Author Topic: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?  (Read 9524 times)

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Offline Minnesota1

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Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« on: June 30, 2008, 08:25:14 am »
It looks like I am going to be in an area where I can only hunt deer, with a pistol, with a straight walled case.  Right now I hunt them with either my 7-30 waters or my 358 JDJ.  Can anyone recommend which case would be the best for deer hunting.  I would imagine the furthest shots would be 100-125 yards with it.  Anyway, it will be with a pistol so any help and input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob

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Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« on: June 30, 2008, 08:25:14 am »

Offline Catfish

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 10:08:48 am »
I took 4 deer in 3 years with a .357 max. With the 180 gr. Hornady XTP you should have no trouble. If your wanting more there is the .444 Marlin or you could use a .405 Win., Teddy Rosevelt`s favorite round. You could even use the .45-70 if you want. If you use the .357 max. eather the Hornady 158 gr. or the Sierra 170 gr. bullets do a great job through the ribs but both fail on heavy bone.

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2008, 10:17:15 am »
357 max or the 375 Winchester should do the trick. Good luck, Dave
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2008, 12:59:13 pm »
Just to make certain, what does "straight-walled case" legally mean?  Technically, the .45-70, .405 WCF and .375 WCF are not straight-walled - their cases have slight tapers.  If tapered casses are not allowed, then you have a bunch of potentials, including the .357, .41 and .44 Magnums, the .45 LC - or in the Encore the .454 Casull, the .460 S&W.....

If it were me and I didn't want to handload for a Contender, then the .357 Max, .41 Mag or .44 Mag would work just fine.

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Offline yooper77

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2008, 01:34:58 pm »
In the Contender, 44 Magnum

In the Encore, 44 Magnum or 454 Casull.

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Offline 7-30 Waters

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2008, 08:11:26 pm »
357 Maximum gets my vote.  205 RCBS lead bullet w/gc at 1850 fps is nothing to sneeze about.  Winchester 296 rocks in the 357 Maximum.

Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 01:02:15 am »
Several points:

1.  In some state(s) the handgun case must not only be straight walled but there is also a length restriction which excludes some cartridges.

2.  I wouldn't worry about a case like the 45-70 Gov. having a "slight taper."  By any official definition, it's straight walled.

I think cartridges like the 357 Mag., 357 Max., 44 Rem. Mag., 444 Marlin, etc. are all good chamberings for deer hunting.  For me though, the 460 S&W Magnum is the straight walled handgun cartridge of choice.  With it, in an accurate handgun, a 200 yard or a little bit longer shot is very doable.

Offline chiefs50

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 07:01:23 am »
As for me, in a Contender I love the old .45 Colt, especially if you handload.   Plenty good medicine for Whitetail at the ranges I encounter in da U.P.  Just my .02 worth.

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Offline handi243

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2008, 05:50:52 am »
357 max 0r the old standbye 44 mag both do great at around 100yrds i have both so can't pick a fav. but i reall like the max i use 180 gr xtp's in the max and 240 xtp's in the 44. Both group very well out at 100 yrds. My 44 has a 8 1/2" barrel and my max is a 10" the 44 is alittle more brutal on my hands.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2008, 08:28:17 am »
Several points:

1.  In some state(s) the handgun case must not only be straight walled but there is also a length restriction which excludes some cartridges.

2.  I wouldn't worry about a case like the 45-70 Gov. having a "slight taper."  By any official definition, it's straight walled.



Sorry to say, even by any official definition, the 45-70 is "not" straight walled. 
I know in Delaware the 45-70 is not considered a straight walled cartridge.
Lone Star is correct, it is considered a tapered cartridge.


Minnesota1, the 45 Colt, 44 Mag, 454 Casull and S&W 460 Mags would be a great choice. I do not know what plat form you are using, Encore/Contender. But in my opinion if long distance shooing is what you want to do, the S&W 460 Mag is well up for the task.
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Offline tred1956

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2008, 10:52:18 am »
41 Magnum gets the nod from me. ;)
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Offline Tobiano

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2008, 02:06:59 pm »

    I live in Ohio where we have that rule. The .44 magnum works fine, and I wouldn't hesitate to use a .41 magnum or .357 Maximum. Any of them beats the pants off using a shotgun with slugs as far as I'm concerned.

   Good luck !!

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Offline ourway77

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2008, 03:49:17 am »
Another thing to consider, Recoil. The 45-70 Kills at one end and Mames at the other end. 357 Max gets my vote as well, took a nice Buck with it, now shooting 460 with muzzle brake for deer. Lou
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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2008, 05:34:49 am »
Quote
Sorry to say, even by any official definition, the 45-70 is "not" straight walled.  I know in Delaware the 45-70 is not considered a straight walled cartridge.

Here is the definition of what are considered legal handgun cartridges for hunting in Delaware from their Division of Wildlife web site:

Quote
Legal handguns are limited to revolvers and single shot pistols with a minimum barrel length of 5.75 inches and a maximum length of 12.5 inches and chambered for and using straight-
wall handgun ammunition in .357, .41 caliber, .41 magnum, .44 caliber, .44 magnum, .45 caliber, .454 caliber, .480 caliber or .50 caliber and using open sights, metallic/mechanical, optical or telescopic sights.  Since the .460 casull is a .45 caliber, it is legal under the existing handgun legislation.

I'm going to try to get me a ".460 casull" that is a ".45 caliber."  According to their definition, a 38 Special would be a legal hunting handgun but I doubt they know that.  I believe there are some obscure and more gutless cartridges that would comply with their regs by their definition.  They also list a ".41 magnum" and a ".41 caliber" as legal weapons.  Then there is the ".44 caliber" and the ".44 magnum" so the 44 Special should be OK.  Then the geniuses go on to mention the ".45 caliber" and the ".454 caliber" handguns.  Whoever wrote this doesn't know their *** from a hole in the ground.  If you wish to go by the definition espoused by people that don't know the difference between bore diameter and cartridge for your definition of what is a straight walled cartridge, more power to you.

The 45-70, by the way, wouldn't be legal there since their is no "handgun ammunition" available for it.  Of course, if I have a 45-70 handgun and have ammunition for it couldn't I legitimately call it handgun ammunition?

According to the 7th Edition Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, "the 458 Winchester Magnum...is a straight-walled cartridge."  Now, if you compare the dimensions of the 45-70 Government cartridge to those of the 458 Winchester Magnum cartridge you will find that in the 45-70 the head of the case measures .504 inches and the mouth .480 inches.  In the 458 Win. Mag., the head of the case measures .513 inches and the mouth .481 inches.  Therefore, if the the 458 Win. Mag. is a straight-walled cartridge according to an official source that actually has a knowledge of firearms and cartridges, the 45-70 certainly is as well.  Straight-walled means the wall is straight without a shoulder as in a bottlenecked cartridge.

I'm still looking but haven't been able to find any cartridge data for the 460 casull.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2008, 01:18:25 pm »
Quote
Sorry to say, even by any official definition, the 45-70 is "not" straight walled.  I know in Delaware the 45-70 is not considered a straight walled cartridge.

Here is the definition of what are considered legal handgun cartridges for hunting in Delaware from their Division of Wildlife web site:

Quote
Legal handguns are limited to revolvers and single shot pistols with a minimum barrel length of 5.75 inches and a maximum length of 12.5 inches and chambered for and using straight-
wall handgun ammunition in .357, .41 caliber, .41 magnum, .44 caliber, .44 magnum, .45 caliber, .454 caliber, .480 caliber or .50 caliber and using open sights, metallic/mechanical, optical or telescopic sights.  Since the .460 casull is a .45 caliber, it is legal under the existing handgun legislation.

I'm going to try to get me a ".460 casull" that is a ".45 caliber."  According to their definition, a 38 Special would be a legal hunting handgun but I doubt they know that.  I believe there are some obscure and more gutless cartridges that would comply with their regs by their definition.  They also list a ".41 magnum" and a ".41 caliber" as legal weapons.  Then there is the ".44 caliber" and the ".44 magnum" so the 44 Special should be OK.  Then the geniuses go on to mention the ".45 caliber" and the ".454 caliber" handguns.  Whoever wrote this doesn't know their *** from a hole in the ground.  If you wish to go by the definition espoused by people that don't know the difference between bore diameter and cartridge for your definition of what is a straight walled cartridge, more power to you.

The 45-70, by the way, wouldn't be legal there since their is no "handgun ammunition" available for it.  Of course, if I have a 45-70 handgun and have ammunition for it couldn't I legitimately call it handgun ammunition?

According to the 7th Edition Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, "the 458 Winchester Magnum...is a straight-walled cartridge."  Now, if you compare the dimensions of the 45-70 Government cartridge to those of the 458 Winchester Magnum cartridge you will find that in the 45-70 the head of the case measures .504 inches and the mouth .480 inches.  In the 458 Win. Mag., the head of the case measures .513 inches and the mouth .481 inches.  Therefore, if the the 458 Win. Mag. is a straight-walled cartridge according to an official source that actually has a knowledge of firearms and cartridges, the 45-70 certainly is as well.  Straight-walled means the wall is straight without a shoulder as in a bottlenecked cartridge.

I'm still looking but haven't been able to find any cartridge data for the 460 casull.

You don't need to point out the Delaware law to me, I live here and know it well. Yes the guys in legislative hall don't know there butts from a hole in the wall. It was a misprint in the information and they know it is, because I brought it up in our advisory council meeting. We have been fighting with the legislators for some time now over the definitions they use in the books and there web-site.

A phone call from you to the Delaware DNR will make it clear that the 45-70 is not legal in Delaware. They do know a 45-70 is considered a tapered cartridge. That was my point, not all the other garbage you threw in.
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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2008, 02:01:07 pm »
My point was that the 45-70 is a straight walled cartridge.  You can call it tapered or whatever it's still straight walled.

Delaware can call it anything they like or define legal cartridges any way they like but the 45-70 is still a straight walled cartridge.

As for that stuff being a "misprint" then that whole paragraph was a misprint.  Truely a record for what is supposed to be an official document.  Delaware should be embarrased.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2008, 02:44:50 pm »
OK call it what you like.

You got a problem with how Delaware writes it's law's, take it up with them, I did not write it.  ::)
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2008, 03:03:58 pm »
Gee, and I thought that your original point was designed to put down my post - which was warning the OP about the potential legality issues of the .45-70 in a handgun. 
  ;)


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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2008, 03:49:23 pm »
Gee, and I thought that your original point was designed to put down my post - which was warning the OP about the potential legality issues of the .45-70 in a handgun. 
  ;)

OK.  I was wrong and I'll admit it.  I had no idea that an official source like Delaware, however misguided, wouldn't consider the 45-70 a straight walled case.  The fact remains; tapered or not, if you wish to call it that, it's still straight walled.  I guess I should have specified the the sources should be knowledgeable in things related to firearms which the writers of Delaware law apparently aren't.

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2008, 06:44:24 pm »
Gee, and I thought that your original point was designed to put down my post - which was warning the OP about the potential legality issues of the .45-70 in a handgun. 
  ;)

OK.  I was wrong and I'll admit it.  I had no idea that an official source like Delaware, however misguided, wouldn't consider the 45-70 a straight walled case.  The fact remains; tapered or not, if you wish to call it that, it's still straight walled.  I guess I should have specified the the sources should be knowledgeable in things related to firearms which the writers of Delaware law apparently aren't.


Take it up with them and move on..geessss ::)
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Offline kennisondan

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2008, 08:51:20 pm »
if the spirit and intent of the law is to limit it to Handgun cartridges; then I would not use any cartridge originally for a rifle but only originally chanbered as pistol cartridges... the local enforcement guys will not debate..they could ruin your hunt or your season.. LOL
that should be clear enough; so on with an opinion / answer :  I think that the suggestion of a 460 SW was a good one... a magnum  pistol cartridge of the larger variety would be fine for just over a hundred yards with the specialty hot factory or handloaded ammunition ... 44 would be the smallest I would go since the 357 is great for closer ranges but I would not suggest it for longer ranges to and over 100 yards... it may be that the enforcement guys would want the cartridge to be a factory pistol cartridge so I have no idea if the 445 super and 357 super mags fit that description... I do think that the 460 barrel with a muzzle tamer / brake of sorts would be a good choice especially since you are not uninitiated to recoiling handguns... I assume it is obvious but I will point it out that the 460 barrel will also handle 454 casull, and 45 colt.. I have a 460 and I look forward to sighting it in and hope to use it up to 120 yards -- if I am up to the task.. I do not doubt the cartridge will be up to it.. looking at the numbers on it.. it is quite a cartridge in the factory loadings suitable for deer...
I would not doubt the 45 colt with a stiff corbon or buffalo bore or garrett factory loading or any suitable handload : would scorch a deer to the distance you specified in your original post. Same with the 44 mag for specialty; most factory and handloads... with 240s or larger,----  and some will agree even really hot 180s of the right construction and loading.. that is just my two cents on the caliber and supplemental advice on the legalities... I would be sure my barrel length is still a pistol in thier definitions, and pick one within the regs plain meaning .. if the regs are more lenient -- then there are more choices...
 I would have the box marked pistol ammunition with me if my choice even seems to skirt the edge of the pond on the rules .. but these are good choices and all pistol cartridges... I would see if there are any opinions on required barrel length for utilizing the potential of the cartridge choice you do make, especially if you hand load... the 460 loading made for a normal length barrelled six holer should be fine, in your encore, though... if it is a contender, then 44 or 45 colt is the answer as I am not sure the contender will handle the 460 or 454 pressures which are really quite high.
Hope that helps..
dk

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2008, 09:22:37 am »
Will some one please enlighten me. What is a 460 Casull? Lou
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Offline yooper77

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2008, 09:51:41 am »
It’s not a 460 Casull, it’s a 460 S&W Magnum.
See this link.  http://www.sskindustries.com/460.htm

460 S&W Magnum barrel is capable of firing the 454 Casull, 45 Colt and 45 Scofield.

I have a 454 Casull Encore barrel and only shoot the Casull cartridge in it, because shooting a shorter cartridge can develop a ring that when you fire the longer cartridge the brass will flow into this ring and make case removal next to impossible.  If I need less energy then I simply download the Casull case.  My barrel started out as a 15” factory barrel that I had SSK industries cut down to 12” and have a T’SOB 6 screw base installed on it, this is very manageable and accurate.  Very capable of 200 yard shots, if I am able to use a rest.

The contender will not handle the 454 Casull or 460 S&W Magnum’s pressures.

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Offline EdK

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2008, 10:21:49 am »
In NH the F&G just lists the cartridges: 357mag/41mag/44mag/45 Colt/Ruger 480

All very standard with the exception of the 480. A little history: the latest revision of the law was 2001 - the same year Ruger (big employer in the state) introduced the 480. Big business/politics, etc., etc.

Like one of the previous posters said if the spirit of the law were to allow "real" handgun cartridges to limit range/be more sporting, then I think it is a good idea for a sportsman to follow along. If all you care about is power then get yourself a wildcat that exploits the full limits of the legal dimensions and then chamber it in an Encore @ 65Kpsi or so. I guess this is practically what a 460 is anyways isn't it?

Anyhow here in NH I'm thinking about just using an Encore 209x50 pistol with sabot in certain towns where limited to handgun cartridges (not my property/town). While not a 460, it is for all practical purposes the ballistic equivalent of a 454 Casull. Plus I can start 10 days before the guys with their 454s & 460s.

Offline yooper77

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2008, 11:50:00 am »
I agree, I to own a 209x50 Encore 15 pistol barrel also and when the firearm season ends for me I use it during the muzzleloader season.  I use heavy hard casted sabot bullets with 2 powder pellets with excellent accuracy and power.

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2008, 12:20:01 pm »
Will some one please enlighten me. What is a 460 Casull? Lou

It was a mis-print in the Delaware hunting reg's. It should of said the S&W 460 Mag.
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Offline 45Super

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2008, 05:47:34 pm »
I also live in a "Straight Walled State".  My favorite in my G2 is the .445 Super Mag.  300 gr. XTP`s  It`s a great deer stopper!!
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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2008, 12:27:27 am »
Quote
Sorry to say, even by any official definition, the 45-70 is "not" straight walled.  I know in Delaware the 45-70 is not considered a straight walled cartridge.

Here is the definition of what are considered legal handgun cartridges for hunting in Delaware from their Division of Wildlife web site:

Quote
Legal handguns are limited to revolvers and single shot pistols with a minimum barrel length of 5.75 inches and a maximum length of 12.5 inches and chambered for and using straight-
wall handgun ammunition in .357, .41 caliber, .41 magnum, .44 caliber, .44 magnum, .45 caliber, .454 caliber, .480 caliber or .50 caliber and using open sights, metallic/mechanical, optical or telescopic sights.  Since the .460 casull is a .45 caliber, it is legal under the existing handgun legislation.

I'm going to try to get me a ".460 casull" that is a ".45 caliber."  According to their definition, a 38 Special would be a legal hunting handgun but I doubt they know that.  I believe there are some obscure and more gutless cartridges that would comply with their regs by their definition.  They also list a ".41 magnum" and a ".41 caliber" as legal weapons.  Then there is the ".44 caliber" and the ".44 magnum" so the 44 Special should be OK.  Then the geniuses go on to mention the ".45 caliber" and the ".454 caliber" handguns.  Whoever wrote this doesn't know their *** from a hole in the ground.  If you wish to go by the definition espoused by people that don't know the difference between bore diameter and cartridge for your definition of what is a straight walled cartridge, more power to you.

The 45-70, by the way, wouldn't be legal there since their is no "handgun ammunition" available for it.  Of course, if I have a 45-70 handgun and have ammunition for it couldn't I legitimately call it handgun ammunition?

According to the 7th Edition Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, "the 458 Winchester Magnum...is a straight-walled cartridge."  Now, if you compare the dimensions of the 45-70 Government cartridge to those of the 458 Winchester Magnum cartridge you will find that in the 45-70 the head of the case measures .504 inches and the mouth .480 inches.  In the 458 Win. Mag., the head of the case measures .513 inches and the mouth .481 inches.  Therefore, if the the 458 Win. Mag. is a straight-walled cartridge according to an official source that actually has a knowledge of firearms and cartridges, the 45-70 certainly is as well.  Straight-walled means the wall is straight without a shoulder as in a bottlenecked cartridge.

I'm still looking but haven't been able to find any cartridge data for the 460 casull.


Let's see...  .44 caliber versus .44 Magnum that would be a bullet that is .44 versus .429 so there is a difference.  .45 caliber and .454 caliber have the same argument  .45 acp is .452 or .451 and .454 casull is .454, there is a difference.  People use everything from .451 to even .458 for some ".45 cal" revolvers.  Bore sizes do vary.  Likewise with the .41 caliber.  The .41 Magnum is specifically mentioned however, someone, somewhere has a wildcat straightwalled .41 caliber handgun that is NOT a .41 magnum. 

While the wording of the excerpt from the Delaware web site might seem funny to some, they are actually hedging their bets by not only including common chamberings such as the .44 Magnum and .41 Magnum but they are also including specific bore sizes as well to encompass any other cartridges that may be out there that use those bore sizes or that maybe be considered a ".44" or a ".45".  Yes, the .38 Special would be legal according to this definition but so would the .357 Magnum and the .357 Maximum and I'm sure a few other lesser known cartridges.  It would be interesting to see any further definitions as applied to energy levels.  When I lived in Maryland I think handgun cartridges had to develop at least 700 ft/lbs at the muzzle.  I would almost bet that Delaware has a similiar definition somewhere.

Later,
ngh
"I feared for my life!"

Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2008, 03:26:32 am »
While the wording of the excerpt from the Delaware web site might seem funny to some, they are actually hedging their bets by not only including common chamberings such as the .44 Magnum and .41 Magnum but they are also including specific bore sizes as well to encompass any other cartridges that may be out there that use those bore sizes or that maybe be considered a ".44" or a ".45".  Yes, the .38 Special would be legal according to this definition but so would the .357 Magnum and the .357 Maximum and I'm sure a few other lesser known cartridges.  It would be interesting to see any further definitions as applied to energy levels.  When I lived in Maryland I think handgun cartridges had to develop at least 700 ft/lbs at the muzzle.  I would almost bet that Delaware has a similiar definition somewhere.

They're not hedging their bets; they're idiots.  They have not a clue.  I also doubt they're sophisticated enough to have any definition related to muzzle energy.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Straight Walled Cartridges for Deer hunting. Which ones?
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2008, 05:18:06 am »
Grumulkin, I am sure the OP thanks you for hijacking his thread. So you don't like Delawares law, get over it and move on. Did you wake up today wanting to post such nonsense?   ::) ::)
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