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The 30/06

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kix:
  Hello all again. Yes,the 06 is great cartridge but like most of you (rifle nuts) it is not the only thing out there. I am having a 700 .243 re-barreled to 7/08 and it will be my newest pet. Due to the long deer season here in Texas I hunt with a myriad of rifles but I no longer feel like a poor,under-privledged citizen/hunter holding a 30/06. The 06 will get the job done just as well as as the newer wsms,wssms,etc. Kix

Coyote Hunter:

--- Quote from: diggler1833 on March 18, 2009, 10:23:44 PM ---I realize the potential of the .308 vs. the 30-06.  For most practical shooting the .308 is all you need. 

--- End quote ---

I tend to agree that for MOST practical shooting the .308 is all you need.  In Big Bear country I would much prefer a .30-06 with 220g bullets, something the .308 Win is not particularly well suited to handle.  For my own purposes, hunting elk and smaller in Colorado, I use both the .308 Win and .30-06 loaded with identical bullets.  I push the .30-06 about 150fps faster for my hunting loads but run them about the same  (.308 velocities) with the target loads.  Although I shoot both out to 500 yards, at that range I would prefer my 7mm RM or .300 Win Mag if shooting elk.


--- Quote ---Keep in mind though that just about any handloader can run a 30-06 100-150fps faster than the .308.  With recoil less than a .300magnum to some that might be what they are looking for. 

--- End quote ---
Well, you are right on the first part.  But since you are talking about handloads, the second part is wrong – loaded to the same velocity there is little difference in recoil.  For example, using Nosler #6 as the source, a 165g AB can be pushed to 3002fps with a max .30-06 load and 3026fps with a mild .300 Win load.  Assuming an 8.3 pound rifle in both cases, the difference in recoil is due to the .300 Win’s larger powder charge – 67.0g vs 63.0g. 

The difference in recoil is 1.3 foot-pounds, 25.4f-p vs 24.0f-p.  Not a big enough difference to worry about.  In this case the difference to worry about is the .300 Win Mag can push the bullet to 3290fps with a max load. 


--- Quote ---Don't forget as well, for the most part the venerable .308 is trumped ballistically by the 260Rem, 7mm-08, or even better a 24" barrel 7mm-08AI. 

--- End quote ---

I have to call “BS” on this claim.  The .308 Win, by virtue of the larger base diameter of the bullet (more area) can, at the same pressure, drive bullets of the same weight faster than the smaller calibers.  In many cases this works out that the .308 Win can drive heavier bullets to the same velocity as the smaller calibers drive lighter bullets.

Using Nosler 6 as the reference again:
.308 Win = 180g AB (BC .507, SD .271) @ 2718fps
.308 Win = 165g AB (BC .475, SD .248) @ 2910fps
.308 Win = 150g AB (BC .435, SD .226) @ 3001fps
.308 Win = 125g BT (BC .366, SD .188) @ 3284fps

7mm-08 = 160g AB (BC .531, SD .283) @ 2780fps
7mm-08 = 140g AB (BC .485, SD .248) @ 2953fps

.260 Rem = 140g HPBT (BC .529, SD .287) @ 2830fps
.260 Rem = 130g AB (BC .488, SD .266) @ 2911fps
.260 Rem = 120g BT (BC .458, SD .246) @ 3049fps
.260 Rem = 100g BT (BC .350, SD .205) @ 365fps

Now if we take these loads and zero for MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) using a 6” diameter target (Max 3” bullet deviation above or below LOS):
.308 Win = 180g AB, 274yds = MPBR;  500yds = -42.0”, 1930fps, 1489fpe
.308 Win = 165g AB, 291yds = MPBR;  500yds = -35.5”, 2039fps, 1523fpe
.308 Win = 150g AB, 297yds = MPBR;  500yds = -33.7”, 2040fps, 1386fpe
.308 Win = 125g BT, 315yds = MPBR;  500yds = -28.2”, 2097fps, 1221fpe

7mm-08 = 160g AB, 281yds = MPBR;  500yds = -38.7”, 2014fps, 1441fpe
7mm-08 = 140g AB, 296yds = MPBR;  500yds = -33.5”, 2090fps, 1358fpe

.260 Rem = 140g HPBT, 286yds = MPBR;  500yds = -36.8”, 2053fps, 1311fpe
.260 Rem = 130g AB, 292yds = MPBR;  500yds = -35.0”, 2061fps, 1226fpe
.260 Rem = 120g BT, 302yds = MPBR;  500yds = -31.3”, 2122fps, 1200fpe
.260 Rem = 100g BT, 321yds = MPBR;  500yds = -26.9”, 2111fps, 989fpe

What these numbers show is that, with handloads, the .308 Win can deliver more thump at 500 yards with bullet weights of similar weight or SD and that at ranges out to 500 yards there is no significant advantage in trajectory with the 7mm-08 or .260 Rem.   In fact, if you are looking at delivered energy and retained velocity, the .308 Win wins the trajectory game in every case. 

I will let you go through the numbers for factory loads.


--- Quote ---Why not run the 7mm-08AI with the heavy 7mm bullets and have the same recoil as a .308 with an effective target range of 200-300yds more than the .308?  Don't forget the .243 as well if you have a custom stick and run the heavies.  All rounds are based on the same case as well just to keep the comparrison's legitimate.

--- End quote ---

Your claim that the 7mm-08AI provides 200-300 yds more than the .308 is ludicrous.  The .280 Rem has more case capacity than the 7mm-08AI and can shoots the same bullets at higher velocities.

.280 Rem = 160g AB (BC .531, SD .283) @ 2929fps
.280 Rem = 140g AB (BC .485, SD .248) @ 3152fps

.280 Rem = 160g AB, 295yds = MPBR;  500yds = -33.1”, 2139fps, 1625fpe
.280 Rem = 140g AB, 313yds = MPBR;  500yds = -27.5”, 2252fps, 1577fpe

So how does the faster-than-the-7mm-08AI-could-ever-hope-to-be .280 Rem compare to the .308 Win?

With 160g bullets the .280 Rem adds a whopping 4 yards to MPBR when compared to the .308 Win and 165g bullets.  At 500 yards it is 2.4” flatter, 100fps faster and has 102fpe more energy.  The trajectory advantage disappears quickly, at 510 yards, and the energy and velocity advantage only adds about 48 yards.

With 140g bullets the .280 Rem adds a whopping 16 yards to MPBR when compared to the .308 Win and 150g bullets.  At 500 yards it is 6.2” flatter, 212fps faster and has 191fpe more energy.  The trajectory advantage disappears quickly, at 530 yards.  The velocity advantage adds 135 yards and the retained energy adds about 90 yards.

Keeping in mind that the 7mm-08AI can’t hope to keep up with the .280 Rem when loaded to similar pressures, there is no way the 7mm-08AI has “an effective target range of 200-300yds more than the .308”.



--- Quote ---the 30-06 is here due to people's comfort with the round's capability and nostalgia, not because it out performs.  It is just a comfortable medium with which to hunt everything on our continent with, just like our fathers and grandfathers did.

--- End quote ---

The .30-06 is here for a lot of reasons, not just nostalgia.  It will do everything the .308 Win can do at lower pressures and if can do more than the .308 Win when loaded to the same pressures.  As bullet weight increases above 168g  the .30-06 really starts to distance itself from the .308 Win.

I happened to buy my .30-06 in 2006 and did so for a couple reasons, one of which was nostalgic.  That reason, however, did not drive the decision nearly as much as other factors.

Using Nosler 6 as the reference again:
.30-06 = 180g AB (BC .507, SD .271) @ 2872fps
.30-06 = 165g AB (BC .475, SD .248) @ 3002fps
.30-06 = 150g AB (BC .435, SD .226) @ 3056fps
.30-06 = 125g BT (BC .366, SD .188) @ 3418fps

.30-06 = 180g AB, 289yds = MPBR;  500yds = -35.8”, 2058fps, 1692fpe
.30-06 = 165g AB, 299yds = MPBR;  500yds = -32.3”, 2114fps, 1637fpe
.30-06 = 150g AB, 302yds = MPBR;  500yds = -31.9”, 2084fps, 1446fpe
.30-06 = 125g BT, 328yds = MPBR;  500yds = -24.7”, 2198fps, 1341fpe

When comparing these to the .308 Win, remember that these use the lower .30-06 pressures.  If handloading to similar pressures as the .308 win, the numbers get even better.



--- Quote ---Killing power is not necessarily as noteworthy as a shooter who can put the bullet where he wants it, and knows a little about bullet construction and how they perform on game at the velocities for the ranges they'll be hunting at.  There are many hunters out there who have killed large game with 6.5's, .257's, and .243's.  I will conceed though that an inexperienced hunter who is a mediocre shot would do well to use the largest caliber that they are comfortable with.

I just like my 30-06 because it reminds me of my younger years when I didn't have the responsibilities that I do now.

--- End quote ---


There is no disagreement here about the importance of bullet placement or matching the bullet to the application.  I hunt deer with my .257 Roberts but would not hesitate to use it on elk  given a good opportunity.

diggler1833:
Well I think we are at at disagreement here.  First off I don't use much of Nosler for anything.  Not to say that they aren't good bullets, but their selection is a bit limited for long range shooting.  For your impressive data look-up on the .308/.260/7mm-08 comparrison, try running your .308 Nosler numbers again with these BC's:

.264 cal Berger 140gr Target VLD and Target BT Long Range.  .595 and .618 respectively.
            Hornady 140 A-Max. .550
            Sierra Match King 140 and 142gr.  .535 and .585-595 respectively.

.284 cal Berger 168gr and 180gr VLD.  .617 and .659 respectively
             Hornady 162 A-Max. .625
             Sierra Match King 175gr. .608

There are plenty of great online ballistics calculators for you to try out.  Here is a good one:
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj_basic/traj_basic.html

I don't care much about out to 500yds like are in your comparrison.  Granted while the vast majority of hunting is done within these ranges, but maybe some like to set up some steel and paper targets, and bang it out at long ranges.  Your 125gr Nosler BT's are going to go transonic and spread out wildly well before 1K, even though they drop the least at 500.

Try running the numbers out to 1200-1300yds.  See if you don't find out how the .308 takes a back seat to a .260/7mm08 with a fast-twist barrel.  Then imput the 7mm-08Ai data.  Find out which bullet goes transonic first.

If all I'd ever shoot in my life is to 500yds I'd be happy to live with your most outstanding data that you looked up.

I will say this to end, if you can get a good 155gr Lapua Scenar load, and maybe a good 210VLD/208 A-Max load for a .308, then you can get somewhat close.

Coyote Hunter:
diggler1833 –

I guess I was assuming this is what we were talking about:


--- Quote from: diggler1833 ---For most practical shooting the .308 is all you need.

--- End quote ---


And I submit that ***most*** “practical shooting” is done at 500 yards or less.  Probably what – 98-99% of all shots fired?  Maybe more? 

If I wanted a custom, low recoil, long range rifle I would build a 6.5mm-06AI.  Indeed, I am in the process of doing exactly that, with a 1-8 twist.  The intended bullet for hunting purposes is the 130g Scirocco II (BC .571) and Berger bullets will be among the bullets used for long range targets.

Comparing the following:
.260 Rem = 140g Target BT (BC .618, SD .283) @ 2900fps (if you can get it to go that fast)
6.5mm-06AI = 130g Scirocco II (BC .571, SD .266) @ 3200fps (just 50fps faster than Nosler 6.5mm-06 data)
7mm-08AI = 180g VLD (BC .659, SD .319) @ 2800fps (if you can get it to go that fast)
.308 Win = 165g AB (BC .475, SD .248) @ 2910fps (Nosler 6th)
.308 Win = 180g AB (BC .507, SD .271) @ 2718fps (Nosler 6th)

Yields these results:

.260 Rem = 140g Target BT, 296yds = MPBR zero;  500yds = -32.2”, 2217fps, 1527fpe
6.5mm-06AI = 130g Scirocco II, 322yds = MPBR zero;  500yds = -24.3”, 2417fps, 1686fpe
7mm-08AI = 180g VLD, 288yds = MPBR zero;  500yds = -35.0”, 2170fps, 1881fpe
.308 Win = 165g AB, 291yds = MPBR zero; 500yds = -35.5”, 2039fps, 1523fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, 274yds = MPBR zero;  500yds = -42.0”, 1930fps, 1489fpe

And at 1500 yds:
.260 Rem = 140g Target BT, MPBR Zero @ 296yds;  1500yds = -804”, 1172fps, 427fpe
6.5mm-06AI = 130g Scirocco II, MPBR Zero @ 322yds;  1500yds = -691”, 1214fps, 425fpe
7mm-08AI = 180g VLD, MPBR Zero @ 288yds;  1500yds = -826”, 1188fps, 564fpe
.308 Win = 165g AB, MPBR Zero @ 291yds;  1500yds = -1060”, 977fps, 349fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 274yds;  1500yds = -1154”, 976fps, 380fpe

Your claim that the 7mm-08AI cartridge provides “an effective target range of 200-300yds more than the .308” doesn’t wash, either.

7mm-08AI = 180g VLD, MPBR Zero @ 288yds;  1500yds = -826”, 1188fps, 564fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 291yds;  1390yds = -825”, 1024fps, 384fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 274yds;  1350yds = -826”, 1038fps, 430fpe

At those energies I hope you are punching paper, not game.  Let’s call it 110-150 yards, even with crappy Nosler AB bullets for the .308.  Of course when you’re dealing with bullet drops of 68 feet for starters, does turning the knobs another couple clicks really make a huge difference?


But again, I thought we were talking about *** most practical shooting*** situations, which does certainly not include ranges like these. 

From a ***practical*** standpoint, it rarely makes a difference whether you carry a .260 Rem, 7mm-08 or AI, or .308 Win.  Any will do the job most people ask them to do most of the time.  The 1000-yard plus shooters are a rather elite group and few in number - at least the ones that are any good at it.  (I assume you are one of the elite.  I’ve never shot past 1000 yards and rarely shoot past 600.)

Thanks for the link to the online ballistic calculator.  I have downloaded the free Point Blank calculator available at www.huntingnut.com and have used it for a number of years.  I much prefer it to most calculators as it has a button to calculate MPBR zeros and ranges.

I also use “iSnipe” and “Ballistic” which I downloaded to my iPhone.  Cost was about $8 total, I believe, and both are recommended.

diggler1833:

--- Quote from: Coyote Hunter on March 21, 2009, 11:41:59 PM ---diggler1833 –


Your claim that the 7mm-08AI cartridge provides “an effective target range of 200-300yds more than the .308” doesn’t wash, either.

7mm-08AI = 180g VLD, MPBR Zero @ 288yds;  1500yds = -826”, 1188fps, 564fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 291yds;  1390yds = -825”, 1024fps, 384fpe
.308 Win = 180g AB, MPBR Zero @ 274yds;  1350yds = -826”, 1038fps, 430fpe




--- End quote ---

Let's agree to disagree.  I just wanted to include that small quote up above though to let you know that at your 1300yds your 180AB is subsonic.  And yes, your figures on the 7mm-08AI are keepint it supersonic at a greater range past 1500.  There are your 200-300yds that "didn't wash".  You also never included in your extensive data research anything for wind drift.  I am going to say it again, that ballistically the longrange effects of the .260/7mm-08 are superior (even the little .243) to the .308.  Isn't that what this whole disagreement started over?

I'm not going to bring in the short action/long action debate, I just don't have the energy nor the desire to fight over the internet about how a long action 6.5-06AI is better than a .260 Remington.  The 6.5-06AI is better, and it should be for all the extra case capacity.  I just hope you like to rebarrel a lot or shoot a little.  Should make for a good open country hunting rifle though.

You enjoy your shooting, and I'll enjoy mine.  You've probably been very successful in your shooting/hunting ventures.  I'm not knocking that.  I've just got my own personal experiences and I know what works from those.

It may even surprise you to know that the rifle I'm finishing up for a few matches this year is a .308.  It is not like I don't dislike the caliber, I love it.  It is more economical and pleasant to shoot than a lot of other calibers.   It's just not as good as cutting through the wind or stays supersonic as long as the .260/7mm-08/AI.  'Nuff said.

Good day.

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