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Author Topic: 98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?  (Read 2034 times)

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Offline Willyp

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« on: September 26, 2004, 09:26:14 am »
I had a Mauser rebarreled to a 308 Rem. My problem is this , the darn thing with not pick up and cycle the 308's ,into the chamber !!!! They jam,half way in. The rear of the case does not slide into the bolt.
I was told,by a fellow,that a few Nations changed the 98's,to 308.and had to build a ramp ahead of the the chamber end of the clip ?   This was to guide the rear of the case up and into the bolt face ?
Does anybody here, know how to or where,to get this part ? Or how to make one !
Willyp

Graybeard Outdoors

98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« on: September 26, 2004, 09:26:14 am »
 

Offline gunnut69

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2004, 11:58:43 am »
The problem is the mauser was built to feed a round that has more taper to the case.  The feeding rails or guides are part of the action and not a part of the magazine box as in the M700. The feed rails are not turning loose of the round before the bullet tries to turn the corner into the chamber.  The smith who barreled the actions should have checked feeding before returning the piece.  I would take it back and let him correct it.  This is not a really good place to learn..  a mistep here can cause much feeding problems.  Actions can even be ruined by improperly opening the feed rails.
gunnut69--
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"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Offline Judson

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2004, 02:57:37 pm »
Gunnut69 is right, however if the "Gunsmith" in question could not get that right the first time I would think twice about taking it back to him!!!
   He should have made sure it fed right before it left his shop.    If you bring it back to him he might really screw it up like gunnut 69 mentioned.     My opinion for what it is worth is find a real gunsmith.
There is no such thing as over kill!!!!  :-)

Offline Mikey

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2004, 05:30:50 am »
Willyp:  actually, if your gunsmith can't get it right, and if the 308 doesn't shoot the way you would like it to, get the dang thing rebarrelled back to the 8x57mm caliber - I think it's better than the 308 anyhow, and by a long run, and don't see why folks just either leave the original barrel on if she shoots well or rebarrell to the same caliber.  That way you won't have any muss or fuss, and the 8mm will do everything you need it to do.  Just my opinion though.  Mikey.

Offline gunnut69

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2004, 11:56:48 am »
I understand where JUDSON is coming from but believe a person can make mistakes and can fix them.  I was in a shop a few years ago and a 'gunsmith' was returning a m98 he had rebarreled to 25-06.  This case is much longer than the original 8x57 and is almost always a problem to get to feed.  When asked how well it fed he said OK I guess.  I told him that unless he'd worked on it I really doubted that it'd work at all.  He tried it(with a live round-shudder,shudder) and of course it refused to feed.  He said it really didn't matter as the owner had asked to have it rebarreled, not that it feed the new round.. and he could return it if he wasn't happy!  This guys a good smith but really doesn't want to work on rifles..  Take it to the guy and tell him what it's doing.  If he damages the action he can replace it...  If he worked on the the rifle and it won't function he failed to do his job and should be made to stand behind the work..
gunnut69--
The 2nd amendment to the constitution of the United States of America-
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Offline Big Paulie

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mauser conversion to .308
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2004, 10:15:56 am »
Dear Guys,

   This is a very common problem with this conversion.  After spending $2,300 with my gunsmith for this conversion and other items, I received my mauser back, after 10 months, untested for feed, and jamming on every 4th or 5th round.  Absolutely incredible that they don't carefully check this before it leaves the shop.

   When I took it back to the smith, he acted like I was some sort of trouble maker, and begrudingly took it back for more work for free.  Eight months later, I got it back, and it worked fine.   He had done the following:

   1.  As recommended in almost all old gunsmithing books, he had welded two very small metal rails running vertically on each side, on the inside of the magazine.  The purpose of these rails was so that when loading the shorter .308 rounds, the rounds would be forced to be pushed to the very rear of the magazine, with the shoulder of the rounds being tight behind the rails.  The rounds would be then held in place there, because the rails lined up with the shoulders and none of the rounds in the magazine  could slide forward in the magazine before they were being pushed out of the top of the magazine by the bolt.  This is mentioned as being very important in the gunsmith books, because otherwise, if the rounds are free to slide back and forth in the long magazine, then they will do this during firing of the rifle, and carry, and they will all be lined up differently in the magazine as you try to work your bolt.

    2.  He had obviously exerted some great bending pressure on the lips of the magazine, as I could see various tool marks.

     After these adjustments, all rounds fed and ejected perfectly.

    If I had to do it again, I would:

1.  Make a spacer to take up the front part of the rilfle magazine, by taking a magazine from a .45 pistol or other suitable size round, making a perpendicular cut across the top of it, and then cutting it downward through the length of the pistol magazine.  Obviously, the original width of the pistol magazine must be such that it will slide down into your rifle magazine, and be fairly tight.

2.  After doing step 1, before sliding the spacer down into the magazine, I would use acra-glass gel to make a feed ramp that would go on the top of the cut magazine.  It does not have to be a steep feed ramp. Just enough to gently lift the nose of the round up to the level of the barrel throat.  

3.   After steps 1 and 2, then slide the spacer in, but do not fix it in permanently with accra-glass or welding etc.  Test the feeding over and over to make sure that your ramp works right.  Use files and sandpaper to adjust and smooth the feed ramp.  Once you get it right, carefully mark the proper depth of the spacer into your magazine, pull it out about half way, put some acra-glass jell on the sides, and slide it back down in the magazine to the marked depth.  Then let it dry.  


    If you don't want to try the foregoing, then here is the easiest way: See if on a web sites os used parts etc., and find were you can buy the entire bottom metal from a short round (.308 or .243) Interarms Mauser Rifle.  (They made thousands of these in the Mark X model, as well as other names such as the Viscount, and the Muskateer)  The basis of these rifles is the Yugo model 98 mauser rifle, and I believe that with some very minor fitting, the bottom metal would fit fine on any other classic model 98 mauser.  (I think that the hole spacing for the guard screws differs by a couple hundredthss of an inch from the standard model 98 rifles.)  These Interarms rifles feed very well.  I can't remember whether they have placed the spacer at the rear end or the front end of the magazine.

    I don't think that you are going to find the part you need from an Israeli converted model 98 rifle.  These conversions were done in the 1950s and 1960s in an Israeli arsenal.  Being war guns, they are also pretty rough.  The only way I think you would be able to get one would be to buy an entire converted Israeli rifle, which I think you can get for as little as $125 in poor shape.  But then, you are stuck with the receiver.

Hope this helps.

Mannyrock

Offline gunnut69

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2004, 12:24:27 pm »
BigPaulie-  Was this a 98 mauser action?  Why would the smith have been bending the magazine on a mauser?  The feed controls on a mauser are a part of the receiver, not the magazine.  Blocking a magazine is a good idea but the feeding problems here are from the feed rails not releasing the straighter cased 308 before the bullet impacts the feed ramp.  The cure is a slight widening of the feed rails in the action at the front.  This allows the staighter case to pop free and up under the extractor claw before the feed ramp is reached.  It will never feed quite as slick as a 7x57 or the like as the straighter case and more abrupt shoulder just doesn't slide out of the mag as easily.  Still that smith acted poorly as did the guy I spoke of.  Anyone can make a mistake but should be allowed to correct it before being harshly judged.  Also, generally magazine blocks such as you described are inserted at the rear of the magazine box.  This is to minimize the distance the round has to go before it finds the chamber.  As you allude there is no excuse for a rifle not having been function checked before leaving the shop.
gunnut69--
The 2nd amendment to the constitution of the United States of America-
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Offline Willyp

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2004, 12:35:44 pm »
Big Paulie,you know what I am talking about ! I'm glad that someone understood the problem.
As to ever coverting a Mauser agan,there in no way I'd ever do it !!!!!!! I have two done and could never get back the money i put into them. They don't suit me at all. Sell them.some one may say,but to whom ?
Willyp

Offline Big Paulie

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2004, 10:06:35 am »
Willy,

    I absolutely totally agree.

    But, at the time I did my conversion, there was NOBODY making 98 mausers in .308 Winchester.    Since that time, however, Charles Daly has started importing new commercial 98 mausers in many calibers, including .308.  And you know what?  I believe that these are being made at the exact factory and on the exact equipment in former Yugo that was making 98 mausers for Interarms!  It would be easy to check with Charles Daly to make sure that these rifles are blocked, for the shorter round.

   Also, if you look at Gunlist or Shotgun news, I believe that you now see pretty often that new mausers are being offered in .308 Winchester, by various distributors.

    As to selling your rifle?   You can't.  Nobody will buy it in the present condition, unless you lie to them about it, which I don't recommend.  Go for a set of bottom metal from an Interarms Mark X, by checking all of the websites, includig auctionarms.com and gunbroker.com.

Best Regards,  poorer and wiser.  Big Paulie  (P.S.- It seemed like a real good idea at the time!)

Offline gunnut69

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2004, 10:52:03 am »
OK guys once again..  The bottom metal from the Daly's et al would make a nice addition to the rifle but will not affect the feeding problem you are having.  The feeding guides are part of the action on the mauser, NOT part of the magazine or bottom metal..  Replacing the magazine will install a block but the jamming in the feed process is caused by the feed rails on the action.  They have to be altered to feed the straighter cased 308 round...
gunnut69--
The 2nd amendment to the constitution of the United States of America-
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Offline Big Paulie

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2004, 02:19:39 pm »
Gunnut,

  You may very well be right.  The problem may very well be the feed rails.  My rifle was a beautiful, made in 1949, FN Supreme Mauser.  It was originally in 30-06.

   Perhaps the  tool marks on my magazine were put there by the Smith by clamps and plyers when he was trying to weld the steel rails on the inside of the magazine?

   I wonder though, when the Israeli Defense Force was modifying all of those thousands of old Mauser 98 Carbines to convert them to 7.62 Nato in the arsenals, were they hand filing and hand adjusting the feed rails in those beat-up old rifles?  I kinda think that they were just installing the new magazine spacer,  with the little feed ramp on top, and then letting them go.

   Maybe the IDF only fooled with the feed rails if a particular rifle showed jamming  problems upon later testing?

   Interestingly enough, the 1903 Springfieds, originally in 30-06, are prettly easily converted to .308 Winchester by just having the Smith yank the barrel, set it back by cutting off a quarter inch or so at the receiver end, and reinstalling/reheadspacing the barrel.   I studied this conversion alot, and virtually everyone I talked to said that it was rare to have feed problems after this conversion, even with no work on the feed rails.   Maybe the fact that the receiver was designed for the 30-06, rather than the 8mm mauser, had something to do with it?

Best Regards,  Big Paulie

Offline gunnut69

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98 Mauser [8mm] to 308 Rem. Problem ?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2004, 09:36:06 am »
Having done little with the springfield action as far as conversions I am unsure but the 30-06's shape has more in common with an 8x57 than with the much straighter cased 308but it's longer length may have allowed the rails to turn loose a bit earlier.  I simply don't have enough information.   The feed rails on a mauser action(the springfield is a mauser, they even paid mauser a royalty) control the width of the feed opening which controls the cartridges height in the action.  They also control the point at which the round is released by the action for capture by the bolt.  The problem with altering to the 308 is that the rails hold the cartridge down too long.  It starts up the ramp before releasing and is jammed there by the advancing bolt.  Once the rail dimensions are determined a jig could easily be made to alter the rails to feed the shorter more straight cased 308.  Setting this shape by hand can be done but a jig and a mill would be a much more reliable method..  The magazine box does control the magazine stack width, which of course controls the feed angles.  This is important when converting to a round with a greater diameter as this makes the angle less and causes round to be less securely held by the feed rails.  Making a mauser feed is not magic but does require a bit of thinking.  Thousands have been converted to almost any caliber you can name and quite successfully.  A custom rifle seldom can be sold for the amount invested and the suitability or useability of the custom is up to the owner.  If the smith didn't do his job return the rifle and let him fix his error.  If the rifle doesn't fullfil your needs, then you specified the wrong ideas at the time of construction..  Perhaps we need a thread about what we would want in a custom rifle.  If a custom doesn't fit or the function is failing, either your specifications were lacking or the smith didn't carry out your wishes..and needs to correct his error..  I think a custom rifle is a wonderful thing.  I've built many all the way from simple cut down mausers to full blown customs..  All were custom in one way or another.
gunnut69--
The 2nd amendment to the constitution of the United States of America-
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

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