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My new Southern MI deer gun (s)

4K views 13 replies 5 participants last post by  moleman 
#1 ·
Finished up another 44x1.8" on an ar10/LR308 type action recently and finally got a chance to shoot it. Made the reamer, headspace gauges, lower from an 80%, barrel from a blank, and cases from 30-06. Don't have a chronograph but QL is guestimating 2418 fps for a 225gr FTX and 41gr LilGun out of the 16.5" barrel. Shot great, and recoil wasn't as near as sharp as my Mauser in this round or my 444 Marlin levergun. Almost done with an ar15 upper that is basically a rimless 445SM based off of 30-06 cases also. Made the reamer, headspace gauges, barrel from a SS blank, and cases. Hope to get it sighted in next weekend.
 

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#2 ·
Moleman,

Those sound like some great builds. My 44x1.8 build on a 700 action is ready for season as well. Load I'll be hunting with is 35.6gr of H4227 at 2100fps under the 265gr FTX. COAL is 2.450.

H4198 gave good accuracy but I was heavily compressing loads before I broke 2000fps. Final load put 3 shots into 0.75" and 5 into 1.7", at 1950fps. Also 2.450 COAL.

Don't know if your AR would cycle it, but I'm playing with the 225gr FTX and 12gr of Titegroup, for 14-1500 fps. Same seater position as my 265's puts COAL at 2.350. Same speed my BIL gets out of his revolver and 44 magnum loads, but feels like a big 22lr from the rifle, and quiet. Saving this load for future use for <100yd stands, and new hunters.

Any more load data you'd care to share with LilGun (or 296/110) would be greatly appreciated. I think its great to know what others are doing when I start looking for more speed and/or accuracy for next year.

Thanks,
Terry
 
#3 ·
Haven't tried W296 yet but will at some point. So far just IMR4198, IMR4227, and lilgun. Worked up to 33.0gr IMR4227 and a 265gr FTX last year in the 1891 mauser at 2.425" COL in it. Was trying to make sure my son got a deer last year so I passed on everything except 30pt bucks (didn't see any) until he got a doe with a 357AR (357Max-rimless) I'd built for him. Didn't see any deer closer than 200yds after that and hadn't shot the open sight mauser past 100yds so didn't take any shots. I think I'll lean towards IMR4198 and Reloader 7 for the mauser to keep the pressure down and also have a near/full case. Worked up the 225FTX load at 2.350 COL from 38.0gr lilgun (44kpsi, 2272FPS) 41.0gr lilgun (56Kpsi, 2418FPS). 40.0gr lilgun was only about 50fps slower at 2370 fps at 52Kpsi v/s 2418 fps and 56k psi for 41.0gr lilgun. They both shot the same and looking at the ballistic calculator out to 200yds they're very close so I'll likely just run 40gr LilGun. I was getting bullets cutting the same hole if I did my part with both of those loads so I'm happy with the accuracy which is something I was curious about. Best I can get out of the mauser is about 2-3" but the sights are getting hard to see well. Finally gave in and said yes to bifocals so we'll see if that helps. If not I'll scope the Mauser also.
I went back and forth with either working up W296 or LilGun first, but went with lilgun. Using the same 2.350" COL for the 225FTX I was looking at working up from 40gr W296 89.3% load density at 48Kpsi and 2347 fps. To no more than 42.0gr W296 93.8% load density, 56kpsi, 2454 fps. Then more likely than not just end up backing down to wherever it shot best at. The way I'm forming the brass I end up with 56.8Gr water capacity and I set the freebore longer on my reamers so you can seat the bullet out further.
The light loads likely wouldn't cycle the ar10, but they'd work just fine in the mauser. The recoil on the few test rounds I've made for the 44x1.6 also seemed to not kick much. QL showed the load at 1800fps out of the 14.5" (with welded on flash hider to bring it up to 16.5") was a mild 31Kpsi with IMR4227. I hope once it's done it shoots well as it is light and handy. I was having trouble with the case necks on the 1.6" ending up too thick by .002". Figured out last night just to run the top 3/4" through a 44mag carbide die then ream them. Ended up right where they needed to be. I might end up buying another 444 marlin die and cut it down specifically for the 1.6 & 1.8" case length or just make a die specifically for these shorty cases. Here's the mauser. $100 sporter rifle that I made an octagon barrel and front sight, sling base for. The barrel blank ended up being more than the rifle cost.
 

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#5 ·
Moleman,

Really appreciate the data. I'll try to add more here next year when i get back to working up new things.

Lloyd,

Here's my reasoning. It's not ironclad, but makes sense to me:

-44cal is about the max caliber to get any body taper on the 30-06 or 308 bolt face.
-30-06 brass for a parent means never running out or having a hard time finding parent material.
-0.473" bolt face means just about anything in the 308 or mauser family is a good donor for the rebore.
-44cal was the max that would be allowed for a rebore in the standard sporter weight rifles barrels with a muzzle OD of .650. 45 would thin them up too much
-JES Rebore and Oregunsmithing only do 45cal in .458 diameter. The bushmaster needs .452, so rebarreling would be the only option, which without the tools to do it myself is quite a bit more expensive than the $250 it took to turn a 243 into a 44.

As far as shooting goes, I'm not a recoil junky. 44cal inherently reduces bullet weight for similar BC's. I believe to get the same BC as the 265gr FTX in 44, a 45 would be pushing 300gr or more. I don't have any experience with the 50, but can't imagine pushing one of those huge things fast enough to shoot as flat as mine.

All that to say, its been a fun project that I've really enjoyed. For a guy that just wants to buy a rifle, one of those 450 bushmaster Ruger Americans the guy in badaxe is distributing would be great.

Terry
 
#6 ·
Many of my reasons are the same as those voiced by terryrudd. Additionally I reload everything I shoot except 22lr, (most) shotgun and self defense rounds. Already reloaded for 44mag and 444 marlin and figured I'd just stick with 44. Otherwise they would likely be in 450BM and 45 Raptor. This will never compete with the popularity and availability of the bushmaster. Any of them are overkill for deer, but what's wrong with that? I had thought about using bushmaster brass and necking it down in a custom die to end up with more case volume . What swayed me was the availability of range pick up 30-06 or similar .473" case head brass and the ability to match 444 marlin loads. It was interesting to see that the 44x1.8 loads don't drop down to 44 mag level until they reach about 200yds. Having several lathes and mills in the barn lets me make whatever I want for material cost. The 44x1.6 barrel has a $12 barrel extension and used a $42 barrel blank, the piston kit or muzzle brake on that upper cost more. The 44x1.8 mauser and ar10 both used a $100 Green Mountain barrel blank and the AR10 has a $50 Bat Machine barrel extension on it. If down the road I want to change caliber on either it will only cost me time, a barrel blank and less than a foot of O1 drill rod to make a new reamer and gauges.

terryrudd, sounds good. Good luck to everyone this season and when I get a chance to try out the W296 I'll post up the results. I usually try to keep a few pounds of W296 and IMR4227 on hand for the 44mags, but this was the first time I've tried LilGun and so far I like it.
 
#8 ·
the brass thing makes a lot of sense. Its sometimes tough to find Beowulf brass and its expensive. Ive got a life time supply right now so its no longer a problem but it would still be nice to once in a while be able to let fly and not pick up brass! Recoil isn't a concern for me and the fact the beo is capable of shooting a heavier bullet for really big game is an advantage to me. My wife took a 1600lb Asian water buffalo with mine and ive taken a couple cow bison. No doubt your gun could have done it too but I like the fact I can load a 400 grain lfn in the beo. As to Molemans arguments I can see it for some but I am already set up to load it, have many molds to cast bullets for it so its no harder then loading 44s and even if you don't cast renieer makes bullets for it that ive used successfully on deer and pigs. Plus I don't have to lug around a 12lb ar10!! I did that one deer season and that was plenty enough for me.
terryrudd said:
Moleman,

Really appreciate the data. I'll try to add more here next year when i get back to working up new things.

Lloyd,

Here's my reasoning. It's not ironclad, but makes sense to me:

-44cal is about the max caliber to get any body taper on the 30-06 or 308 bolt face.
-30-06 brass for a parent means never running out or having a hard time finding parent material.
-0.473" bolt face means just about anything in the 308 or mauser family is a good donor for the rebore.
-44cal was the max that would be allowed for a rebore in the standard sporter weight rifles barrels with a muzzle OD of .650. 45 would thin them up too much
-JES Rebore and Oregunsmithing only do 45cal in .458 diameter. The bushmaster needs .452, so rebarreling would be the only option, which without the tools to do it myself is quite a bit more expensive than the $250 it took to turn a 243 into a 44.

As far as shooting goes, I'm not a recoil junky. 44cal inherently reduces bullet weight for similar BC's. I believe to get the same BC as the 265gr FTX in 44, a 45 would be pushing 300gr or more. I don't have any experience with the 50, but can't imagine pushing one of those huge things fast enough to shoot as flat as mine.

All that to say, its been a fun project that I've really enjoyed. For a guy that just wants to buy a rifle, one of those 450 bushmaster Ruger Americans the guy in badaxe is distributing would be great.

Terry
 
#9 ·
The ar10 ended up being 9# 6oz with the scope and mag as shown in the pic. Likely could reprofile the barrels to take a few more ounces off each, but they're not bad to carry. Especially since it's just from the truck to the stand and back. The ar15 came in at 8#12oz with scope and mag as in the pic. The ar15 has a piston system on it that weights quite a bit compared to a gas tube and low profile gas block which brings the weight up on it. It also has an all metal stock on it which weighs more. I've been thinking about putting a plastic one on it to reduce the weight, gain a little length of the buttpad and get rid of the rattle the metal stock makes. Made 66 more 44x1.6" cases today out of range pick up 30-06 Winchester Brass. Made 20 444 x 1.8" to see if they'll shoot well or not out of my marlin.
 
#10 ·
Had another range day and shot the ar15 in 44x1.6" (like a 445 Super mag with more case taper) at paper for the first time. Most groups were between .75" to .8" off of the bench. I was hoping for more bullets cutting the same hole like I got with the ar10, but anything under an inch is great. Then shot the 444 Marlin with shortened 1.8" long cases and was surprised hon how much it dropped from standard 444 loads. They shot ok though. Sighted in a slug gun while we were at it and made sure my son's 357AR (357Max-rimless) was still shooting well. He started off not shooting as well as normally until he said he was having trouble seeing the sights and I noticed he'd put a cheek riser I'd got for my AR10 on his rifle. No wonder he was having issues seeing the sights. Took it off and he was back to his normal shooting self again. He had fun making the 6" steel plates at 150yds swing.
 
#11 ·
Got a chance today to shoot some loads over a Magneto Speed chronograph. These aren't max loads, just accurate loads I loaded last fall. For the AR10/LR308 44BGM (44x1.8") 225gr FTX bullet over 40.0gr LilGun averaged 2407 FPS with a Quick Load guestimate of 2370 fps at 51,994 PSI . Next up the AR15 44BGML (44x1.6") 240gr XTP over 31.0GR IMR4227 averaged 1809 fps with a QL guesstimate of 1794 fps at 31,743 PSI. It was nice to see the actual speeds a little higher than the QL estimate and that the QL estimate was very close especially since these are wildcat cartridges.
 
#12 ·
Finally got a chance to get a deer with the 44x1.8" AR10. Angling away heart shot from the right hip to left upper arm area. 265gr FTX at 2150fps stopped under the skin on the far side with about 36" of penetration. Didn't hit any bones and the buck dropped pretty quick. The recovered 265FTX weighed 212.2gr and had an average dia of about .6" if you discount the large flap on one side.
 

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#13 ·
Without getting into reload data etc, Accurate 5744 is another powder that may be worth looking at and it seems to have decent availability. Similar to 296/110/LilGun in many ways. I've been using it in place of Lil Gun with excellent accuracy and vel.
Muddy
 
#14 ·
Hi muddyboots, I have Accurate 5744 but haven't tried it yet. Just going by QuickLoad it looks close to W296. The last load I worked up for the 44x1.8" was a 265gr FN-innerlock with W296 at 2300 fps out of the 16" barreled AR10 and recently made AR15 (uses the round lugged high pressure .473" bolt and extension). Will likely do some more load development this summer with 5744. Also been working on a 38special/ 357Magnum/ 357Maximum Marlin 336. Got the carrier modified so that it fed all three into a dummy barrel and am currently working on the chamber reamer for it. It will also be a good candidate for 5744. Tracked down the fancy rounded lug .473" bolt and extension right after deer season ended this past winter. Liked carrying the weight of the 44x1.6" (like a rimless 445SM) ar15 but liked the power of the 44x1.8" round in the heavier AR10. Got the best of both worlds now. The Marlin should be fun to hunt with using 357Max and also a cheap plinker with 38's/357mags. Here's a pic of it with some of the 357max dummy rounds used to test cycling. There is actually a nickle 357 Magnum dummy round with an XTP that has fed into the carrier. Going to make an octagon barrel for it.
 

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