Author Topic: Quotes by John Calvin  (Read 1795 times)

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Offline Swampman

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2009, 04:52:53 am »
Anyone who believes in free will, makes themselves greater than God.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2009, 04:52:53 am »

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2009, 05:31:57 am »
As I'm learning more about John Calvin's life it is becoming more clear that he had a very high view of God and a very low view of himself.
The following quote is in relation to the communion service and gives an idea of the humility with which he approached God.

Therefore, the best and only worthiness that we can present to God is to offer him our vileness and unworthiness, that he may make us worthy of his mercy; to despair in ourselves that we may find consolation in him; to humble ourselves that we may be exalted by him; to accuse ourselves that we may be justified by him.
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Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2009, 08:20:32 pm »
Bob
That, of course, is your opinion.
Our reality is not God's reality. His will is greater than our will and He does impose His will over our will.
Blessings
Nope your rhetoric has you speaking the mind of God, just as Job did.
Words mean things and your rhetoric is quite clear that you are saing how and why.
As I said, some of your reponses remind me of Swamp, ignore the bible and rely on your own dogma.

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2009, 08:23:51 pm »
Anyone who believes in free will, makes themselves greater than God.
Your statement is vacuous and takes puts all blame for anything on God, removing his glory.
Anyone who believes in free will speaks and accepts the glory and grace of God.
He forces nothing, but if you take his gift, he holds no grudges for past sins because he wipes them from having ever existed.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2009, 03:21:31 am »
Bob
It is clear/has been clear/ will always be clear, that you value your opinions over anybodys, wheather or not there is proofs or arguements and makes your opinions vacous in themself. It is difficult to believe that you cannot see and identify yourownself in the same boat with Swamp.
Ideas from scripture require more that Ideas from the mind. Answers to these questions, from scripture, require more than makeing a statement in which you are the second person too know what you have said.
Arminius and Calvin saw questions and they sought answers. IMO, Calvin saught the answers from scripture, wheather or not you agree with his conclusions is immaterial.
Arminius, by his own admission, saught answers by conclusions reached out of logical thought. the magic of the mind, ignor the scriptures, what should they have said.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Swampman

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2009, 03:45:32 am »
Anyone who believes in predestination speaks and accepts the glory and grace of God.

Predestination is grace!
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2009, 10:07:30 am »
Bob
It is clear/has been clear/ will always be clear, that you value your opinions over anybodys, wheather or not there is proofs or arguements and makes your opinions vacous in themself. It is difficult to believe that you cannot see and identify yourownself in the same boat with Swamp.
Ideas from scripture require more that Ideas from the mind. Answers to these questions, from scripture, require more than makeing a statement in which you are the second person too know what you have said.
Arminius and Calvin saw questions and they sought answers. IMO, Calvin saught the answers from scripture, wheather or not you agree with his conclusions is immaterial.
Arminius, by his own admission, saught answers by conclusions reached out of logical thought. the magic of the mind, ignor the scriptures, what should they have said.
Blessings

I have quoted much scripture in context, for proof, you have produced none; you quote man, and mam alone; therefore at the least you are lying.

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2009, 10:09:51 am »
Anyone who believes in predestination speaks and accepts the glory and grace of God.

Predestination is grace!
By your dogma it makes no difference to believe or not belive. One is either damned or not damned solely on God's whim, therefore your rhentoric is pointless and actually a bit foolish.


Offline Swampman

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2009, 10:33:46 am »
Romans 9
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2009, 11:06:59 am »
Gentlemen,

I can't see what Bob Riebe is writing but it would appear that this is going toward the constant argument that he and Swampman battle out based on Swampmans statements.

This thread wasn't started as a place to look at quotes of Calvin from a book I'm reading.  I thought that it would be interesting for all to read some of what the man wrote in order to get a bit of a glimpse at who he was.

Please, don't drag this tread down that path. 

If you guys want to hack at each other maybe we can start a thread for you to bash away.  Maybe we could even start a subforum for keyboard combat, whatever, please, not here.
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Sic semper tyrannis

"...and Heaven have mercy on us all - Presbyterians and Pagans alike - for we are all dreadfully cracked about the head and desperately in need of mending." - Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Swampman

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2009, 11:13:06 am »
All my factual statements have been with love, kindness, & used Biblical quotes for backing.  I do not argue or bash.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2009, 11:19:43 am »
Romans 9
Does not say what you think it says.

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2009, 11:21:17 am »
Gentlemen,

I can't see what Bob Riebe is writing but it would appear that this is going toward the constant argument that he and Swampman battle out based on Swampmans statements.

This thread wasn't started as a place to look at quotes of Calvin from a book I'm reading.  I thought that it would be interesting for all to read some of what the man wrote in order to get a bit of a glimpse at who he was.

Please, don't drag this tread down that path. 

If you guys want to hack at each other maybe we can start a thread for you to bash away.  Maybe we could even start a subforum for keyboard combat, whatever, please, not here.
Context, context, context.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2009, 03:21:42 pm »
Your opinion of the context.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2009, 07:28:13 pm »
Your opinion of the context.
Blessings
Context can have no opinion, and to say it does makes one sound semi-literate but without context one cannot claim any defninte opinion, except a half-truth is still a lie.
What little boatman quoted was not enought to defend predestination or condemn Calvin for preaching it.
It was out of context.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2009, 02:49:04 am »
The entire Bible & Jesus Christ for teaching it are not.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2009, 03:13:58 am »
Bob
While I agree with you that this one short statement is short of full explanation, is it not enough for you too see the thought and the reasoning behind the thought.
The thought is not complex.
The context of Romans 9 is the question.
That was the point of your Context disagreement.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline ironglow

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2009, 04:08:38 am »
LC;
  Just a short interjection here, and I'll leave. Your reply #15..on James 3:28.. First off, my Bible doesn't have any James 3:28..or are we still dwelling on Calvin's comments on Romans?
 Of course, I don't take Calvin's (or Arminius, Luther, Ironsides or any other man) as Bible..but I must question the view expressed, apparently by Calvin, which says a Christian must "prove" his faith by works.
   Who must he "prove" it to? God already knows every thought and intent of our heart, even before we speak or act! true, one can "demonstrate" his faith (to men) by his works..but then, sometimes unregenerate, spiritually dead men do good works..

  Beyond that, this discussion seems relevant only to those who would debate how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin.
  I would elevate no man too high. as in the familiar hymn, "Stand up for Jesus" a line says "the arm of flesh will fail you"..How often we have seen that !
 
   
" Truth is 'hate' to those who hate the truth" ..J Matt Barber)

Offline Oldtimer

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2009, 05:30:35 am »
Bob, I find it curious that you are arguing for free will.  It was certainly not Luther's position, as he amply showed in his Bondage of the Will.  In this case, Swamp, as he said in an earlier post, is more Lutheran than you. 

As for IG's point about proof, the word has two meanings.  When a rifle barrel goes through proof, it is tested to see if it will stand the strain of use.  I think this is the way Calvin was using the term, not in the sense that it confirmed that a person had Christian faith. 

Offline ironglow

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2009, 06:11:37 am »
  I do wish to affirm that post above is IMO and I realize that others can , and do differ..
" Truth is 'hate' to those who hate the truth" ..J Matt Barber)

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2009, 08:25:07 am »
quote author=williamlayton link=topic=173288.msg1098822852#msg1098822852 date=1243332838]
Bob
While I agree with you that this one short statement is short of full explanation, is it not enough for you too see the thought and the reasoning behind the thought.-- This is about what the creator of a dogma actually preaches, and what God's word in the Bible says. Close is not good enough, truth is truth. Half-truths as contained in a false doctirne are damning lies.

The thought is not complex. No what you want it to say is not complex to you, regardless of whether or not it is truth

The context of Romans 9 is the question.-- In this area Calvin is the question; Swamp merely threw Romans in as the base for the false doctrine he believes.

That was the point of your Context disagreement.-- No I said little boatman offered neither enough to prove or disprove what Calvin was. You are the one that said close was good enough.

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2009, 08:39:57 am »
Bob, I find it curious that you are arguing for free will.  It was certainly not Luther's position, as he amply showed in his Bondage of the Will.  In this case, Swamp, as he said in an earlier post, is more Lutheran than you. 

As for IG's point about proof, the word has two meanings.  When a rifle barrel goes through proof, it is tested to see if it will stand the strain of use.  I think this is the way Calvin was using the term, not in the sense that it confirmed that a person had Christian faith. 

I was taught from the get-go that the only one that can send you to hell is you, and the only one thing that can save you is faith in Jesus
Pray without ceasing .or as close as you can get. He is always listening, you screw up, ask for forgiveness, move on, but do not crap on the one who saved you. You may live your life however you choose but God makes sure stupidity has just rewards.-
As my parents would say come back-hand to the head time, "He did not know any better, you DO."

PROOF TESTING-- a barrel, or firearm, is done to PROVE that is will MEET certain minimum standars.
A PROOF round is a hot round, but no hotter than the arm is expected to be able to fire without any problems.

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2009, 03:49:28 pm »
IG,

This thread was started to simply look at some of the quotes of Calvin. 
He gets a bum deal in the thinking of many when few have read any of what he has written.
As you stated, Calvin was a man.  While I agree with Calvin, Piper, Luther, MacArthur, Arzurdia and many others
on issues of doctrine I don't follow them.

It was never my intention to begin yet another thread on Election, Reprobation, dancing angles or pin heads.
I'm really frustrated that the thread has taken this tone when most threads posted over the last weeks seem
to end up going down this road.


I'll check the book.  I may have typed the wrong info on post #15.
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Sic semper tyrannis

"...and Heaven have mercy on us all - Presbyterians and Pagans alike - for we are all dreadfully cracked about the head and desperately in need of mending." - Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2009, 03:57:52 pm »
IG,

I checked the quote in the book and the it is as you stated, from the commentary on Romans 3:28.
It is typed with "(James)" to emphasize the contrast of what Paul and James were saying.

I believe that OT, was correct in the differentiation that Calvin was making in the contextual meaning of the word prove.
An example would be a fancy gun that looked like a bench rifle.  It may or may not be a bench rifle in practicality until
it was tested and proved it's accuracy, ie, it was what it was said to be. 
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Sic semper tyrannis

"...and Heaven have mercy on us all - Presbyterians and Pagans alike - for we are all dreadfully cracked about the head and desperately in need of mending." - Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2009, 02:16:00 am »
Bob
I disagree. Swamp referred you to romans 9 and you said it did not say what he said it did and you threw out the usual suspects--context, context, context.
If it does not say what is claimed, in context, then you have need to show what your thoughts of the context are.
I, sincerely, doubt that you can do that.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Oldtimer

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2009, 04:54:26 am »
I find the simplest messages the most difficult to comprehend.  We have the sense that there must be more to it than this.  Consider Naaman when Elijah tells him to bathe in the Jordan.  I can imagine the internal dialog being something likke, "My king sends me with gifts to this dried up patch of ground.  The guy does not even come out to see me face to face.  And now I am told to bathe.  I could have done that at home, and in better water, too." 

Conversely, the simplest thoughts are often really difficult to put into words.  A man in my community wanted to leave his church $500,000 when he died.  He meant it to be used for the work of the church.   He wrote his own will and the courts took his meaing to be that he wanted to have the money used for the upkeep of his grave, and that alone.  So now this church has the half million, and cannot even use the interest on the money for anything but keeping up that man's grave.  He must spinning in it now, for that would have been the last way he wanted his gift to be used.

When we read Calvin, Luther, Wesley, or others, we must keep in mind that what they are writing may be the distillation of years of struggle and we are only privy to the end of the conversation.

Blessings from God's Country in South Carolina.

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2009, 10:53:34 am »
Quote
author=williamlayton link=topic=173288.msg1098823526#msg1098823526 date=1243415760]
Bob
I disagree. Swamp referred you to romans 9 and you said it did not say what he said it did and you threw out the usual suspects--context, context, context.
If it does not say what is claimed, in context, then you have need to show what your thoughts of the context are.
I, sincerely, doubt that you can do that.
Blessings

Here is the thread I put context to, get new glasses.
 Re: Quotes by John Calvin
Reply #42 on: May 25, 2009, 02:21:17 PM Quote Modify 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: littlecanoe on May 25, 2009, 02:06:59 PM
Gentlemen,

I can't see what Bob Riebe is writing but it would appear that this is going toward the constant argument that he and Swampman battle out based on Swampmans statements.

This thread wasn't started as a place to look at quotes of Calvin from a book I'm reading.  I thought that it would be interesting for all to read some of what the man wrote in order to get a bit of a glimpse at who he was.

Please, don't drag this tread down that path. 

If you guys want to hack at each other maybe we can start a thread for you to bash away.  Maybe we could even start a subforum for keyboard combat, whatever, please, not here.
-------------------
Context, context, context.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2009, 02:16:40 pm »
I agree Bob.  You should use some scripture.....in context.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline ironglow

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2009, 03:36:21 pm »
Olodtimer;
  The confusion of Naaman must have been akin to the confusion of Nicodemus (John 3:1-7) when Jesus told him personally, that a man must be "born again"..or he's facing a dead end..

  Oh Boy ! Did I open a can of worms ?  ;) :D ;D
" Truth is 'hate' to those who hate the truth" ..J Matt Barber)

Offline Bob Riebe

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Re: Quotes by John Calvin
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2009, 03:56:28 pm »
I agree Bob.  You should use some scripture.....in context.
In a section that is about Calvin's writings, a rather obtuse rhetorcal request.

Of course as your request comes  from a person who rejects scripture as irrelevant because it proves you wrong, such a rhetorical level is expected.

 

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