Author Topic: Don't Know Where to Ask This...but (Read 1112 times)

Swampman · « **on:** April 09, 2012, 02:04:37 PM »

Would you or could you attend a church that you had doctrinal differences with. Clearly none teach what I believe, so in looking for one to take my wife to I have to accept that I will be sitting through some sermons that I disagree with. I can do that, in fact I have been for years. Do you just eat the pie and spit out the seeds?

Graybeard Outdoors · « **on:** April 09, 2012, 02:04:37 PM »

reliquary · « **Reply #1 on:** April 09, 2012, 05:47:48 PM »

I'm a lot more "mainstream" than you appear to be, based on what I've seen you write on these discussions. But I still find few who believe exactly as I do. Since my conversion in 1980, we've been in about a dozen churches as we moved around the country and overseas...some are okay, some aren't okay, none are perfect (all have humans in them). Eat the pie and spit out the seeds.

Swampman · « **Reply #2 on:** April 09, 2012, 07:05:42 PM »

I talked to a fellow today about what I was looking for and he suggested a place about 40 miles away. Traditional music (hymns) was something I was looking for. I'm thinking about giving it a try.

williamlayton · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2012, 07:17:24 PM »

Lordy Swampy---I would be scared to death of a church that that agreed with me on every issue---I lose arguements with myownself all the time.
I have never found a church that saw "all things" the same as I do--what I like is a church that is strong enough to know that there are a lot of differences in denominational isses that are worthy of discussion by hardly worthy of splitting for.
It is different when a chucrh says you MUST adhere to all of their denominational tenants or leave---I will just leave & have.
Blessings

ironglow · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2012, 07:29:52 PM »

There's an old saying Swampy.; There are a lot of folks looking for the "perfect church"..but if they did find one.. the day they joined in, it would no longer be perfect. That could describe most all of us..we are humans...
Much like the the political views around here..some won't accept less than their "perfect" candidate. Whether we are dealing with churches, politicians, doctors, gunsmiths or chefs...we will never find the "perfect" man... Only one perfect man ever walked this earth..and that was about 2,000 years ago.. That goes for man founded and run organizations also.

Seeing your posts, you would likely be most happy with a Calvinist or "Reformed" church. Go for the fellowship and it may well "grow on you". Yes, I know what you mean about music..I like the same type.

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2012, 08:53:43 PM »

Quote from: williamlayton on April 09, 2012, 07:17:24 PM

Lordy Swampy---I would be scared to death of a church that that agreed with me on every issue---I lose arguements with myownself all the time.
I have never found a church that saw "all things" the same as I do--what I like is a church that is strong enough to know that there are a lot of differences in denominational isses that are worthy of discussion by hardly worthy of splitting for.
It is different when a chucrh says you MUST adhere to all of their denominational tenants or leave---I will just leave & have.
Blessings
[/quote
Swampman,
Bill has it right, even the part when he says that he loses arguements with himself sometimes As we grow in faith we are likely to change or at least modify our beliefs due to maturing and better understanding of the Bible. The denominational churches that I'm familiar with rely on their denomination's doctrines rather than the word of God. The Lord has led me to a non-denominational Bible church which accepts the Bible as God's word rather than a book about God which I have seen in denominational churches.

As an example, while in Florida we attended several Wednesday evening Lenten services at a local major denominational church. After the services, where the sermons were lukewarm at best, there was a soup supper. My friend was talking with the president of one of their seminaries and the subjects of gay pastors and abortion were discussed. We found out that they did ordain gay ministers and that homosexualism and abortion were "complicated issues". And in another conversation with a retired pastor and his wife we were told that abortion was not mentioned in the Bible and that the pastor's wife became "sick to her stomach" when the Bible was quoted. We left and didn't return. We found 2 churches that preach the Bible and they are both about 30 minutes away and worth the time and expense of attending.

Another denominational church we attended for a few weeks had a great Bible Study going right after the Sunday service. The subject was the book of Daniel and the teacher was one of the best ones I have ever experienced.

williamlayton · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2012, 05:21:51 AM »

Most Denominational Churches of any strength recognize that issue of Gifts, and other subjects are viewed differently by others in the church--no matter what the Denomination pronounces.
Any Church that does not preach from scripturers & is liberal in teaching will not be graced by my presence---and the choir said "thank God"--

. Denominations do have a couple of things that I like--the church is not owned by a family and there are some checks and balances with funds and Missions.
Blessings

wncchester · « **Reply #7 on:** April 10, 2012, 09:34:39 AM »

"Would you or could you attend a church that you had doctrinal differences with. "

The church is the people, not the building, so I can, I do and I will continue because I love them all; how could any of us who claim Jesus as Lord do otherwise? Do you even fully agree with your own wife on every point or do you have her to cowed to let you know she differers with you on some questions? Surely, if we properly follow I Cor 13 we can easily accept small differences in doctrine from others; they certainly have to do so in order to put up with us but their Godly love enables them to do that!

Duke0313 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 11, 2012, 06:52:54 AM »

Jesus sat in the synagogue and heard things that he disagreed with, but he was there.

Victor3 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 11, 2012, 07:52:06 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on April 09, 2012, 02:04:37 PM

Would you or could you attend a church that you had doctrinal differences with.... Do you just eat the pie and spit out the seeds?

I haven't been able to find a traditional style (established in a dedicated building, etc.) church where I could publicly "spit out a seed" without several people encouraging me to believe that it (some church practice or accepted doctrine) was nothing but a hard piece of pie crust, not to be concerned about.

At least in my home-based church group, when someone spits out what they believe to be a seed, it lands on the coffee table and we all lean over to examine it together without the seed-spitter having to fear being shunned.

littlecanoe · « **Reply #10 on:** April 11, 2012, 08:18:59 AM »

This is a good question to ask. Many good answers here.

Based on scripture, do we have the right to disassociate from congregation?

If we disassociate from congregation is this an indication of the soul?

If not an indication of the soul, what does/could disassociation indicate?

What are the admonitions in scripture for us to gather together and what are the benefits of this congregating?
Let's add some scriptural meat to this framework.

lc

littlecanoe · « **Reply #11 on:** April 11, 2012, 01:22:45 PM »

Thinking about this at lunch. Are we commanded to be passive or active in our faith and practice? Are we to be primarily consumers when we fellowship or are we to demonstrate the sacrifice and example of Christ through service?

Swampman · « **Reply #12 on:** April 11, 2012, 01:40:47 PM »

I try to be active in my faith and practice in everything I do. Fellowship should be a two way street. If I'm gonna fellowship, I need a little return. I'm willing to meet anyone almost all the way though.

I can make a Biblical case for church going (or not) either way. I think my wife thinks she needs a church so I don't mind taking her.

reliquary · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2012, 03:55:11 PM »

I very much believe in active faith and try to demonstrate it in my daily life. I believe that we serve God by serving others (Matthew 25:31-46).

The best deal I can find in a church is when they leave me to my way of believing and I leave them to theirs. I have been told in other places, "You can't believe 'that' if you want to worship here", and I've left voluntarily because of it.

Swampman · « **Reply #14 on:** April 11, 2012, 05:13:27 PM »

So have I. When asked what I believe, I usually just say you don't want to know.

wncchester · « **Reply #15 on:** April 11, 2012, 06:47:08 PM »

"I have been told in other places, "You can't believe 'that' if you want to worship here"

That's appalling. It's the people who 'believe' incorrectly we should most WANT to "worship here." I've gone to a lot of churches over the last 7 decades but I've never known of any church leader expressing that thought.

I have known of a few churches, including the one I'm in now, properly requiring that anyone applying for membership agree to specific points of doctrine and not cause internal strife before officially joining but I've NEVER heard of anyone demanding that people agree to such standards for attending and fully participating in local church activities. (Formal membership should be required for voting, teaching and holding most church offices tho.)

In fact, we have a couple who have attended for some 20 years without joining because the husband holds some strange idea that the Trinity isn't what scripture says but they are fully a part of our church family in every possible, non-member, way. We love them as part of our church family, they have received pastoral and congregational support during times of trouble and, to the best of my knowledge, NO ONE has every confronted them in any inappropriate way for what they incorrectly believe. And, IF that ever happened - and was known - it's highly probable the elders would visit the attacker for Godly correction; that IS part of the elder's shepherding duty, before God! (see Jer 23 and Ezk 34)

Swampman · « **Reply #16 on:** April 11, 2012, 07:05:35 PM »

The one I'm thinking about attending, you can't join. If they disagree with y'all does that make the "incorrect"?

williamlayton · « **Reply #17 on:** April 11, 2012, 07:39:22 PM »

Incorrect---
we will all see and most of us will be astonished by our lack of understanding on some issues.
This does not include the Diety of Christ.
Blessings

reliquary · « **Reply #18 on:** April 11, 2012, 08:16:03 PM »

wncchester: On one of the occasions, it was an elder who told me that. It wasn't a "membership" question, but a "doctrinal" question.

littlecanoe · « **Reply #19 on:** April 11, 2012, 09:19:07 PM »

Hebrews 10: 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Failure to meet is equated with neglect.

Benefits of meeting are the stirring of each other to love and good works and to encourage each other.
I believe that the neglect of meeting together would be that we are weakened because we are not stirred and encouraged. It appears to be clear that the expectation of God is that we meet together because of benefits within and to the members of the body and the body as a whole.

What other scriptural principles address our meeting together? Can someone address the idea of how our collective worship reflects and glorifies God?

lc

Swampman · « **Reply #20 on:** April 11, 2012, 09:25:08 PM »

Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
I meet with my wife everyday.

reliquary · « **Reply #21 on:** April 11, 2012, 10:25:22 PM »

To the extent that we uplift, encourage/exhort, and edify one another, church is the place to be. Our purpose on Earth is to serve and worship God. We all have our own, unique ways of doing that. Not having a church background in the first half of my life, I didn't have those kinds of role models and have sought them in the people I've met in the churches I've attended. In other words, Swampy, I'd rather be in a church at least most of the time.

The biggest problem I've run into, is that a lot of people seem to be Godly only for a short time on Sundays and Wednesdays and I think that we "worship" all the time, not just in rituals twice weekly. As one old preacher said, "We don't 'do' worship, we 'are' worship."

ironglow · « **Reply #22 on:** April 13, 2012, 11:20:43 AM »

Swampy;
Here's my take..take it or leave it..just my $ .02 !

In almost any Christian setting certain beliefs are universal just to BE a Christian. Beyond these 5 fundamentals, we can disagree about almost anything without fracturing the body as a whole. We cannot know every last detail, Paul wrote in (1 Cor 31:12) that " now we see through a glass, darkly".. "but then face-to-face".. "now we know in part'.
Even though there can be small differences, we can still worship together, refuse to "major on minors", enjoy good fellowship and be assured of our salvation.
Here are the 5 fundamentals (there may be small semantic differences) which we should share:

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
THE FIVE BASIC DOCTRINES
1. The Trinity: God is one "What" and three "Whos" with each "Who" possessing all the attributes of Deity and personality.

2. The Person of Jesus Christ: Jesus is 100% God and 100% man for all eternity.

3. The Second Coming: Jesus Christ is coming bodily to earth to rule and judge.

4. Salvation: It is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

5. The Scripture: It is entirely inerrant and sufficient for all Christian life
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

You will find some small word variation from time to time but the basic values remain. Again, that is (IMO) and you can reject it if you wish.

wncchester · « **Reply #23 on:** April 13, 2012, 11:20:51 AM »

" If they disagree with y'all does that make the "incorrect"?"

If they disagree with ME, yes! (

) But, as imperfect children of God, I can still luv 'em can't I?

"On one of the occasions, it was an elder who told me that. It wasn't a "membership" question, but a "doctrinal" question."

Anyone telling anyone that they "can't worship here if you believe that" is worse than wrong, it's stupid no matter their title.

"The one I'm thinking about attending, you can't join."

Purely personal view: Any church that doesn't have formal membership doesn't have a proper operating structure. That usually means it's run by a family clicque with few if any meaningful rules limiting what the leaders may do, which can be good or bad. It concerns me because that's how charismatic but ungodly leaders like Jim Jones and David Koresh get stated so it matters a whole lot how Godly the leadership is ... or isn't. IF I didn't already have a Godly church family and my wife wanted to attend such a church I would probably go ... a few times anyway ... but with my eyes wide open to their methods and goals more than small points of doctine or worship style that may differ from mine.

But, if any group teaches a gospel other than the one Paul taught (that is unearned salvation by the Grace of God obtained by choosing the risen Jesus as the lord of life through faith in His attoning sacrifice of Himself on the cross) I would only go once. That's why I reject such groups as JW, LDS, etc; they present Jesus as less than fully God and then teach people to seek salvation by trying to be 'good enough' to deserve it, which makes a mockery of the gift of grace we receive by faith in Jesus alone (Eph 2:8-10). Cults always turn salvation into something to be earned by works and that is NOT a small difference in "denominational" belief, it's a blatant contridiction of Scripture!

This doesn't quite seem like a 'proper Bible study' for this forum now but it's relivant and I hope it doesn't get locked down.

Swampman · « **Reply #24 on:** April 13, 2012, 06:07:23 PM »

Well it's for sure I'll never find one that teaches the majors as I see them. In fact I believe I'm the only person that believes the way I do.

wncchester · « **Reply #25 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:18:30 PM »

"Well it's for sure I'll never find one that teaches the majors as I see them. In fact I believe I'm the only person that believes the way I do."

Your position about the Father-Son-Holy Spirit is unsual today - to say the least - but there was a sizable minority who held as you do back in the 300s. They had a name for their movement, I just forget what it was, but you are the only one I know of that has held that position since then! You remind me of AF basic training back in '59; sarge asked Johnson - who was always out of step - if it was his belief that everyone was out of step but him...?

Swampman · « **Reply #26 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:39:29 PM »

God Bless Johnson....

ironglow · « **Reply #27 on:** April 13, 2012, 08:13:17 PM »

LC has mentioned it as "Modalism", another term is Sabellianism.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

Swampman · « **Reply #28 on:** April 13, 2012, 08:38:31 PM »

Sound doctrine for sure.

williamlayton · « **Reply #29 on:** April 14, 2012, 12:01:13 PM »

There is but ONE GOD and that is a sure thing.
Blessings

Author Topic: Don't Know Where to Ask This...but (Read 1112 times)

Graybeard Outdoors