g VLD, 288yds = MPBR zero;  500yds = -35.0”, 2170fps, 1881fpe
.308 Win = 165g AB, 291yds = MPBR zero; 500yds = -35.5”, 2039fps, 1523fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, 274yds = MPBR zero;  500yds = -42.0”, 1930fps, 1489fpe

And at 1500 yds:
.260 Rem = 140g Target BT, MPBR Zero @ 296yds;  1500yds = -804”, 1172fps, 427fpe
6.5mm-06AI = 130g Scirocco II, MPBR Zero @ 322yds;  1500yds = -691”, 1214fps, 425fpe
7mm-08AI = 180g VLD, MPBR Zero @ 288yds;  1500yds = -826”, 1188fps, 564fpe
.308 Win = 165g AB, MPBR Zero @ 291yds;  1500yds = -1060”, 977fps, 349fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 274yds;  1500yds = -1154”, 976fps, 380fpe

Your claim that the 7mm-08AI cartridge provides “an effective target range of 200-300yds more than the .308” doesn’t wash, either.

7mm-08AI = 180g VLD, MPBR Zero @ 288yds;  1500yds = -826”, 1188fps, 564fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 291yds;  1390yds = -825”, 1024fps, 384fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 274yds;  1350yds = -826”, 1038fps, 430fpe

At those energies I hope you are punching paper, not game.  Let’s call it 110-150 yards, even with crappy Nosler AB bullets for the .308.  Of course when you’re dealing with bullet drops of 68 feet for starters, does turning the knobs another couple clicks really make a huge difference?


But again, I thought we were talking about *** most practical shooting*** situations, which does certainly not include ranges like these. 

From a ***practical*** standpoint, it rarely makes a difference whether you carry a .260 Rem, 7mm-08 or AI, or .308 Win.  Any will do the job most people ask them to do most of the time.  The 1000-yard plus shooters are a rather elite group and few in number - at least the ones that are any good at it.  (I assume you are one of the elite.  I’ve never shot past 1000 yards and rarely shoot past 600.)

Thanks for the link to the online ballistic calculator.  I have downloaded the free Point Blank calculator available at www.huntingnut.com and have used it for a number of years.  I much prefer it to most calculators as it has a button to calculate MPBR zeros and ranges.

I also use “iSnipe” and “Ballistic” which I downloaded to my iPhone.  Cost was about $8 total, I believe, and both are recommended.

Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline diggler1833

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2009, 07:41:18 am »
diggler1833 –


Your claim that the 7mm-08AI cartridge provides “an effective target range of 200-300yds more than the .308” doesn’t wash, either.

7mm-08AI = 180g VLD, MPBR Zero @ 288yds;  1500yds = -826”, 1188fps, 564fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 291yds;  1390yds = -825”, 1024fps, 384fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 274yds;  1350yds = -826”, 1038fps, 430fpe




Let's agree to disagree.  I just wanted to include that small quote up above though to let you know that at your 1300yds your 180AB is subsonic.  And yes, your figures on the 7mm-08AI are keepint it supersonic at a greater range past 1500.  There are your 200-300yds that "didn't wash".  You also never included in your extensive data research anything for wind drift.  I am going to say it again, that ballistically the longrange effects of the .260/7mm-08 are superior (even the little .243) to the .308.  Isn't that what this whole disagreement started over?

I'm not going to bring in the short action/long action debate, I just don't have the energy nor the desire to fight over the internet about how a long action 6.5-06AI is better than a .260 Remington.  The 6.5-06AI is better, and it should be for all the extra case capacity.  I just hope you like to rebarrel a lot or shoot a little.  Should make for a good open country hunting rifle though.

You enjoy your shooting, and I'll enjoy mine.  You've probably been very successful in your shooting/hunting ventures.  I'm not knocking that.  I've just got my own personal experiences and I know what works from those.

It may even surprise you to know that the rifle I'm finishing up for a few matches this year is a .308.  It is not like I don't dislike the caliber, I love it.  It is more economical and pleasant to shoot than a lot of other calibers.   It's just not as good as cutting through the wind or stays supersonic as long as the .260/7mm-08/AI.  'Nuff said.

Good day.


Offline BRL

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 576
  • Gender: Male
    • Premium Nutrition
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2009, 05:02:53 pm »
Kix, After carefully reading the last several posts and acknowledging some of the points...I'd like to add something to the thread you've started here.

Yes, I love and respect the .30-06. 
B. Leeber
Nutritional Biochemist

Offline Coyote Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2009, 05:15:51 pm »

Let's agree to disagree. 

Sounds good to me.  I stand in awe of anyone that can hit anything at ranges past 1000 yards, but don't think such shooting bears much relation to "most practical shooting".
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline diggler1833

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2009, 05:37:02 pm »

Let's agree to disagree. 

Sounds good to me.  I stand in awe of anyone that can hit anything at ranges past 1000 yards, but don't think such shooting bears much relation to "most practical shooting".

I agree with you.  My apologies to the original poster for hijacking the thread.  Let's consider the matter settled .

Offline rickt300

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3047
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2009, 06:54:29 am »
When I had my first custom rifle built it was ordered as a 270.  It came to me as a 30-06 but with the option to get it rebarreled for free if it didn't suit me.  Being 30 years old and getting ready to go to the Wyoming oilfields I said I would give it a try.  It had the original 2 groove Springfield barrel that was so nice inside the gunsmith thought it should be given a try instead of being pulled off.  I found it normally pushed bullets more than 100 fps faster than other barrels of the same length.  It gave 2850 fps with 180 grain bullets and 3065 fps with 165 grain bullets.  Topped with a 4x Leupold it handily took everything I shot with it, at short or long range.  I made some really long shots with it on antelope and elk and some excellent shots in timber on elk with this rifle.  I still have it and consider it more of an elk rifle than a whitetail rifle.  The 30-06 seems to me to be a bit much on Texas whitetails but just fine on feral hogs.  It still goes on a couple of hunts every year with me but my 7x57 has taken over the role of my standard Texas deer rifle.
I have been identified as Anti-Federalist, I prefer Advocate for Anarchy.

Offline jmayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 941
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2009, 07:10:07 am »
The 30-06 seems to me to be a bit much on Texas whitetails but just fine on feral hogs.

I agree about the 30-06 being a bit too much for Texas whitetails, but I still hunt with mine (150gr bullets).  I think it is also too big for feral hogs...especially if you want them for meat.  Most of the hogs in Texas are 100lbs or less.  My 30-06 tends to tear up too much meat on hogs of that size.  I like using a well-placed shot with a smaller caliber.  But the 30-06 still kills them just the same...so it still goes out with me and if it was my only choice, I'd be quite happy with it.

Offline JPShelton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 533
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2009, 02:34:03 am »
The 700 Remington in .30-06........

It don't get no better!

On the contrary.  I'd say that my old G & H Model 1903 Springfield was better.  Much, much better.

My CZ 550 that replaced the Springfield would qualify as much, much better, too.

So would a Pre-'64 Winchester Model 70.

So would an old Browning "Safari" on the FN commercial '98 Mauser action.

Heck, I'd rather shoot an old J.C. Higgins Model 50 (or whatever that old Husqvarna Mauser was that Sears used to sell before I was born) than a Remington M-700.

In fact, there are a whole lot of other hunting rifles that I'd rather shoot than a Remington Model 700.

There aren't many other cartridges that I'd rather hunt big game with than the .30-'06, though.  In fact, for just about any game over 150 pounds on the hoof, there ISN'T any cartrdige I'd rather shoot.

-JP

Offline charles p

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2531
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2009, 06:16:41 am »
I bought a 742 in 1967 in 30-06.  Still have it and it still works fine.  My next 06 was a Rem 700 Classic, back in the initial years of Classic production.  Still have some of it.  It is now a 280 AI.  Bought an ADL about a year ago from Wally World when Remington had the rebate program.  Had $295 in the rifle.  Sold it to a friend.

I've taken about 50 deer with a 30-06.  It will get'er done.

Offline Halwg

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2009, 06:58:33 am »
I bought a 30-06 in 1976 because I started hunting areas where the 35 Remington I was using did not have a flat enough trajectory for some of the longer shots I was presented.  I hunted with it (30-06) exclusively for 25 years on WV & PA whitetails.  I probably shot close to 50 deer with it in that time.  It did a great job, but on shorter shots was overkill, and would tend to ruin a lot of meat, depending on shot placement and range.

Around 2002, I started hunting an area that is woods and brush and presents shots usually under 75 yards.  Guess what...I went back to the 35 Remington.  In those 7 hunting seasons since, I have killed 15 deer with the 35, and it does a great job without doing the extensive meat damage.  I haven't used the 30-06 since.

So it all boils down to what you are hunting and where you are hunting.  If I would be so lucky to draw an elk or moose permit (I haven't in 15 years of trying!), the 30-06 with 180 gr or 200 gr Nosler Partition bullets would be my choice.  Also if I was hunting mule deer at longer ranges, it would be the perfect gun, as well. 
The older I get...The better I was.

Offline Dixie Dude

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4157
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2009, 07:08:22 am »
Would a heavier bullet punch through the short range whitetails without a lot of meat damage?  Like 180 gr.  It does down here in the south.  The 150's explode, the 180's punch through.  165's can also punch through.  A lot depends on the bullet type, not the caliber.     

Offline jmayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 941
Re: The 30/06
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2009, 07:22:01 am »
Dixie Dude, of the deer I've shot with the 30-06, most have fallen to 165gr Rem Core-lokts and they have almost all passed through and not done a lot of damage unless I hit them in the shoulder or the spine.  I think the 30-06 is about as versatile as a cartridge can be but is ideal for large whitetail up to elk.  The reason I think it might be a bit too much for most of our central Texas whitetail is I saw my brother-in-law drop 4 doe one day with a .223.  Most were under 100yds, but one was 240yds away.  If a .223 (with the right bullet) can do that effectively, then it seems that the 30-06 is more lead, more powder, and more recoil than you really need...but it still does the job.

 

go2gbo.com Webutation