Author Topic: FAQ's and HELP ****PLEASE READ!!!****  (Read 253681 times)

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Offline Duce

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FAQ's and HELP ****PLEASE READ!!!****
« on: February 07, 2004, 10:34:58 am »
H&R HandiRifle FAQ

PLEASE USE CONTROL F or F3 TO SEARCH THE PAGE

Hit F3 or hold down the ctrl key and hit f, a search window will open, type the word you're looking for and hit enter, keep hitting enter or next until you find what you're looking for.
   Command f for you Apple users.

GBO Chamber Reamers Available for Rent[/b]


Updated 1/1/2008 25-06 data added to Grampa Mike's info
1/2/2008 added BC stock part numbers and prices
1/7/2007 added twist rates for Handi-Mags
1/8/2007 added Reshaping Stocks link
1/11/2007 added stock finishing by Fred M to the Misc Handi info
2/3/2007 added LaOtto222's Pillar Bedding Instuctions
2/4/2007 added ATF State Laws and Ordinances link
11/21/2008 added Caution on Chamber lock use
9/15/2009 added twist rate for 357mag
10/15/2009 added camo laminated smooth forend part number
11/10/2009 added Make your own syn cheek riser
11/11/2009 added camo syn stock part numers and prices
11/18/2009 added 357Max on SB1 Frame
11/27/2009 added Handi Sling
12/03/2009 Metal trigger guard/space and Ilion satisfaction poll moved to FAQs
12/28/2009 Added Larry's scope base mouting hole fix
1/22/2010 Added Ilion's policy on trigger pull weight
Added Cut and Crown Video
Added Big Blue's Sight Height info to Sights section
Added temp conversion to extractor by OR-E-Gun Bill
2/23/2010Added forend screw torque
3/12/2010 Added 22 Jet twist and bore size
3/19/2010 Added Handi-Grip Stock info
4/13/2010 Added shimming barrel to eliminate lateral movement to Accurizing and Barrel fitting

5/17/2010 added Marking the barrel after rechambering
6/26/2010 Added BB's misfire discussion to Handi Basics 101
7/23/2010 Added Simple Extractor Improvement
8/3/2010 Added Fred's firing pin improvement
8/12/2010 Added Factory Sight Info
8/20/2010 Added Ebay/Numrich Hammer extension info
8/20/2010 Added Topper Trap Stock part numbers to retail page
9/03/2010 Added another source for T-hole stock bolt
9/04/2010 Added Rimfire Ammo Carrier Info
9/06/2010 Added Knight and Traditions Hammer Extensions
11/09/2010 Added SYNTHETIC STOCK REFINSHING BY IRONGLOW
11/09/2010 Added Barnes Twist Determination Method posted by Dinny
11/10/2010 Added Caution on Leadsled stock damage
11/17/2010 Updated WalMart Firearms Ordering info
02/09/2011 Added Huntsman Owner's Manual
05/03/2011 Added Dinny's ejector shim
07/25/2011 Added 35 Rem twist rate
07/26/2011 Added off center forend fix and synthetic forend spacer and repair



This FAQ was created as a resource for users of the Handi Rifles to use. Everyone is not aware that this page exists, so be polite in referring people to it.
Pick




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How do I break in a barrel?

Huntinbull
posted November 23, 2003 06:11 PM

He suggested shooting a new rifle only after cleaning it THOROUGHLY. Then shoot once and clean using good copper solvent. Do this for the first 20 rounds. Now increase your shot strings to three rounds, cleaning between each string. Do this for 60 rounds. Now increase your shot strings to 5 shots, cleaning between each string with regular Hoppes®. Do this for 40-80 rounds depending on how dirty the barrel is getting from the 5 shot strings. If it is still fouling a lot after 30-40 shots continue cleaning after each shot string for another 30-40 rounds.

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kbisbee posted November 23, 2003 08:56 PM
His alternative method is:
You are right about going broke using that much ammo to break in a hunting rifle. Fire 10 rounds and clean between each round. Use ShooterChoice to swap the barrel then use bronze brush and wrap it with a cotton patch and apply J-B paste and short stroke it 20 to 30 times then swap the barrel with shooter choice after and follow with a dry patch and shoot one more, do this over again until 10 times. At the same time adjust your scope. Before you go hunting fire a fouling shot and check your scope setting with another shot. You don't clean anymore until you get your deer. Once you finish hunting you can clean as above and after every time you use your gun. That is all you need unless your gun gets wet in rain.

Note: J-B paste in non abrasive and made from diadamatious earth. It takes care of copper fouling in rough bores. Fred M.
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MINNESOTA DICK pointed out
posted December 27, 2003 07:21 AM
VarmitAl (varmital.com)says about barrel breakin at his web site.
NEW BARREL BREAK IN.... There is so much black magic out there about breaking in a barrel, that I am not going to suggest any procedure. I will merely tell you what I do with a new barrel. I take the brand new barrel and use J-B on it. That's right, I clean and polish it with J-B before even firing the first round through it. I put a light coat of J-B on a patch and give the barrel about 50 strokes from end to end with it. Then I clean the J-B out with a couple of patches of Shooter's Choice MC#7. I dry the bore with 3 or 4 patches until it is completely dry. I carefully clean the chamber of J-B too. That's it, the barrel is broken in and I am ready to sight in, shoot some groups, and work up an accurate load. I take the rifle to the range and shoot 3 or 4 five shot groups with Moly-coated bullets. I clean the barrel with Sweets and usually there is no copper. From then on, shooting only Moly-coated bullets, I clean the barrel when I feel guilty. If there is copper on the first cleaning, I conclude that I didn't do enough with the J-B and repeat the J-B treatment. All that these shoot-clean, shoot-clean, etc. break in processes do, in my opinion, is perform a slow, inefficient, and expensive polishing process which the J-B does better, smoother, and faster. I use a plastic coated stainless steel cleaning rod and a jag style that you wrap the patches around. I use the blue Shop Towels for patch material and I cut a roll into a number of 1-½-inch wide rolls with a sharp knife. I never use brushes in my barrels and I don't even have any. I use J-B, Shooter's Choice MC#7, and Sweets. I am sure there are other procedures that are just as good or superior, but this works very well for me. If I have a particularly bad copper fouling barrel, I use Flitz Metal Polish instead of JB.



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What are the rates of twist?
Duce
posted December 28, 2003 07:09 AM

.17M2 1 in 9"
.17 HMR 1 in 9"
.22 LR 1 in 16"
.22 WMRF 1 in 16"
.204 Ruger 1 in 12"
.22 Hornet 1 n 12" (original H&R pre '87 1:16"?)(or 1:9" for late production)
.22 Jet 1:16" .221 bore
.222 Rem 1:9"
.223 1 in 12", late models are a mix of 1:9"/1:12",  2007 and later Marlin produced barrels are 1:9", use instructions below to determine the twist rate.
.22-250 1 in 14"
.25/06 1 in 10"
.243 1 in 10"
.270 1 in 10"
.280 1 in 10"
.308 1 in 10"
.357 Mag 1 in 18"  or 1:15"
.357 Maxi 1 in 18"
.35 Remington 1 in 16"
.35 Whelen 1 in 16"
7mm-08 1 in 10"
7.62x39 1 in 9"
7x57 1 in 10"
7x64 1 in 10"
.30/30 1 in 10"
.30/06 1 in 10"
.38/55 1 in 18"
.44 Mag 1 in 38"
.444 Marlin 1 in 38" (original ejector)
.444 Marlin 1:20" (extractor 2007 and later)
.45/70 1 in 20"
.450 Marlin 1 in 20"
.45 Colt Carbine 1:16"
.45 Colt/410 1 in 16"
.500 S&W 1 in 18"

20 ga. 1 in 28"
12 ga. 1 in 35"

.45 cal Muzzleloader 1:56"
.50 cal Muzzleloader 1:28"
.58 cal Muzzleloader 1:66"

Current production .223 Rem barrels are being made by Marlin with a 1:9" right-hand twist, lands are .219"-.221" and groove is .2240"-.2255". Right now they still have some 1:12" Superlight barrels. (as of 7-5-2007)

How to determine the rate of twist of a barrel...http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,219757.msg1099197704.html#msg1099197704

It's real easy to determine what the rate of twist of a barrel is, all you need is a tight fitting jag and patch on the end of a cleaning rod. Insert the rod in the bore from either end. Push the rod into the bore until you almost reach the other end of the rifling. Wrap a flag of tape around the rod where it enters the chamber or muzzle. Withdraw the rod slowly making sure the rod can rotate freely following the twist of the rifling. When the tape flag has rotated exactly one full turn, measure from the tape to where the rod enters the bore, that is the rate of twist. On some rifles with slow twist like the 44mag which has a 1:38" twist rate, use a half turn of the rod and double the measurement, ie: 2x19"= 38".



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Sources of info on the 22 Hornet
This Austrailian site has about all the information that you will ever need to get started using the .22 Hornet. Unfortunately, the author is not listed; therefore, proper credit cannot be given. http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~bkhornet/22hornet.htm

 or

http://web.archive.org/web/20041027084138/http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~bkhornet/22hornet.htm

Link restored thanks to HimWill.



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357 Magnum conversion
There were a lot of people that contributed to this thread. Regrets if I don't get everyone properly credited but this was a lllloooonnnnggg thread to edit through. Pick¶
A .357 Reamers can be rented from 4D reamers.
Leftoverdj: posted several times in December 2003
The .357 Max is an easy rechamber with hand power. Might be a half hour job by hand doing it for the first time. Just need a reamer, a tee handle and some cutting oil. Don't even need headspace gauges since you stop when you touch the existing rim cut. Compressed air helps, but is not absolutely necessary.

JPH45 posted December 23, 2003 09:34 PM in a related thread
The 357 Maximum, operating at 48,000 cup as compared to the 30-30 operating at 38,000cup gives the same performance without nearly the recoil of the 30-30 or in your case the 35-30. Do a search and read the thread, "357 Maximum Strikes". This is a great chambering, and using the Hornady XTP 180, is an honest 150 yard point blank range gun and will do in any whitetail you are apt to get in your sights.

I did my rechambering to 357 Maximum figuring that if I wanted more gun all I would need to do is get another reamer and rechamber the gun again. I believe you will find the the 357 Maximum to be a most satisfactory chambering. Brass is readily available from several of the online catalogue suppliers and should be into the forseeable future.

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Can I put a rifle barrel on a shotgun frame?

H&R won't fit Rifle barrels other than 357mag and 44 mag on a shotgun frame since the shotgun frame is not heat treated to handle the pressure. Since rifle frames are heat treated investment cast alloy steel, they are safe to use higher pressures, the lower pressure shotgun barrels don't present a hazard to the firearm and/or user as the inverse does. The larger firing pin and surrounding hole in the frame is also an issue.



Click HERE to see the results of what might happen with a high pressure barrel on a shotgun frame.

The difference between SB1 and SB2 frames...

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,80979.msg498556.html#msg498556

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,228766.msg1099269851.html#msg1099269851

45LC barrel on an SB1 frame?
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Sources for ammo for 7 x 64 Brenneke?

If you have one of the rarer 7 x 64mm Brenneke, getting ammunition can be a challenge.
 
Midway-USA has a lot of 7x64mm Brenneke resources such as dies and Norma brass. There is Huntingtons of RCBS fame from Oroville, CA that has Norma bulk 7x64mm brass also listed as stock #27012A. Graf & sons has Norma brass under stock #N27012.'

Ammo sources are:


http://www.reedsammo.com/ GBO Sponsor

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/196

http://natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentID=productDetail&ammoGroup=1&brand=ZY&prodID=ZYSBA76402

http://www.cpcartridge.com/7X64P.htm





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Sources for choke tubes for H&R shotguns that use choke tubes?
MSP Ret
posted December 28, 2003 07:10 PM
The Winchoke system of chokes = Winchester/Mossberg 500 series/Browning Invector, will fit the H&R shotguns that accept choke tubes.



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CONTACT INFO FOR NEF/H&R


Phone: toll free-(866)776-9292
                       

Main web page: www.hr1871.com

Accessory Barrel list: http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.asp

Canadian Service at:
Long's
Colburg, Ontario
Phone: 905-797-2700

and

Ultimate Accuracy
St. Andrews, Manitoba
Phone: 204-785-2609

Canadian online firearms available at Wholesale Sports:

http://www.wholesalesports.com/onlinestore/control/category/~category_id=10110/~pcategory=10100

What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!


Offline Duce

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Velocity Gain or Loss
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2004, 10:12:27 am »
People: A little something I found over at Chuck Hawks that might be of interest.

Velocity loss (or gain) by chuck hawks
What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!

Offline Mac11700

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Mfr years for H&R/NEF firearms
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2006, 11:56:32 pm »
Year starting S.N. Prefix
1940 A
1941 B
1942 C
1943 D
1944 E
1945 F
1946 G
1947 H
1948 I
1949 J
1950 K
1951 L
1952 M
1953 N
1954 P
1955 R
1956 S
1957 T
1958 U
1958 V
1960 W
1961 X
1962 Y
1963 Z
1964 AA
1965 AB
1966 AC
1967 AD
1968 AE
1969 AF
1970 AG
1971 AH(snap on forend)
1972 AJ
1973 AL
1974 AM
1975 AN
1976 AP(first transfer bar on model 155)
1977 AR
1978 AS (Transfer bar added to all models) http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,228789.msg1099298912.html#msg1099298912
1979 AT
1980 AU
1981 AVAX
1982 AWAY
1983 AXAZ
1984 AYBA
1985 AZBB
1986 BABC

Second letter of prefix starting with N or H.....

A= 1986  H&R will only fit the original chambering(replacement for defective rifle), 357Mag, 44mag, and shotgun barrels to these frames
B= 1987
C= 1988
D= 1989
E= 1990
F= 1991
G= 1992
H= 1993
I= 1994
J= 1995
k= 1996
L=1997                   
M=1998
N=1999
                     
P=2000
R=2001
S=2002
T=2003
U=2004
V=2005
W=2006
X=2007
Y=2008 serial number prefixes changed in May 2008 and on, CBA for SB2 and CAC for SB1, the only source for build year is to call and ask (866)776-9292.

http://www.hr1871.com/Support/accessoryProgram.asp


SBS=  Factory Scoped Combo Handi http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,108336.msg1098317469.html#msg1098317469


The first letter N = NEF, H = H&R, the second letter denotes year of manufacture.

Ilion made barrels will have the last 4 digits of the frame serial number engraved on the left side of the barrel underlug, earlier barrels made in Gardner will have just the last three.

As a rule shotgun barrels were never stamped, unless it was a barrel fit.
As for rifle barrels, if they were etched, they were original barrel to receiver fits. If they were stamped with either  a 3 digit number (Gardner Ma. ) or a 4 digit number ( Ilion). They were an accessory barrel fit.


High Pressure Chamberings on older SB2 frames

Click For Sidekick production info
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Mac11700

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Usefull Links
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2006, 02:07:08 pm »
Here's some usefull links..

GBO sponsors

http://www.handirifle.com/

http://www.milesfortis.us/church/akc02.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/indexcont.html

hodgdon extreme

Hodgdon, IMR, WW Data

Alliant powder

http://accuratearms.com/reloading.htm

http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?s1=5&s2=15

http://www.norma.cc/sida/eng/index.html

http://www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide/equivalents.asp

Barnes Loading Data

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm

http://www.lasc.us/BurnRatePrint.htm

http://www.shootguns.info/ammo.htm

http://cpcartridge.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

Nosler Seconds

Nosler Loading data

http://www.forsterproducts.com/

http://www.hornady.com/contact_us.php

http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/chamber_reamers.asp

http://www.ch4d.com/

http://www.mansonreamers.com/

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html


http://www.e-gunparts.com

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/borecleaning.html

http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3

http://www.competitor-pistol.com/jb%20home.html

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/4570_leverguns.htm

http://www.levergun.com/Marlin/index.html

http://www.mastercast.net/cast_bullets.htm

Chronographs

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

Killing Power

Soft nose cast bullets

Rust Preventatives Tested

More Rust Preventatives Tested

ATF Publication- State Laws and Published Ordinances- Firearms

http://www.tarjac.com/services.htm Custom firearm dipping/painting services

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

http://www.mountainmolds.com/helpRifle.htm

http://www.custombullets.com Jacketed .377"-.379" 38-55 bullets.

http://seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/bulletshootout.html

http://www.pennbullets.com/index.html

http://www.bulletsamples.com/

http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/twistrate.htm

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/everygun/

Shooting Industry Sales Stats

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

http://kwk.us/recoil.html



Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline quickdtoo

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MORE HANDI INFO
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2006, 04:53:07 pm »
The Book: H&R Arms Co. 1871-1986

Shotgun Chamber Adapters

Wildcatting on a Budget

Single Shot Rechambers

Rechambering 35 Remington to 356 Winchester by cwlongshot

WILL SECOND HAND BARRELS FIT?

Things to Check When Buying an H&R

H&R SERVICE NOTICE

Ilion Satisfaction Poll

Madison Customer Support Satisfaction Poll

Metal Trigger Guard and Spacer


CAUTION ON CHAMBER LOCK USE

CAUTION ON LEADSLED  STOCK DAMAGE

HUNTSMAN/SIDEKICK 25ACP BREECH PLUG

Easy as pie NO MOD #11 conversion for the newer Huntsmans/Sidekicks!!!

Another Primer Carrier Idea

A better BREECH PLUG TOOL

Another BREECH PLUG TOOL

And yet another BREECH PLUG TOOL

Vintage Screw-in Style Breech Plug Tool(.45 & .58 Cal)

45-70 Smokeless Muzzleloader Conversion

Sidekick and SB1/SB2 Differences

Synthetic Huntsman Forend

Huntsman Owner's Manual


Handi-Rifle Owner's Manual

Ultra Slug Hunter Parts Diagraml

Spare Parts Kit

Accessory Barrel Program Order Form



WALMART FIREARMS SPECIAL ORDER LIST AND INSTRUCTIONS

H&R RETAIL PARTS  (stocks and accessory barrels!!)

HANDI CARRYING CASES

POSTAL MATCH INFO

HOW TO POST PICS

HOW TO FIND OLD PAGES ON GBO FORUMS

H&R FACTORY TOUR VIDEO

The Handi-Rifle  A Brief Review by Dennis Dezendorf


JOHN TAFFIN ON THE 500S&W HANDI

LANE PEARCE ON THE 500S&W HANDI

The Prince and the Pauper Can Money Buy Accuracy?

H&R Ultra Hunter 308 Review

Testing Two Bullet Diameters in a .38-55 H&R Target Classic by Brian Newberry (Professor Bullspit)

38-55 Neck Reamer

H&R WISH LIST

30-06 Handi in Africa!!

Handi in Argentina


7.62x39 Handi info

45-70Handi versus 45-70 Sharps 

Let's See Some Handis!! LOTS of PICS!!

ATI Stock

FOLDING STOCK


7.62x39 Handi info

35 WHELEN HANDI DISCONTINUED and AMMO AVAILABILITY

35 WHELEN REPAIR


HANDRIFLE RECOIL by Caliber

RECOIL CALCULATOR


JOHN TAFFIN ON THE 500S&W HANDI

LANE PEARCE ON THE 500S&W HANDI


Homemade Portable Target Stand

Homemade Snapcaps

Saddle Ring Handi


What is this strange thing on my new rifle? View Port

Bulge at base of case after shooting in the Handi



Handloading for a Handi

Handloading for a Handi

204 Ruger Case Trimming

385gr Spitzer 500 S&W Thoughts!

Cast Bullet Accuracy

Gas-Checking PB Bullets

American's Mid-range Marvel, the 45-70 Government

WHAT LOAD LEVEL FOR 45-70?

1000yd 45-70 BC! 

A SIMPLE COL GAUGE

Fire Forming in a Handi by Fred M

Handloading for an Improved Chambered Handi

Handloading for the 45/410

Bore Slugging and Chamber Casting

Throating the 45-70

38-55 Neck Reamer

HANDLOADING FOR THE HANDI


BORE SLUGGING & CHAMBER CASTING

Custom-Fit Bullet Seating Stems by Marshall Stanton

Hot Glue practice bullets



357 Remington Maximum in Indiana

2009 Handi Rebates Expired 4/30/2009

Excel Ballistics Spreadsheet

Spreadsheet Formula Calculates Useful Barrel Life

Barrel Life and the TRUE Cost of Shooting






------------------------------------------------------------------

Painting and Refinishing your Handi

PAINT YOUR HANDI 1

PAINT YOUR HANDI 2

Bedliner Refinish

COLD BLUING

STOCK FINISHING BY FRED M

REFINISHING A LAMINATED STOCK

SYNTHETIC STOCK REFINSHING BY IRONGLOW

LOCKUP ISSUE AFTER PAINTING

REPAIRING STRIPPED BUTT PAD HOLES by Tallyho


Home Parkerizing by trotterlg

Refinishing frames and barrels


Make your own synthetic cheek riser


BRASS BUTT PLATE
--------------------------------------------------------------------



243 OR 30-30 FOR A YOUTH

Barrel Stubbing by trotterlg

Barrel Stubbing by D Humbarger

22 Hornet/12ga Insert by trotterlg

Problem scope base holes (alignment) How to Fix by trotterlg

Hand Reaming 357Mag to 357Max

HINT on reamer handle by Winterhawk: Connect a 3/8" drive socket extension to a 1/4" drive reducer.  The reamer fits in the 3/8" end and the 1/4" end goes into the tap handle!

Rechambering by Hand by cwlongshot

357 Max on an SB1 Frame

Shooting 38special and 357 Mag in Maxi?

357 MAX DIES

FYI: The seater plug for RCBS .38 spc, 357 mag, 357 max dies for spitzer type bullets is part number 90018.

Rechambering 308 to 307 (Rimmed to Rimless Discussion

H&R/TC Rechambering Chart...Not all can be done on an H&R, it includes Encore and Contenders

Marking the barrel after rechambering





Metal Trigger Guard

Handi-grip stock review by Mac11700




A Photo Tribute to mt3030

Remington Consolidation Plan



Butt stocks and most forends on all modern H&R/NEF single shot firearms are interchangable on all models with the exception of forends on some shotguns.

The forend screw on current production firearms with wood stocks and old style synthetic stocks is a "-20x" flathead machine screw, checkered synthetic forends are "20x", both are commonly available at Ace and True Value Hardware stores, be sure check the stainless section too.

Early H&R barrels use  a "-28x" forend screw, many hardware stores don't carry the "-28 but a metric screw in 6-16 flathead is a close fit and will do in a pinch.  -28 and -20 machine screws can be ordered from http://www.smallparts.com

The hammer extension set screw is an 8-32 socket head that takes a 5/64" or 1/16" allen wrench, depends on when the extension was made.

To remove the stock, remove the butt pad/plate, the bolt has a 9/16"(14mm) hex head, you'll need a long extension for your ratchet to reach it.

Synthetic Stock R&R

When installing a stock, hold the stock firmly against the mating surface of the frame, then start the bolt by turning the socket extension by hand, it's real easy to cross thread the bolt if it's not aligned perfectly, once it's started and turns freely, use the ratchet or whatever handle you want. A llittle white grease on the bolt will also aid in installation/removal. Make sure the hammer can be cocked after swapping a stock, some bolts (or stock bolt channels may be too short) without a washer may be too long and require at least one washer to provide sufficient hammer clearance within the action. Tighten the stock bolt to about 25-30ft/lbs.

The stock bolt is a standard 3/8"-24x 4" fine thread cap screw available at Ace, True Value, and other hardware stores, the Survivor and new style syn stock takes a 5" bolt. Be sure to have add a 10mm flat washer or two to insure the bolt isn't too long and interfere with hammer travel, 10mm washers are smaller in OD and fit best. Laminated thumbhole stocks take a 2" button head socket bolt, available from H&R or bolt supply houses. http://www.boltdepot.com/product.aspx?cc=13&cs=72&cm=25&cd=1229  http://www.palmerbolt.com/catalog.asp?prodid=617866&showprevnext=1

Monte Carlo stock set weights: Pallet= 1lb-9oz, New and Old style Syn= 1lb-4oz, Cinnamon Laminated= 2lbs

Choate Varmint set= 2lbs-2oz w/o adapter, t-hole laminated stock w/Decelarator pad= 1lb-8oz, Handi-grip = 1lb-3oz, BC Carbine set = 1lbs-6oz.

Synthetic youth =10.8oz

SB1 and SB2  frames weigh about the same at 23oz, I weighed one of each, the SB1 frame I weighed 23.1 oz, the SB2 weighed ~22.8oz.

Straight stock in .45LC    6 lbs 1.9 oz
Straight stock in .45-70  6 lbs  8.9 oz
Rifle stock in .45LC        5 lbs  15.3 oz
Rifle stock in .45-70       6 lbs  6.3 oz

A 22" 45-70 barrel weighs 56oz, 45LC without sights weighs 49oz, both with a scope rail.

BC forend is 11" long, not including the spacer.

BC Carbine forend is 8-3/16" long, not including the spacer.

Survivor Stock info

Standard barrel muzzle diameters range any where from .640" to .750", depending on length and chambering, bull barrels are ~.800" at the muzzle, 357 is ~.740", and the big bores are even bigger, up to ~.890" for the .500 S&W. My 243 Superlight is .637" and the 30-30 is .642", not a lot of difference for some barrels. Marv's superlight is .595" IIRC.

Current production .223 Rem barrels are being made by Marlin with a 1:9" right-hand twist, lands are .219"-.221" and groove is .2240"-.2255". Right now they still have some 1:12" Superlight barrels. (as of 7-5-2007)

UltraComp compensator removal and thread size

UltraComp Notice provide by OR-E-Gun Bill

What is a "Pallet" wood stock?

H&R vs NEF

Handi Sling

Rimfire Ammo Carrier

Spare Ammo Carrier Discussion

Wildcatting on a Budget

Single Shot Rechambers

Handi-Wizard

Octagon Barrel Part 1

Octagon Barrel Part 2
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline quickdtoo

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FAQ's and HELP
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 09:56:00 pm »
CONVERSION OF EJECTOR TO EXTRACTOR


TEMPORARY CONVERSION TO SPRING ETRACTOR

Another temporary conversion by OR-E-Gun Bill

PERMANENT CONVERSION TO SPRING EXTRACTOR

by Perklo

EXTRACTOR TO EJECTOR CONVERSION AND EJECTOR TO FACTORY EXTRACTOR


Ejector Parts


EJECTOR TUNE
Ejector function can be improved by flat honing the ejector on all contact surfaces and polishing th ejector housing with a piece of 600 wet/dry wrapped around a piece of steel. Then put a BB ahead of the spring before installing the spring to give it a little more tension. Lube with a dry lube like Hornady One Shot or Elmer's Slide-All. To get the ejector reinstalled with the BB behind the spring, put it all together then hold the barrel, vertical muzzle up, on a hard surface, push down on the barrel to push the ejector into position, then insert a punch thru the pin way as a slave pin to align things, knock the roll pin in from the opposite side as it pushes the punch back out. 

Tim


Ejector Fix by jeepmann1948

Ejector Shim by Dinny

Ejector Notch by Fred M

1st Generation extractor on top, ejector on bottom


Second generation extractor description

Second generation extractor


RIMMED TO RIMLESS EJECTOR CONVERSION

EXTRACTOR TO EJECTOR CONVERSION

EJECTOR TO FACTORY EXTRACTOR CONVERSION

SIMPLE EXTRACTOR IMPROVEMENT


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TRIGGER WORK

Ilion's Policy on Trigger Pull

TRIGGER IMPROVEMENT BY RAYNOR

TRIGGER IMPROVEMENT BY PERKLO

Trigger Job Video

Non-Invasive Trigger work

FRAME PIN TEMPLATE

HAMMER WEDGE BY Fred M

WOLFF EXTRA POWER HAMMER SPRINGS use single coil for modern frames

PARTS SCHEMATIC

ACTION JIG

BROKEN TRANSFER BAR

Model 1900-1908-1915 REPAIR NOTE

A note of caution on trigger jobs....I've done a bunch on my frames, most to 2-3lbs, my BC frame is now down to 21oz just from wear since I honed it, so this is another reason not to go too low, as the only cure for too light of trigger is to replace the trigger and/or hammer.

Tim


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SIGHTS

Front sight screw size has varied over the years, they range from 3-48, 3-56, 4-48 and 6-48, late production are 3-56.

3-56 Front sight plug screws are available from The Bolt Depot

Adding Sights to Accessory Barrels

PEEP AND FIRESIGHTS

LONG RANGE SIGHTS FOR THE BC and TARGET

SIGHTS AND SCOPE FOR A TOPPER

SIGHTS FOR SHOTGUNS WITHOUT DRILLING & TAPPING

SIGHT HEIGHT VIDEO

Determining Sight Height by Big Blue

BC/Target Front Sight Removal

WGRS Sight Removal

Williams Dovetail Riser

Marbles "Bullseye" Iron Sight on BC Carbine

SKINNER SIGHTS

NODAK SPUD SIGHT


 To remove a Williams or H&R barrel sight, the elevator screw has to be removed, don't loose the spring, the roll pin that the elevator hinges on also has to be punched out, the mounting screw is under the elevator.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SCOPE BASES

NOTE: 11/15/2012 It appears H&R has discontinued the scope rail and hammer extension as it was, both Brownell's and Midway list it as discontinued, but there are many other options available for the scope rail, the extension may be another matter tho, it's made by Uncle Mike's, is the same as used on the Ruger Blackhawk, but it's backordered everywhere that indicated availability.  It's available on ebay as well as another type, for a scope rail alternative, I recommend the Leupold Rifleman or Ironsighter.


You have  several chioices for scope bases, H&R Standard, Weaver #82 and the Leupold #56515, Warne steel M681M and machined steel tactical picatinny M981M. The Ultra rail(now discontinued) is an inch longer and has a lockable set screw in the overhang that helps support large scopes. Proper positioning of the set screw is .0015" off the barrel according to H&R CS. All current production NEF/H&R rifles are drilled and tapped for scope mounting. The H&R OEM rail w/hammer extension can be ordered direct from them or from Bud's, Brownell's, part #427-000-112 and TGS. Midway has the best price at $14 right now. The Hammer extension can be purchased separately for $8-$10, it's made by Uncle Mike's, part #2456, same as for the Ruger Blackhawk. Hammer Extension

http://www.grovtec.com/products_hammer.php

http://www.rrarms.com/gun-parts/h-r-new-england-scope-base-offset-hammer-spur.html

https://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=56515

top to bottom: H&R Standard rail, H&R Ultra rail and Weaver #82




Leupold top, H&R standard bottom


LEUPOLD RAIL #56515

Steel Warne Maxima Tactical, comes with T15 Torx head mounting screws


Warne M681M STEEL Tactical Picatinny base

Warne M981M STEEL Weaver style base

Pics of Warne weaver style base and Tactical rings

WARNE STEEL BASES including SILVER

EGW Aluminum Picatinny

IRONSIGHTER BASE

Wood's Trophy Mount, top, H&R bottom for comparison


Wood's Trophy Mount See-thru (Discontinued but may be found at Cabela's)







Short Base from Numrich


LOWER SCOPE RAIL AND SIGHTS



LOW PROFILE HAMMER MODS

LOW PROFILE HAMMER MODS part 2

Ebay/Numrich Hammer Extension

Knight KP1 and Traditions Hammer Extention





DRILLING FOR SCOPE MOUNT

BEDDING the SCOPE RAIL




BASE SCREW REMOVAL HELP

RINGS

Leupold PRW FAILURE!!!

Scope base screws are 6-48x", you can replace them with T-10 torx head screws from Brownell's, part number 080-924-468.

SCOUT MOUNT

Another SCOUT MOUNT

WEAVER #82 MODIFICATION

Ironsighter See-thru ring mounts

DedNutz Ringmount

Talley Steel Base or Lightweight Extra-high Ringmounts

SCOPE MOUNTING

CENTERING SCOPE ADJUSTMENT DIALS

45-70 SCOPE

Traditional Scope for BC or Target


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BORE GUIDES

CLEANING AND LAPPING

BORE POLISHING

BORE BREAK-IN, LAPPING AND POLISHING

CHAMBER POLISHING

*****************************************************************************************************
Handi Basics 101

1. Trigger pull must be all the way to the rear, don't release it at the break, or the transfer bar will drop out of place and inconsistent pin strikes will occur.  See Misfires here and here and Here. and here.

2. Close the action with some force, when new this is extremely important, the latch and latch shelf need to mate and that doesn't happen real fast, takes some open and close cycles for the parts to get used to each other.

3. Place the front rest just ahead of the trigger guard under the hinge, if you push the guard right into the front rest, it will be in the same position each time. On my rest, the rear sling stud is also against the rear rest.

4. Even after polishing the bore, it may take well over 60-80 rounds to start shooting well, my Ultra started shooting real well after 80 rounds after polishing.

5. If you want to find out if the forend is affecting accuracy, remove the forend and shoot it, just slip it back on to reload and remove it again to shoot. If the forend needs work, it will shoot good without it.

6. Take your time shooting, most Handis don't shoot the best groups when the barrel is hot, specially without some forend work.

7.  Always make sure the latch and latch shelf are dry, this is especially important if you clean at the range, it's real easy to get solvent on the latch shelf since it's directly below the chamber.

8.  Make sure the brass and chamber are clean and dry, any lube left on the brass will make em stick, oil or solvent in the chamber will do the same.

9.  With a barrel locked up good, the barrel release lever will likely be loose to the point of rattling if you shake the firearm, this is normal and not indicative of a problem. The release should be snug with no or little looseness with the action open, although there may not be much difference between the release lever position between open and locked up on some firearms.

*****************************************************************************************************

That Unsightly Bulge?
Or Does This Brass Make My Chamber Look Big?
Fred Zeglin



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BARREL FITTING

How often do used barrels fit without modification?



FOR THE NOVICE BY Quickdtoo

FOR THE MORE EXPERIENCED BY FRED M

UNDERLUG IMPROVEMENT

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ACCURIZING

5.56 Nato in 223 Rem


MILSURP AMMO WARNING

Best Factory Ammo

BY FRED M

BY FRED M Part 2

Shimming the Underlug to eliminate Lateral Movement

SUPERLIGHT BY PERKLO

Which Factory Ammo?

O-RING FLOATING and using a pressure point on THE FOREND

Forend screw stop

SYNTHETIC FOREND FLOATING

POP OPEN MEDICINE

Heavy Latch Springs

MISFIRES AND INCONSISTENT ACCURACY

TRANSFER BAR  AND MISFIRES

Fred's Firing Pin Improvement to Prevent Misfires

Misfire fix by cwlongshot

BEDDING THE SCOPE RAIL

Easy Crown Touch-up

Re-CROWNING THE MUZZLE

Cut and Crown Do-it-Yourself!

Another Cut and Crown DIY

Cut and Crown Video!!

Crown Touch Up with a Lee Trim Cutter!

RTV BEDDING THE FOREND by Mac11700

FOREND WORK By just bill

PILLAR BEDDING THE FOREND by LaOtto222

Forend Modification by LaOtto222 ***NEW***

FOREND FIT

FOREND SCREW TORQUE

FOREND MODIFICATION FOR BIPOD

OFF CENTER FOREND FIX

WORN FOREND HOLE FIX

FOREND SHIM

ADDING A SPACER OR REPAIRING A SYNTHETIC FOREND

Important Handi Accuracy Tip by McLernon

SWITCHING BARRELS AND ACCURACY


HANDLOADING FOR THE HANDI
 

BORE SLUGGING

Case Annealing

Custom-Fit Bullet Seating Stems by Marshall Stanton

Throating the .45-70




Adjustable Torque Screwdriver



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOW PROFILE HAMMER MODIFICATION

LOW PROFILE HAMMER PART 2

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CAUTION ON ADDING WEIGHT TO THE FOREND

STOCK BOLT PREVENTS COCKING

BC RECOIL PADS

RECOIL PAD INSTALL by cwlongshot

BUTT PLATE INSTEAD OF PAD

BRASS BUTT PLATE

HANDI/ULTRA RECOIL PADS

LIMBSAVER PAD TEMPLATES

MERCURY RECOIL REDUCER

PARDNER SHOTGUN STOCK WEIGHT

LIMBSAVER FOR SYNTHETIC STOCK

SHORTEN A SYNTHETIC STOCK

RESHAPING STOCKS

QUICK CHANGE FOREND SCREW

BREAK DOWN HANDI

HANDI-GRIP STOCK REVIEW by Mac11700

That Unsightly Bulge?
Or Does This Brass Make My Chamber Look Big?
Fred Zeglin
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: FAQ's and HELP
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2007, 11:38:28 am »
Why Buy an NEF/H&R?

In reply to the question asked by PhilTX....

PhilTX...

Welcome aboard..

First...let me say that you can get a Handi that is a sub moa shooter right out of the box...several folks have...myself included...The reason you see a lot of negativity here is a real simple reason...folks like to find answers to problems...folks like to correspond with like minded folks...and folks like to bellyache for attention..

You have made some false assumptions about all of these rifles.


You said;
Quote
So I decided to do some research on the rifle first. There is no better place than this forum to do that. Frankly I'm disappointed in what I have read.

Thanks to Graybeard...for allowing us here in the first place....without him...we wouldn't have had a home to go to after the shut down the original H&R forum...Yes...we have worked hard at making this one of the best places to discuss these rifles...and If you have indeed done your research here...you should already know that there are just as many folks happy with these rifles...as there are that aren't...Why haven't you noticed that...instead of just dwelling on all of the negative...Surely you could see that there are just a few calibers/models that have given folks fits...but you haven't...so instead...you really don't know anything about these rifles or their potential now do you......What you basically implying with your questions or doubts is that none of the Handi's are worth the time...because of what has been posted about them here...That don't hold water with me...I for one know how much good has been said about them...and how they have been rated against rifles costing thousands of dollars more...

Second...you said...
Quote
I've read your comments and questions and see that the barrels are not stress relieved, they don't ring when hit with a plastic hammer.
...Exactly where did you read this...? What company representative told you they weren't...

Third...you said...
Quote
The groups are poor to bad, and the gun doesn't shoot good until after 60-80 rounds are fired thru it.
...

I beg to differe with you...I have several that I have done nothing more than free float the barrel and can achieve sub 1/2" groups with factory ammo...Name 1 rifle that it's parent company will say theirs is any different for the same price...NO rifle company will honor this...Send any rifle costing under $1500...to any company...telling them you have only fired 80 rounds thru it with out proper cleaning or break in...and see what they tell you...... I guarantee if you do send it in..they will fire way over that...and send it back to you with a test target proving nothing is wrong with it...Call Sako...Call Weatherby...Call Kimber...ask them...I know...I have talked to them...and also  Winchester...and Remington...and Ruger...and Browning...I've been doing this for way longer than you can imagine...and I deal with these companies (with the exception of SAKO) on a regular basis...


Fourth..
Quote
I've read advice given to check the crown to see if there are any burrs or chips in the barrel, because the rifle is shooting such bad groups.
...Yes...this is standard advise...for any rifle...not just the Handi's...but also on rifles cost THOUSANDS...What's you point...? Are you not aware of this...hmmm?

Fifth...
Quote
They have heavy triggers that apparently cannot be adjusted or reduced by just any good gunsmith.
...This is ludicrous at best...Sure...you may get a heavy trigger from the factory many guns costing much much more are the same way...Where have you been that you don't know this?... Yes...it isn't adjustable...THEY NEVER HAVE BEEN...and you saying you researched these rifles...? BUT...the bit about not being able to be reduced by a good smith...come on...if you knew anything about how a trigger works and what a gunsmith does...you should know they can be...Who's kidding who here...?

Sixth...
Quote
So many owners are customizing the gun, so they're not happy with it the way it comes from the factory
...Again...so-what...do you honestly believe we are the only group of rifle owners that are into customizing our firearms?...and to equate that that we aren't happy with them as they come from the factory as something bad is assine...Apparently you really don't know anything about firearms...nor have you ever open most any gun magazine and not seen all of the parts available to trick out just about any gun made...Sheee's... So...to you...there must be something wrong with the rifle because of us wanting something different than what they are offering us...right...

Seventh..
Quote
Forearms that might need adjustment. Special time consuming cleaning of the bore before or while breaking the rifle in.
...See...this proves you really don't know anything about rifles...The forearms on these rifles is no different than any other rifle unless your talking a custom rig costing much much more...and as to special cleaning...if you don't understand the principle about why any one who cares about the rifles bore & proper conditioning...well...this speaks volumes about your self to me...and I assure you to many others here as well...

Eighth...
Quote
.The 243 and 22-250 appear to be a total disaster in the NEF
...again...you really haven't researched these calibers completely here...if you had...you would see that many of these are excellent shooters...just not up to some bolt gun standards on the 22-250...and only in the super lights on the 243's...

Ninth...
Quote
With so many things that are obviously wrong with this rifle from the factory, according to what you have written, the quality control and pure quality of the rifle is pretty bad. Has anyone out there bought this rifle, taken it to the range and had "great" groups right out of the box, purchased new barrels with the same results, and without all of the adjusting, cleaning, removing burrs, and all the other things that should be done at the NEF factory before this rifle is ever sold?
...Do you honestly believe that every rifle...(well into the millions ) have all of these problems that rifles from other companies don't share the same traits...by just what is posted here?

Tenth...
Quote
I don't believe it's the gun owners responsibility to repair or enable a brand new gun or a brand new barrel before it can shoot well. It's the sellers responsibility
...I see...so you want a guarantee...Sorry...you ain't going to get one from NEF ...nor will you get one from CVA...nor will you get one from T/C...nor will you get one from Ruger...that you will like...So...that leaves you with bolt guns...Oh...and good luck with the companies that do indeed give guarantee's...Been there...Done that...several times...you probably won't be happy with them either...and you most likely will be real PO'd if you get a lemon from them after spending as much as you did...

Eleventh...
Quote
To me, after reading your comments, they're not meeting their part of the bargain. It sounds like they just sell a product and you the buyer does the repairs.
....BS...what part of their warranty are they not honoring...? Sure we do a-lot of our own repairs...but there are countless thousands who don't touch them...ever...Again...you basing this assine assumption on what you have misinterpreted here...

Twelfth
Quote
But honestly, after wanting one so much, then researching the gun and reading what you the users say about it, I'm not sure. Please tell me something good about this little rifle. I just want to know why you buy this rifle after reading all that is apparently wrong with them. You have to admit, if you'll read the comments, questions, complaints and concerns on this rifle, on this forum, you'll understand my concern before I purchase, and possibly waste my money on one.
...BS...this is just selective reading on your part...Why do I know...because you don't have to go back very far to see all of the good talked about them...and your just reading and emphasizing  the problems...nothing more...

Thirteenth...
Quote
I'm not stirring the pot. I just want to know if NEF has made any good rifles, not just rifles with the problems so many of you write about
...I beg to differ with you...namely because if you truly had done your research...you would see most of the issues are minor...and the major issues are dealt with quickly...in just about every case...

Fourteenth...
Quote
Buyers shouldn't have to repair their new guns. Buyers shouldn't have so many complaints on what should be controlled by their quality control before the gun ever leaves the factory.  Buyers should be able to take the gun out of the box and it should shoot right. You on this forum are the buyers, and after reading your forum, it seems that you just accept all the many problems that the factory seems so unconcerned about, like it's all part of the deal. Why?
Simple...because most of us don't have problems with these rifles...and we treat them all the same...We who actually know about rifles already know that to achieve the absolute best accuracy from any massed produced gun will take some effort on our part...and it is very apparent you have absolutely no clue to rifles in general...otherwise you wouldn't be making these kinds of statements...no matter how strongly you come back later and say how many rifles you own...and try to defend this very first post of yours...Go to any forum any where...every manufacturer has q/c problems...it is a fact of life...sure...so have a good track record...but even the best rifles available have issues with them...and most folks won't moan and groan about putting out a little elbow grease on a $275 dollar rifle to get sub moa performance out of it...which many of them do...even though many folks can't shoot them as well as they are capable...Certain allowances have to be given because of the design of the rifle itself as compared to other makes...If you really had taken the time to research this rifle...you would understand this...Bedding a rifle is a common practice...with all types...same as floating the barrel...same as tuning the trigger...same as hand loading for perfection...Why is it your trying to act like the Handi is any different...If you have been at this any length of time...you would know the answers...

Fifteenth...
Quote
Thanks for listening, and sorry if I offended any owners, that's not my intent, but the NEF gun company should be offended and they should take notice. Their product does not get good reviews from you the buyer, yet you keep buying what they have to sell, and NEF doesn't appear to be doing much according to what you write, to reduce your complaints and correct their products problems. So why should I buy this gun?
...Again...more BS...their product does get good reviews from many of us...and others from around the world...and reading what has been posted here would tell this fact...if you really had bothered to read all of the good as well...not just the bad...A common sense approach is all you really need...as with any other firearm purchase...but your pretense here shows different reasoning I think...

Sixteenth ...
Quote
Some of you will take this all wrong and that's OK
...Well at least I'm glad you said this...cause that's about the only real sensible thing I believe you have said...Namely because your questions makes no sense to any one that knows about rifles in the first place...and second...you should know what a gunsmith can do...and third you should have a little knowledge if you really know anything about rifles about checking the barrel for obstructions and nicks on the crown...since you made this rebuttal post
Quote
I've owned alot of guns that I've tweaked, worked on, and repaired so you really don't have a clue about me being the type to own a Handi or not. I've probably owned and own now, as many and maybe more guns than alot of  people out there.
...like I said...who's kidding who...hmmm?

Let me say this...before you think I am needlessly slamming you...because I not really...I think you have some valid concerns...and I truly hope you go back and read what most of are really saying about these rifles...None of us are saying they are perfect...because they aren't...Yes...they do have some peculiarities...and some quality control issues...but this in NORMAL...for the low cost of the rifle...Many of us here do indeed love to tinker with them...but we are no different than the multitude of any others with all makes of rifles...We spend countless hours making them into more than just what the factory offers us...Why...because we can and like to make them better...just as any other hobbyist will do with something they like...Does every body do this...NO...they don't...many are happy with them straight from the box...Your acting like you shouldn't have to do anything to tweak any rifle...If this is the case because you haven't had too...then you are extremely fortunate...but you have to know your real lucky...and accept this fact....because the vast majority of rifle owners who are striving to have a massed produced rifle be the best...know damn full well they are going to have to invest some effort & time to make it as they want it to be...regardless of the manufacturer...

You can choose this path...but...if your expecting this rifle to be perfect...you most likely will be disappointed...and for the cost of a Handi...you won't always get a perfect one...Name me 1 rifle for this cost that you will...you can't...because there aren't any...period...We have made many suggestions to them over the years...and they have followed some of our suggestions and improved a few things on them...Can they do more...sure...Are they perfect...Nope...they aren't...but again...perfection comes at a steep cost...and that isn't what the Handi Rifle is about...It is about simplicity...It is about value...It is about being the best for what it cost...NEF has done an admirable job with them...Why expect much more for the same price...We help those here that what to have something better than what they get from the factory...and to help those who have correctable problems...that choose to take care of it themselves...it's part of learning...for those who wish to learn...and to be self sufficient...That's what we do here...If your not happy with having to expend some effort..then I can answer your question...about wither you should buy one...and that answer is a qualified no...you shouldn't...If on the other hand...you actually take the time...and really read how simple these rifles are to get to shoot good...and want to give it a go...then I say Yes...by all means give them a try...because they will surprise you...especially if you shoot them a while...Even those who have cursed them...still come here and talk about them...because they are addicting...and deep down they like the way they feel and balance in their hands...and how the do in the field...on all types of game around the world...As for some of the posting here with all of the bad things being said...well...that is the internet for you...and you will find some folks complaining just to here themselves complain...and to start an argument...The main difference here is our members...most of us know rifles...and know them well...We also know perfection comes at a cost...and the decision has to be made if we want to invest to attain it...Sometimes we are successful...other times we aren't...but...this is with any endeavor we take in life...


That choice is yours...

Mac

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,129400.msg1098473394.html#msg1098473394

 


"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline quickdtoo

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"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: FAQ's and HELP ****PLEASE READ ME!!!****
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2008, 11:06:18 am »
PLEASE USE CONTROL F or F3 TO SEARCH THE PAGE

Hit F3 or hold down the ctrl key and hit f, a search window will open, type the word you're looking for and hit enter, keep hitting next until you find what you're looking for.

Command f for you Apple users.
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain