Author Topic: XTP sabots vs conicals  (Read 914 times)

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Offline gregg wilkes

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« on: May 14, 2004, 05:57:47 am »
I am the proud owner of a new Encore 209 x 50.  In the course of reading the manual I came to the section on load recipes and then the section on exterior ballistics.  Looking over the ballistic tables at first glance the sabot looks to be a superior projectile over the conical.  But then I recall how many times I have heard that sabots cannot be driven to those maximum velocities achieved with 150 gns of Pyrodex or Triple7. So with this in mind I take another look at the ballistic tables...  My manual lists a 350-370 lead conical driven with 150 gns of pyrodex has 1072 lbs of energy remaining at 150 yards.  With a 100 yard zero this bullet lists 4.6 inches of drop at 150 yards.  Looking at the tables for a sabot with a similar trajectory I find the 275 grain XTP loaded with 100 gns of pyrodex(which sounded to me like a realistic max load without sacrificing accuracy) the 275 XTP has a listed 1014 lbs of remaining energy at 150 yards.  With a 100 yard zero that bullet has a listed 5.7 inches of drop.
  Although I would opt for a sabot more weight for hunting, the example I gave was a bullet that had a similar trajectory as the conical.  I understand that there are high BC sabots available like the PR bullet..Dead Center, but my point is for the guy that doesn't want to spend the extra cash to buy a dozen bullets with their mated sabots, he may be better off to purchase a conical mold rather than buying a bulk package of sabots and using low ballistic coefficient pistol bullets.

Graybeard Outdoors

XTP sabots vs conicals
« on: May 14, 2004, 05:57:47 am »

Offline grouse

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2004, 06:35:45 am »
348grn powerbelts shoot very well in my Encore. (connicals)

I buy far, favor the 220grn DeadCenter, and the 300grn .44cal. DeadCenter. 8)

Offline Vapour

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2004, 06:47:31 am »
220 grain dead centers have been great performers in my 209X50.  Sub-MOA performance.

Offline RandyWakeman

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Re: XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2004, 06:52:11 am »
Quote from: gregg wilkes
But then I recall how many times I have heard that sabots cannot be driven to those maximum velocities achieved with 150 gns of Pyrodex or Triple7.


Nor can conicals.

Offline gregg wilkes

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2004, 07:01:31 am »
Does accuracy fall off around the same MV for sabots and conicals?

Offline Wolfhound

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Re: XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2004, 07:03:53 am »
Quote from: gregg wilkes
My manual lists a 350-370 lead conical driven with 150 gns of pyrodex has 1072 lbs of energy remaining at 150 yards.  With a 100 yard zero this bullet lists 4.6 inches of drop at 150 yards.


Your Encore manual is a little different than my Omega one. Mine does not show the downrange ballistics. I do have a couple of points to make though.

1. A 350/370 gr conical kicks like a mule even with lighter charges.

2. A concial with a muzzle velocity over 1300 (I think that's the number) will seriously lead the bore. My manual shows a 1661 fps M.V. for that load. You would have to clean (not swab, CLEAN) your barrel after every shot.

Offline RandyWakeman

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2004, 07:15:21 am »
Quote from: gregg wilkes
Does accuracy fall off around the same MV for sabots and conicals?


Like Wolfhound mentioned, the effective limit for pure lead lubed conicals is 1400 - 1425 fps or so. So, the answer would be no-- as 2100 fps is easy to find with a 220 gr. Dead Center for example, with accuracy.

Offline gregg wilkes

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2004, 07:22:59 am »
Thanks gentlemen.  You have saved me time and money from going down the conical road.
 Now I will continue to pursue making my own high BC bullet mold to be shot out of sabots.  I am considering the .429 caliber because a long ogive would flatten out and bend less on firing than a smaller caliber.

Offline RandyWakeman

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2004, 07:29:05 am »
Quote from: gregg wilkes
I am considering the .429 caliber because a long ogive would flatten out and bend less on firing than a smaller caliber.


Not sure where you got that idea (noses don't flatten) -- if you are going to mold, you might want to get some of the blue .40 / 50 sabots from MMP -- and look for a 210 - 220 gr. .40 caliber mold.

Offline gregg wilkes

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2004, 07:49:19 am »
That's what I'll do then.  I'll start out with a 40 cal mold.  

note* I was talking about a trying to make a 7 caliber tangent pure lead rifle bullet in a .357 diameter.  A bullet like that looks like a spitzer point bullet you would shoot from a centerfire rifle.  I was thinking that the long thin nose may become mishaped or even bent upon firing.  I was all set to make that bullet mold and I read where lead bullets will mishape upon firing, that's why I thought  would go with a larger caliber like .40 or .429.  I appreciate everyones comments, I am somewhat new to the blackpowder world, my experience is in the centerfire benchrest and benchrest bullet swaging.  thanks again.

Offline RandyWakeman

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2004, 08:00:07 am »
Hello Gregg,

If you are set to swage, that's the way to go. I'd certainly call MMP to get the optimum bullet diameters. You have a very large selection-- and the .458 / 50 MMP sabots are updated polymer and in stock. Del Ramsey can probably save you a lot of time.

Offline Roger_Dailey

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XTP sabots vs conicals
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2004, 02:23:43 pm »
Quote from: gregg wilkes
....  A bullet like that looks like a spitzer point bullet you would shoot from a centerfire rifle.  I was thinking that the long thin nose may become mishaped or even bent upon firing.  I was all set to make that bullet mold and I read where lead bullets will mishape upon firing.


I believe the slug gun shooters at Friendship call that nose deformation "slumping".  One solution is a two piece bullet.  The base is cast of soft material, the nose cast of harder material to lessen the deformation during the firing cycle.