Author Topic: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416  (Read 7410 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline buckey

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« on: January 01, 2010, 11:17:35 am »
Sent a thank you note to Matt Lorie for being the sponsor  for house bill 5416, This bill would allow the use of straight walled pistol cartridges in rifles in the shotgun zone during deer season.I also asked what the chances were for passage . Matt's office sent back a note that the DNR was pitching a PISS-FIT, saying that it would be too confusing for field staff to tell if a cartridge was shorter then 1.8 inches, .35 cal or larger and had straight walls (don't they have to do this already because pistols are all ready legal ?) and that areas near towns would be closed because of this new rifle danger (B.S.) This sounds a lot like when C.P.L.s were being voted on, "There will be blood running in the streets if we allow people to carry handguns". Anyway if you think that toting a .357, .44 or something else in a rifle (remember, gotta be a straight walled cartridge less then 1.8 inches, .35cal or larger) for deer seasonwould be great, PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE send a note of support to your Rep asking for their support, also MUCC and the DNR wouldn't hurt ether . Others have put a lot of hard work into this bill, Let's help get a great common sense law passed
                                                          TX.  Buckey

Graybeard Outdoors

Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« on: January 01, 2010, 11:17:35 am »
 

Offline jjvw

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 10:00:05 am »
I believe pistols do not have the length restrictions. 45-70 and 444 and 375W are now legal in pistols.
Putting that limit on rifles would probably limit pistols too.
You can already shoot pistol bullets in muzzle loaders and slug guns. My 20ga is easily a 200 yd gun as well is my .50 ML.
If you just want to use old leverguns and trapdoors, most of them are design for longer cartridges too.
So what is it you want to accomplish?
I have been a lost child most of my life. 
Since being born in a log cabin that I built with my own hands, it has been an uphill struggle all the way.  Being so devastatingly handsome, intelligent,  rich-beyond-belief, and humble have all worked together to shape me and my destinies.

Offline gman628

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2010, 11:19:49 am »
I agree with jjvw, we don't need this, it will only lead to restrictions to my pistol huntig calibers.  I started hunting with an Encore pistol three years ago in zone 3 so I could get away from the shot gun.  I currently use a 15" barrel in .444 Marlin.  I don't want them coming up with new restrictions telling me I can't use it because the cartridge is too long.  I can use my Marlin lever gun in .444 up north but use my Encore down state (same cal. but legal because it's a pistol).  We will loose the ability to use straight walled rifle cartridges like .375 Win, .444 Marlin, 45/70 Govt.

Offline buckey

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 02:04:53 am »
"WOW" So much for the old guy that grew up watching Gun Smoke, Wagon Train and a handful of westerns, You know back when life was a little simpler . How allowing the use of straight walled pistol cartridges will put a stop to some one else,s fun, some how doesn't pass the smell test.

Offline Skunk

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3524
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 09:33:10 am »
Wow, what a bunch of complicated rules. Good discussion going on in this thread.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline gman628

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2010, 07:52:53 pm »
"WOW" So much for the old guy that grew up watching Gun Smoke, Wagon Train and a handful of westerns, You know back when life was a little simpler . How allowing the use of straight walled pistol cartridges will put a stop to some one else,s fun, some how doesn't pass the smell test.

Well to spell it out, I can currently use any straight wall cartridge in my pistol, this includes straight wall rifle cartridges.  The way this bill is written, it would limit the rifles to using on straight wall pistol cartridge that is 1.80" case length or less.  If this were to be passed, the DNR is already complaining about having to verify that the cartridge met the length restrictions.  So, the logical next step would be to present a bill or add to this one that would limit pistol users to also only be able to shoot pistol cartridges.  So I won't be able to use my .444 or 45/70 barrels which I do in zone 3.  Now, will I have the distance with a .44 Mag that I currently have with a rifle cartridge like .375, 444, 45/70, 450 Marin, or 460. I don't think so, and all these cartriges would be taken away from our options.  Now, with the new bill, it will tie my hands to an inferior selection of cartridges.  Why are most of these hunters want to pass laws that restrict us even more than we already are.  Whatch waht you ask for!!  

Offline carbineman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (62)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1335
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 08:23:32 am »
Why not repeal the idiotic rifle ban in the areas affected? It is totally not necessary and according to a Pa. study rifle bans accomplish nothing, and may even be detrimental to safety.

From an article I recently read:

In case anyone is interested in reading the Pennsylvania study:

http://6fbd21e64bc817fd097aa54148bd3dab37bc10ee.gripelements.com/documents/AFWA_Presentation_9-18-07.pdf

I am a WDNR (Wisconsin) Hunter Safety Instructor, so we have to point to this scientific study often
when this topic arises.  As a hunter, hunting in the shotgun only portion of Shawano County,
I am here to tell you that I have seen this "study" in practice.  A number of years ago the
local farm gang was driving and deer ran across the plowed field between our cabin, and
the hunters.  At about 500 yards from the cabin, the farm boys opened up, with Fosters slugs, and
smooth bore shotguns.  My father standing outside the cabin, watching the circus, was diving under his
truck, as the reflected slugs were piling into the hard maple trees around our cabin.  When confronted,
the farm boys had to be shown the fresh slug holes in the hard maples before they would believe
that 12 slugs could travel that far after hitting dirt in the plowed field.  A rifle bullet would have
destabilized, and lost energy much faster.  So safety wise, there is NO proof that shotguns are
safer, and if you read this study, you could come to the conclusion that in the majority of hunting
scenarios, the shotgun is more dangerous. 

Now limiting the EFFECTIVE range of deer hunting weapons is a different issue.

A fully rifled shotgun, shooting an all copper sabot slug has the effective range
of the old standard 30-30 Win. deer rifle, as does the modern magnum black powder rifle.  And not
to mention that the WI handgun rules open this effective range more.  I have a 308 Win. chambered
bolt action pistol, with a 2-7x scope on it, and it is legal in WI "shotgun only" zones.  So just strap
a butt stock on the thing, and it will look more like my 308 BAR.  One is legal below HWY 29, and
one is not.  This shows how stupid these laws have become.

So if the goal is to limit effective range, then to be honest about it, limitations to shotguns,
and muzzleloaders, need to be added.  Only smooth bore shotguns, and non-magnum muzzleloaders,
ought to be in the rules. 

Back on the topic of firearms restrictions, I am for the simplest rule.  You choose.  In firearms season, have
a minimum handgun, shotgun, and rifle restriction, and let the hunter choose which works best for them.  It
sure would simplify enforcement, too.

Don't get me started on limiting firearms ranges, for management purposes...The justifications remind me of
a pile of deer droppings.  There are many in a pile, and they are only good for fertilizer.

Offline Muddyboots

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 339
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2010, 01:03:23 pm »
Same argument by CO's for lead versus steel shot...How are we going to police the use of steel shot versus lead shot???? oh yeah a simple magnet was used....IN CO's use simple case length gauge and from what I have heard from IN DNR in person there has no issue whatsoever with their rule of 1.625" case length. I was stopped by a MI CO in muzzleloader season and I broke open my Encore then and would do so if this rule were to pass. This is pure BS by MI DNR based upon their own ignorance.

Many states are going with similar rules so you wonder why MI DNR is having trouble with this rule? The same calibers out of a Encore 15" barrel is already near maximum velocity based upon pistol powder burn rates. You don't gain a whole heck of velocity going to rifle length barrels with Pistol calibers. I have a 500 S&W in 26" barrel, the velocity plateaued at about 2350 with 45 gr. of Lil Gun. Going to max load of 49 gr. didn't gain 25 fps. This is only about 150 fps faster than an Encore 15" barrel same load. Heck, a 8 3/4" barrel is said to be 2150 fps.

Heard all the same arguments before when compound bows came out, they were not bows, the archery season will be killed, there will no bow hunting, releases make bows like crossbows....Treestands will increase injuries and fatalities in MI. Don't confuse the situation with facts. ..We have met the enemy and frankly it is us.

This is a good rule, does not change risks, PA study was provided to Matt Lori with citations specific to this rule. The problem appears to be we have non-professionals in the DNR dept. with no clue on firearms, etc. The real issue is they are "afraid" that IF someone were to be hurt, they will be held liable for the rule change. This is crap, we all know it but that is what we have in our DNR.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Ben Franklin

Offline gman628

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2010, 02:35:39 pm »
Muddyboots, I agree with what you're saying regarding the DNR using a length gauge or something to measure cartridge length, but if this bill passes and the DNR is still wining, I'm sure the nest bill down the line will be to also limit our Encore pistols to the same pistol calibers.  Now if your Encore was a 15" .500 as my .444 is, would you want to see them tell you it was no longer legal to use.

I hope the DNR puts up enough wining that this bill goes dead in the water.  JMHO

Gary

Offline Scibaer

  • Central Michigan, USA, Earth
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • FATE FAVORS THE WISE
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2010, 07:18:05 am »
Boots,
 you know your bill has my full support. why is the DRNE having trouble ? non- firearm educated un-professionals running the show, pure and simple.
 with the dead economy and failure of the DNRE to support hunters and hunting, this bill needs to pass , opening up more oppertunities for michigan sports men and women. now that the DNRE has to rewrite the baiting ban, maybe the message will be sent that they need to review thier desicision makeing processes.
the last thing michigan hunters need is more restrictions and this bill surely doesnt need to fall dead.
fall deer season, i hunted in the thumb region and could not see or understand the reason for that area being shotgun only... no rational descision there either.
the DNRE needs to support the sportsperson and gain some common sense.

Offline buckey

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2010, 07:25:01 pm »
Nothing seems to get done in Michigan no matter how much sense it makes. Do you really think we got in this mess with out the help of people who think that their .444 marlin are more  important then a few thousand people enjoying their cowboy guns including my daughter. NO BRAINS NEEDED HERE !
        

Offline Scibaer

  • Central Michigan, USA, Earth
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (25)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • FATE FAVORS THE WISE
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 11:40:54 am »
your right, we dont seem to get alot done here in michigan.
but when the DNRE wanted to ban baiting, they sure got that done in a big hurry.
they went full throttle in the wrong direction.

there are alot of ppl, who think that thier activity, choices or ideas are the most important topic for the DRNE to address.
and sometimes they are right, sometimes not.
but, unless we put it up for a vote, run it around and see if it works or not, we will never know and never get anywhere on any issue.
i think , alot of brains are needed. and the first thoughts should be to understand and accept the diversity of michingan hunters
the second, should be in my opinion would be not to squash an idea before its merits can be explored..

Offline buckey

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 05:42:21 pm »
Shibaer, Your 100% correct. People in our own sport of hunting, looking out for their own selfish interest instead of how to get more people into the sport can be our biggest problem.

Offline ducati

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 04:43:31 pm »
Lets see a confident 14 year old small girl shooting a lever .357 mag or a timid girl shooting the slug shotgun? a 375, 444 marlin and 45-70 are tapered rounds. Lets be real these are rifle rounds first that can be shot out of single shot handguns. 357, 41, 44, 45, 454 all are handgun rounds first.
I am for passing this bill.

Offline J. J. Magnum

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 11:40:27 am »
So did this project just die or what?  ???  Another deer season rapidly approaches...

Anyone know?

Offline rpharder

  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2010, 05:23:21 am »
I've been following this on MGO and they are still working on it. Not going to happen this year.

Offline ihookem

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 766
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2010, 04:59:54 pm »
My bro in law uses a 32 special and a .270 win in shotgun on in Shotgun only south of hwy 29. He will not spend 300 bucks on a shotgun. This is why we should change this law. I can hunt close to my home but don't have a decent shotgun for slugs. If it wasn't for my Encore muzzle loader I wouldn't hunt in shotgun zones at all.

Offline petemi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (75)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7779
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2010, 08:00:22 am »
Michigan needs to wake up and follow MS and LA's example.  Straight walled cartridges, single shot design.  Tests have shown that the pistol calibers in a rifle are less hazardous than a modern sabot.

The other thing is this forum is sitting here growing hair.  You guys need to get out here and exchange ideas before we let Lansing crawl all over us.

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22

Offline jeremy_p

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2011, 11:44:39 am »
I've done some searching on this, but it seems that this bill is dead in the water, any have information on it? I would love to hunting with pistol calibered rifles, but not at the expense of more handgun regulations.

Jeremy
Will engineer for money, food, guns, ammo, knives, motorcyles, trucks, shiny objects and most of all, TO PROVE YOU WRONG WHEN YOU SAID IT COULDN'T BE DONE!

Offline gman628

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2011, 07:43:06 am »
If you go to http://www.migunowners.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=221 you can follow this and other Mi. legislation that effects gun owners of our state.  Currently this particular bill is dead, but this is being discussed directly with the DNR.

Offline t-reg

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2011, 05:16:23 pm »
Maybe we should push for a special "straight-wall cartridge" season.   Those are pretty popular lately.

Offline longwinters

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3092
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2011, 06:01:13 pm »
Do we need another special season to further divide what time we do have to hunt?  It does seem strange that with the accuracy and distance that the new muzzleloaders have that there would even be a problem with opening up some seasons to additional/different guns/calibers.

Long
Life is short......eternity is long.

Offline petemi

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (75)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7779
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2011, 11:33:14 am »
I don't see any problem with useing pistol calibers in the Shotgun zone, or anywhere.  The COs don't have to measure the cartridges as long as the cases are head stamped for a legal caliber.  Just make the law read that valid headstamps are required.  No cut down .303 or .30-40 etc.  I believe States that have done the reserach found the pistol calibers safer than slug guns or MLs.  I'm not restricted, outside of ML season, so I hunt with pistol calibers 90% of the time....and love them in a Handi.  I'm taking the new dog and the .500 S&W red squirrel hunting as soon as the rain stops.......well, yeah, those suckers can charge ya.  No, seriously, I just destroy reds, and It is a great way to get the feel of a rifle, and breaks the dog in on loud music.

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22

Offline Muddyboots

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 339
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2011, 03:40:36 pm »
All,
HB 5416 is still breathing. Just received email from Rep. Matt Lori indicating it is still around and seems to be gathering legislative support. Just thought I'd get this out to anyone who may be interested.
Muddy


Merry Christmas to all!


No I am not going to be PC and say Warm Winter Festival greetings.........
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Ben Franklin

Offline ipyrek

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (20)
  • Avid Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 227
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2011, 04:08:41 pm »
I've been waiting for it to go through and pass.  Is there something we as individuals can do to help this along ?
28ga.mod.,20ga.mod.,20ga.full,20ga.USH, 20ga.PardnerPump,20ga.StoegerSxS,17hmr, 223Superlight, 357mag/Max,Marlin 336/30-30

Offline johnnybravoo77

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2012, 08:29:44 am »
Apparently the last bill died over winter break, new bill introduced on 1-17-12. It is HB5249, here's a link http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(wl4zw145ambzlx550umgwmf1))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2012-HB-5249&query=on
It does not change the current pistol regulations, just adds rifles using straight walled cartridges 1.16in to 1.80in in length.

Offline jedman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (25)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2012, 10:00:36 am »
  We have very similar issues here in Ohio.  During our deer gun season we are able to use shotguns .410 up to 10 ga. with a single ball, ( 3 shot max. ) Muzzleloaders 38 cal. and larger, and handguns using strait walled cartridges .357 and larger with a 5" bbl. length as minimum.
 As it stands now we cannot use any centerfire rifles of any kind for deer. .  BUT,  Its legal to hunt deer with a handgun chambered in 458 Winchester Magnum with a 30" barrel if you wanted to tote such a gun .
We can legally hunt squirrels with any cal. rifle, all centerfires included,  just think how safe that is shooting squirrels out of trees with a  30-06 or ?  but its legal.
  There is suppose to be a bill here in OH that would allow any caliber rifle using a strait walled cartridge now legal to use in a handgun to be legal in a rifle during our " gun season " but I doubt it will pass.  This past season there was a girl killed by a muzzleloader bullet that was fired from over a mile away by a hunter " cleaning his gun".  That kind of accident is rare but any hunter or shooter must think of rule # 1,  Assure that you have a reasonable backstop beyond what you are shooting at.
  Indiana is pretty much where you in the southern half of Michigan  and alot of Ohio hunters would like to be.
                                             Jedman
Current handi family,  M-48 12 ga.  M 48 20 ga. M 48 .410 ga. 50-70,45-70 trapdoor H & R,  45 smokeless MZ, 44 spl.,.401 meatmaster( 40 x .410 ), .375 H & R, .357 max, .340 MF ( wildcat ), 8 mm Lebel, .303 OB ( wildcat ), 280 rem., 270 x 57 R, .223 rem.

Offline Lon371

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (53)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2507
  • Gender: Male
  • Why Not a Handi?
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2012, 10:09:44 am »
I agree with jjvw, we don't need this, it will only lead to restrictions to my pistol huntig calibers.  I started hunting with an Encore pistol three years ago in zone 3 so I could get away from the shot gun.  I currently use a 15" barrel in .444 Marlin.  I don't want them coming up with new restrictions telling me I can't use it because the cartridge is too long.  I can use my Marlin lever gun in .444 up north but use my Encore down state (same cal. but legal because it's a pistol).  We will loose the ability to use straight walled rifle cartridges like .375 Win, .444 Marlin, 45/70 Govt.

Why would this change any handgun rules? Indiana did the same and it has not effected any other rules. It did get more people interrested.
 
Lonny

Offline Muddyboots

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 339
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2012, 06:56:09 pm »
Latest update. Bill has passed legislative hearings and headed to floor where it is expected to pass, hopefully in this session. There is still hope for this year hunting season so keep fingers crossed and no land mines to slow it down.
Muddy
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety." Ben Franklin

Offline omegahunter

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
  • Gender: Male
Re: Straight walled cartridges,HB5416
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2012, 06:17:51 am »
Good luck, Michigan.  We are loving our deer rifles in Indiana!

 

go2gbo.com Webutation