Author Topic: confusion-308 vs 45-70  (Read 6639 times)

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Offline montveil

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confusion-308 vs 45-70
« on: February 03, 2011, 07:49:02 am »
I continually read of the great stopping powers of the 45-70
Having looked up the ballistics it seems that the 45-70 has less stopping power than the 308

308      180 grain Nosler partition  100 yds 2388 ft/sec  100 yds 2641 ft #

45-70   300 grain                           100 yds 1610 ft/sec   100 yds 1728 ft #

My muzzle loader is equal to the 45-70

Is the difference similar to the 9mm  light and fast vs the 45ACP= Big slug moving slowly with a large cross section??
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Offline yukondog

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 08:49:43 am »
I would think that with a larger cross sec. the more tissue dam. would be done but at 100 yrds. dead is dead.
an unloaded wepon is equal to the same mass and volume as a rock.

Offline zackyholdem

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 09:04:45 am »
when calculating ft lbs of energy the only things taken into account are projectile weight and speed, this lead to people misinterpreting the data

for example a 12 ga 1oz lead slug at 1600 fts has around 2800ftlbs of energy however a 10 gauge 1.75 oz load slug at 1300fps has around 2700ftlbs of energy

while the 12 gauge slug has more energy, the 10 gauge slug is superior in penetration due to its increased weight.

take a look at the TAYLOR KO INDEX, it takes into account speed, weight and bullet diameter into account and spits out calculations that are real world friendly and allows you to accurately compare the .308 and 45-70
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Offline Shu

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 09:11:14 am »
Paper ballistics are good for comparisons but don't tell the whole story. Stopping power is partially due to bullet diameter. The bigger the wound channel the better. Elephants have been killed with bigger and lessor calibers yes. You said stopping power so it will go to the bigger diameter bullet.

A 22 250 has similar energy to a 45 70 due to its velocity. The 45 70 will out penetrate a 22 250 by feet due to its big heavy slow moving bullet.

Nothing wrong with a 308 or a 45 70, 2 great rounds.

A 45 70 is not equal to you muzzle loader if and only if you have  a modern 45-70 that allows you to use higher pressure loads. Again paper ballistics not telling the full story.

Bullet diameter, bullet construction,weight and velocity all  are major players in stopping power.

To me over .375 caliber is a stopping rifle, under that you have some great rifles but less stopping power. Not to be confused with killing power.

9mm vs 45 well there is always much debate, I have never had any 45 fans agree to let me shoot them with my 9mm then they can shoot me with thier 45. Yep I own both and love both.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 09:18:47 am »
+1 on that.
The old ME calc is one way to compare, but it disregards the frontal area of the projectile.; a stilletto will kill you and so will a brick.
Small, high speed sporting projectiles should expand (to become more like a 'brick') to work (with certain, limited exceptions).
I like the idea of 'my big bullet doesnt even need to expand, and if it does, so much the better'.
But if you need a flatter shooting caliber than the old Gov'mint round you gotta go smallbore.
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Offline cjrjck

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2011, 09:20:33 am »
There is a lot more to terminal ballistics and stopping power than ft/pounds of energy. If the target is dangerous game, I would most certainly prefer a properly loaded 45-70 over a .308 Winchester. Your example is not a fair one to the 45-70. A .308 with a 180 grain Nosler Partition would be a good choice for that caliber for dangerous game while a 300 grain bullet for a 45-70 may not be. Most are lightly constructed (not all). I would prefer a hard cast bullet of 350 grains or more or a heavily constructed jacketed bullet of 350 grains or more.

Offline Freightman

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2011, 09:27:53 am »
Where are you getting your load information? for a modern rifle that is a very light load for a 300gr bullet. My Lee Manuel says for a starting load it is 1900fps and for the top load it is 2187fps which gives you around 3200fpe I have loads with a 405gr bullet that I ran over the chronograph at 2100fps in my Shiloh which is around 3900fpe, You are looking at the Trap Door loads which are very light. I have a load that uses a 500gr bullet that goes over 4000#FPE. Now I wouldn't do this with a weak rifle or an old rifle but I do it all the time with my Shiloh and I had a Buffalo Classic that could handle the loads but I could not..
These are published loads not what I made up, as I like to use very light loads to punch holes in paper but for hunting this is what I would use not a 300gr but 405 or 500gr.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2011, 09:46:23 am »
Good advice, and I like the idea of match the bullet to the game (or the biggest game you may encounter). After that the gun is just a launch platform.
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Offline Shu

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2011, 09:51:50 am »
Killing power does not equal stopping power.
Something can be dead and not know it while it turns you into a big greasy spot.
Stopping power makes it want to be dead without turning you into a greasy spot.

Online quickdtoo

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2011, 10:04:00 am »
Here's a calculator that will compare 2 rounds showing the relative killing potential in Energy, Momentum and Taylor KO.

Tim

http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp
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Offline montveil

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2011, 11:31:02 am »
My confusion probably resulted from using the Federal ammo info and not handloads
When I shoot my  50 cal ML with 300 grain bullets and a MV of ~1650 it seems to equal the 45-70 factory load.
I can see why the 45-70 would be a superior caliber using handloads.
The larger cross section really makes a difference.
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Offline Freightman

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2011, 11:48:09 am »
With the calculator Quick gave us even the factory ammo has a KO factor of 32 and the 308 19.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2011, 01:52:50 pm »
Oh, Quick! That is really cool.......Thanx!
I see I have to launch a 45-70/500gr. @ 2200fps to equal a 1oz. Foster 12ga. slug @1600 for KO.
Will the deer or hog know the difference, noooo, BUT I WILL!!!
Kudos to my grandson:
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Continental Color Guard
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Online quickdtoo

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2011, 02:34:09 pm »
You're welcome!  ;) But you're comparing muzzle velocities, in reality, the 500gr Hornady Interbond bullet with a MV of 1813fps would be running 1511fps at 100yds, the 1oz slug starting out at 1610fps would be running just 1139fps at 100yds, they both have a KO of 51 at 100yds. You'd have to seat the bullet real long in a 45-70 to make room for enough powder to do achieve that velocity in a 24" barrel, 2.925" according to Hornady.

Tim

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/slug.aspx?id=126
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Offline shot1

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2011, 04:11:34 pm »
All that stuff about knock down power is just a bunch of bunk when it comes to shooting game. I have killed well over 200 head of big game and seen many more taken and I have never seen a single one KNOCKED DOWN by bullet energy alone. Game goes down by interrupting things that make them live. The more these things are interrupted the quicker they die. The quick interruption to the central nervous system will put your game down on the spot. A bullet that really comes apart after getting into the vitals usually disrupts them greatly and the animal usually dies quickly. Hitting front shoulder bones usually sends a shock to the central nervous system along with quick disruption of vitals.

If you still believe in KNOCK DOWN POWER do this little experiment. Take a 50 lb sack of sand and sit it up on an elevated flat surface and shoot it with your a 308 or a 45-70 and see if it knocks it off the platform.  It will not do it so there goes the knock down power theory out the window.  If you shoot the same sack of sand with an arrow from a hunting bow it usually will go through it because it cuts it's way through. 

Offline Shu

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2011, 04:36:01 pm »
The OP asked about stopping power. Which is different than killing or knock down.
Everyone agrees a projectile must hit the vitals and cause as much damage as possible.

Would you face a charging 200lb hog with a 22lr? I wouldn't, but I know I could kill him with it. Would I face the same animal with a 308 or 45-70 . Yes and I wouldn't cringe about it.  This is the difference between killing power and stopping power.

Your experiment does have some merit, would you consider a bigger bag with something to simulate bone? No it still won't knock it off the table but the bigger slower bullet will go deeper. As you said penetrate deep enough to get to vitals and smash bones.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2011, 04:59:18 pm »
I think I've been 'reading' this same argument for about 40yrs.  :o, ::).
Kudos to my grandson:
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Offline Flynmoose

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2011, 08:41:13 pm »
Hopefully we can argue about it for another forty years!!
FM
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Offline SlimPigguns

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2011, 05:57:53 am »
A lot of years ago, I was at a range shooting next to  a bloke with a .450 Martini Henry. He set up 2 round wooden blocks about 14 or 15 inches in diameter and about 2 feet long on top of each other at 25 yards. He shot the block with a .303 SMLE and the block shook a little. He then shot it with the .450  and the block toppled over and rolled 3 feet.
Pete
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Offline Shu

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Re: confusion-308 vs 45-70
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2011, 08:05:43 am »
The sand experiment Vs. the wood experiment. Both experiments are valid in there own.
Combine them and you get a better experiment. Sand is not really a good medium nor is the block of wood. As stated after 200 game animals taken none were blown of there feet, very believeable. Yet sometimes animals will jump when hit or do a flip. That is central nerve system damage.

As everyone knows a large animal weighing more than a thousand pounds needs a bigger bullet (discounting beef stock killed by a butcher) Smaller animals you can use smaller bullets. Match the caliber with what you are shooting and you are good to go.

Back to the OP question of stopping power, which has more? They look the very similar.
Paper ballistics only tell part of the story, as does sand or wood blocks. No one disagrees about bullet placement and bullet construction.

Every once in awhile you run across an animal that doesn't know it is dead for about 1 minute, I think the question is can you shout instructions on how to pull that animal off your backside in that 1 minute?