Author Topic: savage 10 ML smokeless loads  (Read 2087 times)

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Offline rangerwillie

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savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« on: August 19, 2009, 11:16:02 am »
 Does anyone shoot anything heaver than 250-300 gr sabbot loads?  I would like to use 435 gr (458) lead bullets with 4577.
Any input from smokless shooters. dan


Offline moto357

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2009, 04:31:38 pm »
you mean 5744? :o

Offline rangerwillie

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2009, 04:46:03 pm »
oops, yes I do mean 5744

Offline simonkenton

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2009, 05:07:29 pm »
Why do you want to shoot such giant slugs? What will you be hunting?

By and large the guys have not had success with all lead slugs in the Savage. They tend to obdurate during firing.
Some of the guys have been shooting all-lead slugs with a slow powder such as 5744, you would probably want to go below 40 grains.
What I am saying is, the Savage is capable of astounding performance. I am cranking out 3,200 foot pounds, some of the guys go way higher than that.
You have to "de-tune" the rifle in an attempt to shoot the all lead slugs, and you limit how much power you can develop.
However, you can take just about any game on the continent with the 300 XTP, which are cheap, and accurate.
Also lots of the guys are having good success with the Barnes bullets, solid copper. The Barnes bullets are expensive.
Aim small don't miss.

Offline rangerwillie

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 06:31:26 pm »
I hunt regular gun season with a 45-70. My bullet of choice is a 405 JSP. This year my son got me a 435CG mold and it preforms rather well. So I cast a few in pure lead and no gas check and with a MMP orange sabot and 39 gr 5744. I held a 4" group at 80 yards, recoil was mild. I am going to try again with different weigh of powder and a crony if accuracy is acceptable. Velocity is not a concern.


                  dan

Offline simonkenton

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2009, 04:26:56 am »
You might try backing down on that powder charge and see if you can get better accuracy.
I believe you are having problems with the bullet obdurating with that powder charge, thus your accuracy problems.
That Savage is a very accurate rifle with the right load. I was getting 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 right out of the box. For the guys who really work at it, groups of 1 inch and better are common.

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Online Cheesehead

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2009, 06:06:30 am »
Savage does NOT recommend using bullets over 300 grain per the owners manual.

Cheese
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Offline yooper77

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2009, 08:03:06 am »
What if you used real black powder or true black powder substitute, then would you be able to use heavy bullets?

I am sure the reasoning behind Savage only allowing up to 300 grain bullet is because the smokeless (non-black powder substitute) powder would give too high pressures.

yooper77

Offline simonkenton

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2009, 09:57:12 am »
Savage does recommend using bullets over 300 grain per the owners manual.

Cheese

My Savage owner's manual gives loads for the 250 XTP and the 300 XTP. It has no recommended loads for bullets over 300 grains.
But, that doesn't mean you can't shoot 'em.

rangerwillie: Since you are not trying to max out the performance of this rifle, you may be on to something with these giant lead slugs.
I bet that if you went down to 35, and maybe 32 grains of 5744, you might get pretty good accuracy.
As you know, when you use a bigger bullet with the same powder charge, you get more foot pounds of energy.
So, even with a reduced powder charge of 35 gr 5744, you would still be cranking out some serious energy with that giant slug, I bet you would close to 2,500 foot pounds.
There is no animal on the North American continent that could take a lung shot with that load.
 

yooper: You are right, you can use bp or pyrodex and shoot heavy lead slugs all day.
The problem is not necessarily increased pressure, in that, the increased pressure does not pose a problem for the integrity of the rifle, it was designed around the 300 XTP.  Guys have tried the 300 gr. lead slugs, with a strong smokeless charge, say 43 grains of Vihtavouri N110, and gotten nowhere.
The problem is that there is so much presssure with the big charge of smokeless, that the slug obdurates, that is, when the powder goes off, the slug bulges in the middle. Bad for ignition and accuracy.
The Savage is designed for jacketed bullets, the hard copper jacket holds the slug firm when the powder ignites.

5744 is one of the mildest powders used in the Savage and I have heard of guys dropping the charge and successfully shooting the big lead slugs.
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Offline rangerwillie

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2009, 12:42:30 pm »
Thanks for all the input. I agree with all of you about cutting back on the charge wt. Hopefully this week end I can go out and try a little more. I'm trying to base all my charge wts against the 45-70 (level 1- thru level 3 ) with the same bullet weight. so its off to the range with powder and scales. I will keep you posted. dan

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2009, 12:47:27 pm »
you might paper patch that big old lead bullet to slow leading of the bbl if ya want to get mo speed .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline rangerwillie

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2009, 06:27:54 pm »
I am using the orange MMP sabot. The bullet mics at .459 . leading wont be a problem  dan

Offline matthewquigley

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2009, 08:30:41 am »
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)



ok if ya wanna do this    you will need acccurate arms 2015 powder     and i will refer you to dougs savage ml board a fine guy there has shot all kinds of combos in a savage up to 500 grain bullets    as i did also  i was shooting a 45 cal 375 grain lead boattail spitzer from buffalo bullets
 I had to use the supplied sabot and an mmp magnum subbase or a 28 gauge shotgun wad with just the base cup(that was before mmp made subbases) i will not list my charge here but it was 2300 fps  and absoloutely BRUTAL in recoil ( i have a 8 pound 375 H&H it kisc like an mule too)  i have shot 250,300 xtps,  250 and 300 barnes MZ  and varied others   they all will (except 250 xtp) kill anything afoot in north america!    but i went to 300 barnes   and 44 grains of 5744    kills deer from 20 feet to 340 plus`yards  easy  simple   but you can shoot heavy and get beat up if ya need to
M. Quigley
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H&R 223,25-06,308, 44,357    700VTR 308,  Ruger 77/44, Savage ML10

Offline simonkenton

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2009, 11:17:28 am »
A 375 grain bullet at 2,300 fps!
You must have a cast iron shoulder.

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Offline matthewquigley

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2009, 08:31:51 pm »
well  i will say it killed deer in the sweet spot   like a lightning strike!!!!!!!!!!! but so did every load combo i tried :o  but i want a pass thru and the barnes will do it @ any   and I do mean ANY angle
M. Quigley
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H&R 223,25-06,308, 44,357    700VTR 308,  Ruger 77/44, Savage ML10

Offline rangerwillie

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2009, 06:21:22 pm »
well, I did work up a load that is comfortable to shoot. I used 39 gr of 5744, orange MMP sabot with a lead 435 gr cast bullet.
 It croneyed 1250 FPS ( 10 ft from muzzle) for 70 yds. It droped 4 in at 100 yds but still had four bullet holes touching. I went to the range again today toblast a few more but found it to be very quite with the bullet bag taking a nap on the couch. So tomorrow after work I'll make sure the bullet bag is in the truck.  More tomorrow. dan

Offline simonkenton

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2009, 07:12:59 pm »
Four holes touching at 100, now that is more like it!!
A 435 gr bullet at 1250 fps, you have a serious hunting load there. I bet the recoil is not too bad, either.
Good deal!
Aim small don't miss.

Offline rangerwillie

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2009, 05:00:49 pm »
I went shooting again tonite. I droped back to 70 yd range, I put five holes touching and on the next target I put three holes touching. No fliers
I'm done touching the scope, I'm ready for hunting season.
 Randy Wakeman is very adamant that I dont use any thing over a 300 gr bullet.
 I did manage to dig three slugs from the bank, almost totaly unreconizeable.  Thanks for the support.  dan

Offline simonkenton

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2009, 06:54:12 pm »
I know Randy as an internet pal, have emailed back and forth with him a dozen times.
He is pretty smart, he certainly knows more about muzzleloaders than I do,  but, sometimes he is a bit dogmatic and argumentative.

Looks like you are right and Randy is wrong.
Don't tell him I said that, he will come over here and argue with me.

I wish somebody would post the foot pounds at the muzzle of that load, I bet it is a real deer slayer.
In fact I am sure it is, I have killed all kinds of deer and hogs, ranges 30 to 80 yards, with a .490 round ball.
It is 174 grains and leaves the muzzle at about 1,400 foot pounds, and the energy of the round ball drops off real fast. That monster slug you are shooting will carry serious energy down range.
I bet you are at 2,200 foot pounds.
Aim small don't miss.

Offline rangerwillie

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2009, 04:42:03 pm »
I do like this combo of smokeless and a reaitivey heavy slug. Like modern rifle with grandpas bullets.  I stayed with 70 yard range becouse there is still a lot of leaves on the under brush and I hunt a lot of swamps. So visibilty is limited. If I want a longer shot I would have to be on the road, The local wardens frown on that. Speed is not something I consider important, During regular season I hunt with a 45-70 ( same bullet as I'm using in the muzzel loader), at 1400 fps or a 12 gage.
  This 10 ml is the most accurate gun I have shot in a long time.  I think I'll keep it. dan
  I'm not saying randy is wrong, he was just staying with savage recomendations

Offline simonkenton

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2009, 05:48:23 pm »
You are now getting great accuracy, with the same load that a few weeks ago was giving terrible accuracy.
What changed?

Yes the Savage is an accurate rifle. I shot a squirrel at 40 yards, offhand, nailed him right in the middle of the back, with a load that had been setting in the Savage for 10 months!

I am not a squirrel sadist, the dumb tree rat had been chewing the dovetail notches of my log house, I had run him off 5 times, he wouldn't quit.

The Savage is the most accurate rifle I have ever owned.
Aim small don't miss.

Offline rangerwillie

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2009, 06:30:28 pm »
I have thought  and thought about my bad grouping from last week to this week. well, the best I can come up with is operator error.
 I have put about 40 rounds through it, on three range sessions, so maybe I just got comftorable with the gun, you know, the bonding thing. I plan on going out late sunday, I'll let you know. dan

Offline simonkenton

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2009, 06:58:56 am »
How long are you waiting between shots?
I hadn't even thought of asking that, you have to wait fifteen minutes between shots for the barrel to cool.
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Offline rangerwillie

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2009, 10:47:59 am »
No, no waiting. I shoot and reload, But only 5 shots than wait about 15 min and repeat the session.

Offline simonkenton

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Re: savage 10 ML smokeless loads
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2009, 05:26:24 pm »
You are shooting a reduced load, you may be able to get away without a 15 minute wait.
With a normal Savage charge such as I shoot, a 250 gr slug at 2,300 fps, it is mandatory to wait 15 minutes between shots for the barrel to cool. Otherwise you will blow the sabot and accuracy goes to hell.

That is the only thing I dislike about the Savage, I am not a patient man.

Aim small don't miss.