Author Topic: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?  (Read 4798 times)

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Offline jasonprox700

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I don't know if this has ever been done successfully, but I was wondering if anybody had ever converted their traditional muzzleloader from percussion caps to 209 primers?  I've had a few misfires using caps that have cost me critters (2 deer and 1 coyote).  Twice the powder was not ignited and once the cap did not fire (brand new package too).

As a safe guard, I unscrew the nipple and pour a few grains of powder in, then screw the nipple back in.  But this is a PIA!


Offline BUGEYE

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 02:00:02 pm »
I used cci caps for many years without a single mis-fire.
I don't really want a 209 primer going off close to my face in what I consider an open ignition system.
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Offline jasonprox700

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 02:14:34 pm »
Is it possible to drill out the nipple so that it is slightly larger and less restrictive?  Also, are there any "hotter" caps out there that a guy could use?

Also, I have only used CCI's also.

Offline Semisane

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 05:17:35 pm »
Quote
Is it possible to drill out the nipple so that it is slightly larger and less
restrictive?

I know it's counter-intuitive Jason, but a larger flash hole will give you poorer ignition, not better.  How old is your nipple?  An eroded flash hole will give you both ignition and accuracy problems.
 
Just about all ignition problems with a caplock can be traced  to a dirty channel between the bottom of the nipple and the bore.  You may have some caked powder in that channel.  If the bolster has a clean out screw remove it and scrape the channel with a piece of wire flattened on one end like a chisel.  If there's no clean out screw, remove the nipple and work a pipe cleaner liberally soaked with soapy water through the channel.  Then insert the tube of a spray can of carburetor or break cleaner in the nipple hole and give it a good blast.
 
 

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 05:32:49 pm »
They have: 8)
Mag-Spark   (Mag-Spark Dealers List)
209 shotshell primer nipple for caplocks (but not inlines). No more misfires, slowfires, or dangerous hangfires. Works in any weather with any propellant.
http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/pl-spark-start.html
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .22 LR Versa Pack, .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline smokehouserex

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 05:59:45 pm »
 
 
  Hello jasonprox700:
  I bought a navy arms hawkin hurricane hunter in 58 cal. I had so much trouble with it ftf. I replaced the musket nipple with a #11 nipple, problem remained, I got so tired of fooling with it I put it away for a few years then I bought a hot shot nipple for lg rifle primers. This solved the problem, I use LR magnum primers and no more misfires. The only thing is that you have to take the top off the nipple, remove the spent primer and put a fresh one in then put the top back on, kinda bothersome but you don't usually need more than one load of 120 gr of fff and a 425 gr. bullet to put the meat on the ground.
  I hope this helps, I don't know if you can still buy them but someone with a lathe can make one quite easily. I think iirc, they are called hotshot nipples.
  safety first
  HM

Offline smokehouserex

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 06:09:41 pm »
 
 
  jasonprox700:
 
 I apologize for not looking at tacklebury's post thoroughly before posting a response. The item that he posted appears to be the item that I was referring to, only by a different name. I bought mine about 25 years ago, and they do work.
  HM

Offline jasonprox700

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 07:44:43 pm »
They have: 8)
Mag-Spark   (Mag-Spark Dealers List)
209 shotshell primer nipple for caplocks (but not inlines). No more misfires, slowfires, or dangerous hangfires. Works in any weather with any propellant.
http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/pl-spark-start.html

Thanks!  I'll have to give that a look.  Might be right up my ally.

Offline mspaci

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 07:44:39 am »
it has been done, my friend shoots a cva bobcat & has a nipple that takes 209, it has a screw down cover that goes over it. Cant remember who made it? It works well for him.  He was having lots of misfires with 11`s. Mike

Offline mspaci

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 07:45:57 am »
just looked at the pic, thats the one. Mike

Offline Landngroove

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2011, 08:18:09 am »
Usually if a cap does not fire, there is a problem with the nipple (worn) or a misalignment with the hammer, and nipple. The hammer face may not be contacting the nipple/cap squarely. If you are using a substitute powder, and you have poor ignition, A musket cap should cure that problem. As always, dry the bore with patches, and fire off 2 or three caps, before loading.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2011, 12:30:26 pm »
Traditional muzzleloaders are as reliable as the operator. There is a long and continuous learning curve one must master to get reliable and accurate shooting from a traditional rifle. You seem to be looking for a crutch to get by without doing the work to make it right. Those devices to use rifle and shotgun primers instead of the correct percussion cap have been on the market for at least 50 years that I know of but I have never seen one on a rifle because they really aren't needed if one will just clean the rifle properly and load it properly with genuine Black Powder. Caps must fit the nipple snugly but not so tight as to be difficult to seat them fully. If the cap is too tight the first hammer fall just seats it and it will need another drop to fire it. If the cap fires but the powder does not the problem is almost certainly in the flash channel, the small hole which connects the nipple to the powder chamber. Because it is of small diameter it is easily blocked by fouling. That must be cleaned thoroughly, run a pipe cleaner through there every time you clean, which should be as soon as possible after the gun has been fired. Clean with plain water, dry it out completely and don't get carried away with the oil, a little is plenty, you should not be using so much oil that it actually runs out if placed muzzle down on a paper.
 The "substitute" powders, like Pyrodex, add additional problems. The very reason those powders were produced is because they are harder to ignite than black powder. In theory that makes them safer to ship and to store but it also makes them harder to ignite in the gun. Still, one can do OK with Pyrodex if they will just properly clean the gun, paying attention to the flash channel.
 It's always better to "fix the problem" than to go to some backward extreme to try to force it to work despite the problem. Ask any knowledgeable shooter when he last had a misfire with his traditional sidelock percussion rifle and he'll probably say "so long ago I can't remember".
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline Jim_Ole_Timer

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2011, 07:00:40 pm »
Thanks for the information you gave us CoyoteJoe. Sounds real good. Does anything like Carb cleaner help get the carbon out? Or is best to use only plain water as you said?
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 04:50:56 am »
Yes a good cleaning of the flash channel is first and foremost. Also have you considered using a musket cap? You need to change out your #11 nipple for a musket cap nipple. A lot hotter than the #11 cap. Also using black powder instead of BP subs will work better.
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Offline flintlock

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 05:01:41 am »
As mentioned, clean the flash channel, use real black powder and before firing make sure all the grease and oil are cleaned out of the gun...
 
There's a learning curve with these guns, that's why they are so much fun...

Offline tomme boy

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 12:26:12 pm »
After dumping the powder, lift the gun up and smack the breech end a few times with your palm. That get powder into the channel. If you do this it will go off every time. If I do not do this, mine sometimes will have hang fires. Also the mark on the ramrod is about 1/4" higher on my ram rod if I do not do this.
 
You do not need the 209's. They actually have too much power. They can unseat the projectile before the powder can fully ignite and cause bad accuracy. That was why they came out with low power 209 primers.

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 06:28:42 pm »
After dumping the powder, lift the gun up and smack the breech end a few times with your palm. That get powder into the channel. If you do this it will go off every time. If I do not do this, mine sometimes will have hang fires. Also the mark on the ramrod is about 1/4" higher on my ram rod if I do not do this.
 
You do not need the 209's. They actually have too much power. They can unseat the projectile before the powder can fully ignite and cause bad accuracy. That was why they came out with low power 209 primers.
There are actually 209's made by federal, tc, winchester etc. that are made for muzzle loading and don't pre-push the loads.  They are hotter, water resistent and more consistent than percussion caps.  Thus if anyone desires these properties, this can be a positive.  ;)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .22 LR Versa Pack, .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.


Offline ceadersavage2

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Re: Anybody Ever Convert a Traditional ML from Percussion Caps to 209 Primers?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 06:28:57 pm »
Yes the mag spark works its a 209 primmer much like the old accra shot which use a rifle primmer have both an they work plus the fack you can buy 209s with out the primmer in them an put a riflr primmer in they work also