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AtlLaw
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« on: July 10, 2009, 08:51:44 PM »

Still getting ready to get into this BP revolver shooting thing... even though my revolver is on back order.   Embarrassed

After the subject of lube was discussed in another thread I was going to start with a 50/50 mix of beeswax and Crisco for lube.  I've got the beeswax!   Grin  But no tallow.   Sad  So I started thinking about tallow.  I wondered about the preference for mutton tallow.   Undecided   Then I wondered why mutton tallow would be any better then beef (pork) tallow (lard).   Undecided  So then I figured I'd make some beef tallow and try it...  Undecided  Then I figured why go to the effort when Crisco is so readily available...  Roll Eyes

So, can anybody tell me why mutton tallow would be any better then beef tallow or lard; and
Is tallow any better then Crisco?

BTW, when that question is resolved I think I'll compare the best 50/50 mixture to that mixture with an equal part of paraffin added!   Grin  Unless someone has already done that of course!   Wink
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2009, 06:27:19 AM »

Mutton won't get rancid like beef, or pork will. I want to try to make Gatofeos lube recipe. It's in the sticky at the top of the forum.
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2009, 06:40:54 AM »

Mutton won't get rancid like beef, or pork will.

No kidding!   Shocked  I wonder how that is?   Undecided  I can sure see where it would be a benefit though!   Grin

Quote
I want to try to make Gatofeos lube recipe. It's in the sticky at the top of the forum.

Me to!  That's why I added the quip about the paraffin!   Cheesy  But I wanted to try the 50/50 first so I have a point of comparison. 
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2009, 10:36:00 AM »

I have a plastic jar of mutton tallow I got from Dixie Gunworks many years ago and it still looks like it did when I bought it, it's cheap too. But mutton is much softer than beef or deer tallow, you couldn't make a candle from mutton tallow. Beef tallow was a standard ingredient in all of the old time BP cartridge bullet lubes, I've never seen mutton tallow or lard mentioned in that respect. Mutton tallow and pork lard are much softer than tallow from beef or deer and you might have to consider that in regard to the proportions to mix with bee's wax. Crisco is of course a vegetable oil and I don't know how that will mix with bee's wax. Now that we're getting into the hot weather I think you'd not want a very soft lube. I've used Crisco alone in cool weather but on a warm day it becomes liquid, but then so does Bore Butter.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 10:38:40 AM by coyotejoe » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2009, 11:02:50 AM »

AtlLaw,
What type and brand of revolver did you order?
Be interesting to see how your concoction of Crisco and beeswax performs!
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2009, 11:16:09 AM »

I accidently made some beef tallow the other day. I had bought a whole ribeye on sale and they sliced it. When I got home and enwrapped it I had almost as much fat and bone as meat! Before feeding the scraps to my buddies's three legged hound, I put it in the microwave on power level three until it was cooked.
  A by product was about a quart of beef tallow. Me and my friend were grilling some cubed deer steaks and he decided to put some of the beef tallow on one of the steaks to see how it would taste. It was great! we did all the rest that way.
  My understanding is that it will go rank pretty fast os will likely only get to use it that once.
  I have some mutton tallow that I bought from Dixie Gun Works that I use for my lube.
                                Beerbelly
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2009, 08:03:04 PM »

I have a plastic jar of mutton tallow I got from Dixie Gunworks many years ago and it still looks like it did when I bought it,

If it keeps that well I might just have to get some and be done with it.   Undecided  But then Crisco keeps well also.

Quote
I've used Crisco alone in cool weather but on a warm day it becomes liquid, but then so does Bore Butter.

I've used Bore Butter for years and it doesn't take much heat for it to get runny.   Sad  I think that's the main problem I want to avoid.  But then. maybe mixing it with b'wax will keep it solid.  'course I'm just speculating... maybe if I got off my dead butt and mixed some up I'd have a better idea!   Wink
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2009, 08:06:25 PM »

What type and brand of revolver did you order?

A Uberti 1861 Navy.  But it's on back order and they keep backing up the in stock date!   Sad  I'm thinking of asking Midway to send me an "in stock" 1851 Navy if they'll do it for the same price!   Grin
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2009, 08:12:20 PM »

I had bought a whole ribeye on sale and they sliced it. When I got home and enwrapped it I had almost as much fat and bone as meat!

Been there done that!   Cheesy  I did feed the scraps to my dogs though...  Embarrassed

Quote
I have some mutton tallow that I bought from Dixie Gun Works that I use for my lube.

I guess that's the answer.   Undecided  I'll just try Crisco, then Mutton tallow, then mutton tallow and paraffin.  All mixed with b'wax of course!   Grin
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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 04:26:33 PM »

okay let me try this,might not come up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeswax
cool it opened...Read the Physical characterisitics section & Historical Use   (melts at 144 to 147 degrees)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallow
click on the word lard after you read about tallow
I called my Great Uncle after reading this thread,an asked what was used back in the day.He said beeswax,lard or tallow,and he couldn't rember if or what type oil(what can I say,the mans old as dirt an his memory is going)
But I'd be willing to bet if a oil was used it would have been a common one of the period,best guess cottonseed or Linseed oil,or maybe Tung nut?Who knows whaling was pretty heavey and common in that period also
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 04:42:06 PM by btr568 » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 04:49:02 PM »

That is alot to know about bees wax,thank you.the main problem where I am is getting bees wax.Can you use some of wax they sell at food stores as furniture wax?
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2009, 06:18:00 PM »

well this is gonna take me a while to round up for ya'll about wax.the best and cheapest place is a local beekeeper(s).but there are speciality companys that deal wax also.
www.GloryBeeFoods.com     has bar & bulk wax,page 70 in the printed catalog
okay using their search the item numbers you want are 13720 filtered imported 4.35(contains 8% paraffin...11086 bleached imported 5.95 (contains 8% paraffin)  or if your the all natural kinda guy,15665 domestic unfiltered 5.35(this means it has impurities in it,like wings,feet stuff like that)
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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2009, 06:44:43 PM »

LOL,I just reread your post.I guess you could use plain wax on furniture,but it would get expensive real quick.But it works great on surfboards Grin
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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2009, 07:06:14 AM »

That is alot to know about bees wax,thank you.the main problem where I am is getting bees wax.Can you use some of wax they sell at food stores as furniture wax?

E-bay is a good source for beeswax, cheap too.
I have used several recipes for bp lube, or what I call grease cookies.  Bees wax, paraffin and any of the following, olive oil, Crisco, Ballistoll and animal tallow.  Animal fat goes rancid, I only used it one time.  Basically I mix half cup beeswax, half cup paraffin and 8-10 table spoons of what ever oil I chose to use for that batch.  Mix it over very low heat(double boiler), pour on to a heated cookie sheet  about an 1/8 inch thick and allow to cool.  Then I punch out 'cookies' with a .45 or .38 case.  I ended up making tubes about four inches long, open on both ends for the cookie cutters.  Play around with the mix till you get it the consistency you like when it's room temp.  If you don't like the first batch, mix it again and add what ever you need to get the consistency you want.
I use the cookies as a wad between the powder and ball, they also make a excellent arbor lube for Colts.
YMMV
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2009, 02:08:19 PM »

Couple of notes. Watch the vegetable oil(Crisco etc.) that you buy in that some of it contains salt. Not good for the barrel.
Container blend soy wax makes a good sub for beeswax, generally cheaper.

I like the old 1/2 part beeswax(soywax), 1 part canning parrafin and 1 part mutton tallow. For me this is a little hard so I bump the mutton a bit.
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2009, 03:14:39 PM »

First time I've seen anyone confess to "bumpin' the mutton".  Shocked
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2009, 09:08:44 PM »

I posted my recipe for Gatofeo No. 1 Black Powder Lubricant, knowing full well that a slew of folks would follow with, 'Hey ... what if I used (fill in the blank) instead?"
It is a common question with one answer: "Use the specific ingredients listed, in the amounts listed. Substitution results in an inferior product."

The ingredients are very specific, because I haven't found anything else that works as well:

1 part canning paraffin --
Who knows what is in discarded candles? Coloring? Scent? No-drip chemicals? Canning paraffin is the purest paraffin readily available.

1 part Mutton tallow --
As far back as 1855, the British Army specified mutton tallow over beef or pork. Now, this may be due to the Brits occupying lands where the residents were Hindu (who consider cows sacred) or Muslim (pigs are unclean and eating them is an affront to Allah).
Such faithful were forbidden from handling products made from these dead animals, and that included the cartridges that native soliders who served the British Army would require.
I cannot explain the property of mutton tallow that reduces black powder fouling so well. Some have told me it's the lanolin in the tallow, yet others say this can't be because the glands that produce lanolin are not in the fat.
I don't know. All I know is that nothing I've tried since about 1970, when I first began shooting cap and ball revolvers, works as well. I've tried deer, bear, beef, pork, turkey and elk fat.
I've tried Crisco, Fluffo, generic vegetable shortening and the oils of olive, canola, peanut, palm and avocado. None of it worked as well as mutton tallow.
Mutton tallow is sold by Dixie Gun Works. It's the only source I know of, but a little goes a long way.

1/2 part Beeswax --
Real beeswax. Not diluted with paraffin or any other kind of wax. Pure, unadulterated beeswax.
And real beeswax, at that. Not the synthetic stuff so common today. There was a time when you could just buy a toilet seal at the hardware store and you had beeswax.
Not anymore. It's all become synthetic.
I look for beeswax at Renaissance Fairs, gun shows, Mountain Man Rendezvous and hobby shops. Ebay has some on occasion, sometimes at a good price.

This lubricant has the consistency of lard. It softens in hot weather. At the range, I keep my container of wads in my drink cooler. After loading, it takes a while for the wad's lubricant to begin to melt. Long before then, I've fired the rounds.
I've never experienced a problem with lubricated wads affecting my powder. But if it concerns you, simply punch out some waxed paper wads from a milk carton and load them between the powder and lubricated wad. The waxed paper will keep the lubricant from reaching the powder.

I use Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant for felt wads, patches for my muzzleloading rifle, lead bullets loaded over black powder (in cartridges and in muzzleloaders) and for lubricating .32 Long Colt heeled bullets after they've been seated in a case.
It is particularly good with felt wads loaded over the powder in cap and ball revolvers. I load the wad separately first, for a good reason: if I forget to charge the chamber, it's much easier to remove a felt wad than it is a wad AND lead ball.
Also, I get a better feel for how much pressure I'm applying to the wad, and the black powder under it, if I load the wad separately. After all chambers are loaded with lubricated felt wads, then I begin seating the lead ball.

As to felt wads ...
Real, wool felt is required. A lot of felt sold today is polyester. Read plastic. Finding wool felt can be a problem, but it's easily ordered from Durofelt online.
Go to http://www.durofelt.com/
The woman who sells it, from her home in Little Rock, Arkansas, gets pure wool felt from her family business in India. I visited her a few years ago and she's very nice.
She was totally unaware that shooters had a need for wool felt of various thicknesses, but I think she's learned quite a bit since then. She sells sheets of wool from 1/16th inch thick up to nearly 1-inch thick! For lubricating wads in cartridges and muzzleloaders, buy the 1/8-inch thick sheet.
If you wish to take up space in a chamber or cartridge with a light load, use 1/4-inch thick wool felt.
If you buy .45-caliber Wonder Wads, they'll cost you $7 to $10 per $100.
If you order a piece of 3X3-foot hard, 1/8 inch thick felt from Durofelt, you'll pay $30. Shipping to U.S. addresses is free.
This 3X3-foot piece will provide you with about 5,180 wads of .45 caliber, figuring two wads across and two wads down in each square inch.
A .45-caliber punch will cost you $18 from Buffalo Arms at http://www.buffaloarms.com/about.htm
You can get by even cheaper by buying a hole punch set from Harbor Freight.
For .36-caliber use the 3/8ths punch, .44-40 (7/16th) or .50-caliber (1/2 inch). These Harbor Freight sets don't quite work for .45 caliber, as the 7/16th punch is too small and the 1/2-inch punch is too large.
And note, .44-caliber cap and ball revolvers are really .45 caliber, so you'll need a .45-caliber punch.
So, for about $50 you can get a lifetime supply of wads and never again face an empty shelf. With so many wads, you won't be hesitant to use them as filler, instead of corn meal, because they don't cost 10 cents apiece.

Of course, you can mutter, "The ol' desert cat's on a grump again; the ol' coot's crazier than a love-starved bedbug! I use (fill in the blank) lubricant and it works just fine for me!"
Ah well, use it then. I'm just relating what's worked for me since I brewed it about 9 years back.
Crisco, bacon grease, beef fat and a host of other natural fats and oils do work. I used them in the past, but not since.
An exception is olive oil. I still use it to coat my revolvers after they've been dried in the oven. It keeps rust away so I use it as a preservative.
Yeah, the ol' grumpy desert cat went on a rant. But I hope it was an educational rant.  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2009, 10:32:54 AM »

WOW!   Shocked  This has been a real educational thread for me!  Gatofeo, thanks for your input and those links are great.  And you anticipated and answered the questions I had on the felt wads.   Wink

I'm going to bookmark this thread for my future reference.  Think it qualifies as a sticky?   Undecided
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« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2009, 12:49:30 PM »

10-4 on that Atlaw!
I am also going to bookmark it!
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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2009, 09:31:58 PM »

I'll second Gatofeo's lube, it works and works well for me.  I do have a batch that is "modiefied" somewhat.  During winter around here I have a batch that is basicly the same except it's got a bit of olive oil and crisco added to make it a bit softer.  Only extended shooting will tell if there's any differance.

Just a quick qestion Gatofeo, have you had any problems with this lube drying out over time?  I know I've read of shooters out west prefering to cast and lube there on because by the time ammo got out west it was often dried out.  I've been using your lube recipie for years and it seems at room temp to be pretty hard and brittle.  Maybe it's getting old?  Don't know for sure.  Maybe I just need to mix up smaller batches, but I pan lube and like to do 3-4 trays at a time.

Thanks
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2009, 11:45:52 PM »

I make and keep my Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant in a quart Mason jar, with a good rubber seal. I've had no problems with it drying out. I think the longest I've gone with a batch is about four years. It remains just as moist as when first-made, if kept well sealed.
Any wads I lubricate are kept in Altoids sour candy tins. The regular Altoids mint tins won't work, because there's a hole where the two hinges are made. The Altoids sour candy tins are a press fit of top to bottom, like a tin of shoe polish. This creates a walrus' dream (tight seal).  Roll Eyes
Ahem.

Anyway, no I haven't had any problems with this lubricant drying out, if kept well sealed. Nor have I seen it get brittle, if made in the proportions I specified.
Could it be that you didn't use real beeswax? Some shooters who made the Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant have reported that synthetic beeswax results in a lumpy lubricant not as good as when real beeswax is used. Perhaps, over time, that lumpiness becomes cracks?

I have mutton tallow in a plastic snap-lid tub purchased from Dixie Gun Works about 7 years ago. It's still just as moist as when new. There is no sign of rancidity.

This lubricant, in the proportions I've posted, will get soft in very hot weather. I live in the remote Utah desert, where temperatures can reach up to 112 or so. On days like this, I simply don't go shooting. It's just too hot to shoot; the risk of dehydration and heatstroke is too great for a fat, ol' cat like me.
However, I've been shooting when it's been around 100 to 105. In these instances, I kept the lubricated wads in the freezer I brought along with cold drinks.

If contamination of your loads is a concern, from the lubricant in the wads liquifying, then seat a waxed paper wad made from a milk carton on top of the powder before seating the lubricated wad. The waxed paper will be a barrier to contamination.

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2009, 11:30:21 AM »

Thanks Gatofeo, I've been keeping it in one of those aluminum pitchers they sell at craft stores to melt wax, just putting a sheet of wax paper over it and a ruber band to keep dust and stuff out.  Sounds like I might be letting it dry out a bit.  I mixed in the ratio's you specified and at first seemed real good, but now after a pan lubing the cake if left to cool long enough can break pretty easily.

I'm using real bee's wax.  The lube still seems to work real well, and still gets pretty soft in the sun.  I'll see about getting a container to keep it air tight.  I had a mason jar bust one time with it so I don't use them anymore.

Thanks
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