Author Topic: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard  (Read 1973 times)

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Offline flmason

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.45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« on: March 07, 2012, 09:09:25 pm »
Hi All,
    Was reading around the web and came up on the issue that Handi's have microgroove barrels for a time. Artifact of Marlin having owned them for a while.

Anyone know when that started and stopped?

Since I'm planning on cast bullets, would prefer the Ballard rifling. Wondering how likely it would be to end up with a Microgroove if I ended up ordering a rifle unseen?

Was microgroove long enough ago to make it unlikely end up with one new-in-box these days?

(Why do they keep monkeying with classic designs? LOL! Just make the good ones and be done with it, geez, I used to think firearms industry was immune to this stuff.)


Offline ratdog

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 10:35:51 pm »
my handy 45-70  looks like micro groove shoots the lead real good .my marlin lever action is not as accurate need to slug barrel to see if it is oversize.

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 05:28:06 am »
Just because it is new in the box doesn't mean it was made last week.
I have seen many that are 4-5-6 years old or more.
Been stored in some big distributors warehouse for years.
Check the serial # is the only way to know for sure.
 
 
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Offline r29l20

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 05:55:49 am »
Is there an easy way to tell, by looking ?

Offline Swampman

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 06:00:54 am »
During the time that Marlin owned them, weren't all of the Marlin .45-70s getting Ballard barrels?
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline jlchucker

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 06:38:19 am »
During the time that Marlin owned them, weren't all of the Marlin .45-70s getting Ballard barrels?

I bought mine in 1982, and it has a microgroove barrel.  It's always shot cast bullets very nicely--mostly gaschecked RCBS 300 and 405 grainers, but some Lee plain-base too.  At the time I bought this rifle I didn't realize that there was some sort of issue with cast bullets and microgroove.  Lately, after reading a bunch of comments on this website and others, I've been watching to see if my Marlin has developed problems with cast bullets.  Glad to say, not.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 08:12:45 am »
Marlin was still making H&R barrels in 2010, dunno if they still do tho, I believe they are, my 45-70 Talo Trapper which was made since then has the same rifling as my 2008 SS Ultra Hunter which I think i MG or at least a made for H&R Marlin version of it, read the entire thread below.  ;)

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Offline keith44

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 09:16:41 am »
Mine is micro groove, and shoots cast just fine, it does seem to like oversized hard cast better than soft, and shoots them better when loaded on the warm end of lever gun pressures.


Here's an attempt at a picture of micro groove rifling if ya can zoom in far enough you can see small spiral grooves cut instead of the traditional narrow lands and grooves.



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Offline OldBob

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 03:06:16 pm »
   Don't let the "experts" fool ya, micro groove barrels will shoot cast just fine, size your bullets about .002" oversize and blast away !
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Offline gendoc

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 03:33:44 pm »
   Don't let the "experts" fool ya, micro groove barrels will shoot cast just fine, size your bullets about .002" oversize and blast away !

thatsa right ol'bob........ ;)   there plenty of'um here ::)
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Offline flmason

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 08:29:56 pm »
Mine is micro groove, and shoots cast just fine, it does seem to like oversized hard cast better than soft, and shoots them better when loaded on the warm end of lever gun pressures.


Here's an attempt at a picture of micro groove rifling if ya can zoom in far enough you can see small spiral grooves cut instead of the traditional narrow lands and grooves.

On this monitor, not easy to tell, but I'm familiar with microgroove. Never thought of it as a detractor, least not in .22's. But that is a different thing from a .458 diameter... but velocities not too different actually.

Offline flmason

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 08:32:15 pm »
   Don't let the "experts" fool ya, micro groove barrels will shoot cast just fine, size your bullets about .002" oversize and blast away !

thatsa right ol'bob........ ;)   there plenty of'um here ::)

Well, was thinking there could be 2 possible issues with microgroove in this caliber...

1) With cast bullets and high pressure loads... stripping... grooves not imparting spin.

2) With black powder loads... filling with fouling more easily... leading to #1 possibly.

Offline keith44

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 10:51:08 pm »
1) I size mine either .459, or .460 depending on the bullet and the load.  I use up to the starting loads for Ruger 1.  I have never noted any inaccuracies, or found evidence of "stripping the rifling" (no lead build up with properly assembled loads using properly hard bullet alloy) so like your .22 LR reference (and my Marlin .22 magnum has a micro groove barrel) there are no issues here that you would not have with ballard or conventional rifling.


2) Others have developed black powder loads for the handi, but my efforts at a straight BP load came up a bit short in accuracy. Here's a link to a story that inspired me to try it; [size=78%]http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm[/size]



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Offline ratdog

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 02:28:10 am »
my 44 marlin had ballard it was very accurate.first one i have seen.

Offline mechanic

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 05:05:17 pm »
   Don't let the "experts" fool ya, micro groove barrels will shoot cast just fine, size your bullets about .002" oversize and blast away !

thatsa right ol'bob........ ;)   there plenty of'um here ::)

+2
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Offline jlchucker

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2012, 05:10:46 pm »
   Don't let the "experts" fool ya, micro groove barrels will shoot cast just fine, size your bullets about .002" oversize and blast away !

thatsa right ol'bob........ ;)   there plenty of'um here ::)

+2

+3, Ol' Bob.  Didn't Harry Pope use an early version of microgrooves?  I think they called them something like Polygrooves back in the day.  Smokeless powder hadn't even appeared on the scene yet. 

Offline tacklebury

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2012, 08:51:18 am »
You may be thinking of Forsythe rifling.  Very small lands with wide grooves in a slow twist.  The forsythe rifled barrels were primarily used because they stabilize round ball better, especially in the .62 caliber plus sizes.  You may be talking about something else also, just thinking this was still in use in varying forms during the 1800's.  ;)
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Offline OldBob

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2012, 11:14:04 am »
   As far as black powder, try using a duplex load, they will burn clean as a whistle if done right, otherwise use compression, veggie wads, a proper B.P. lube ;D ;D and maybe....voodoo ???
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Offline keith44

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2012, 03:23:31 pm »
just because it's black does not mean it has to have voodoo  ;D
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Offline Rustyinfla

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2012, 03:35:45 pm »


   Check with Veral Smith over on his forum. In his book he says the Marlin rifling is as close to Harry Pope's barrels as anyone makes today.
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Offline jlchucker

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2012, 08:28:43 am »


   Check with Veral Smith over on his forum. In his book he says the Marlin rifling is as close to Harry Pope's barrels as anyone makes today.

That may be where I read it.  I don't read news-stand gun magazines.  Veral knows what he's talking about more than gunrag writers do.  Harry Pope could shoot, as well as make fine barrels.  That was before the days of smokeless powder.

Offline Swampman

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2012, 08:35:13 am »
Even Sako used some Micro-Groove barrels.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline yukondog

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2012, 08:50:50 am »
If I'm not mistaken microgrove will have 12 land and groves.
an unloaded wepon is equal to the same mass and volume as a rock.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2012, 09:07:30 am »
Read the article that was quoted in the previous thread I posted.  ;)

Tim

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/microgrove-barrels.htm
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Offline TopperT

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Re: .45-70 Microgroove v. Ballard
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2012, 09:53:35 am »
Just an FYI on older "NEW" rifles.  Three weeks ago I picked up a .223 Superlight manufactured in 2000!  Thats 12 years old, but new-in-box.  Great rifle, just an FYI on older new stuff.  Its out there fur-sur.