Author Topic: .30-'06 derivatives...  (Read 5936 times)

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Offline no guns here

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.30-'06 derivatives...
« on: August 05, 2008, 04:27:11 am »
I remember a year or three ago a magazine article about ten different '06 based cartridges... of course I don't have it anymore but would like to sort of run it down and think about it again.  Might get on a weird kick and start buying a series of encore barrels or something like that...  Anyone know the article I'm talking about?


ngh
"I feared for my life!"

Graybeard Outdoors

.30-'06 derivatives...
« on: August 05, 2008, 04:27:11 am »
 

Offline Lone Star

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2008, 12:11:08 pm »
I do not know the exact article you are referring to, but look here:
http://www.z-hat.com/HawkCartridges.htm


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Offline deltecs

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2008, 04:45:05 pm »
I think there are 6 factory derivatives inclusive of the 06 parent round.  25-06, .270 Win, .280 Rem, 30-06, .338-06 A Square, and the .35 Whelen.  However, it has been wild catted and converted into propietary rounds in almost every bore imaginable from .224 through .416.  JDJ, American Hunting Rifles, Hawk, and several others have made this case the parent round for a line of proprietary cartridges sold exclusively through them.  Almost all of them have some sort of Ackley Improved modification to the brass by lengthening the shoulder, changing shoulder angle, rounding the shoulder, to actual Ackley Improved.  It is still the grand daddy of the most popular selling rounds in the world.  The 30-06 is the most popular selling round in the world, with its fledgling .270 Win being one of the top 5 selling cartridges in the US too.  Both added together make this parent round the best selling cartridge ever by a large margin.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 06:42:08 pm »
Quote
..The 30-06 is the most popular selling round in the world...
I won't dispute that statement - but do you have a reference supporting it?  The world is a mighty big place.


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Offline deltecs

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 07:29:27 pm »
Quote
..The 30-06 is the most popular selling round in the world...
I won't dispute that statement - but do you have a reference supporting it?  The world is a mighty big place.

Quote
While the .270 Winchester (particularly in North America) and 7x64 (particularly in Europe) are popular and excellent all-around cartridges for rifles with standard length actions, neither has ever equaled the .30-06 in total world sales. As much as I like the .270, I am not going to be holding my breath waiting for it to topple the venerable .30-06 from the top of the charts.
  http://www.chuckhawks.com/ever_popular_30.htm 

Quote
  .30-06 Springfield

If rifle, cartridge, and reloading die sales, along with hunter opinion mean anything, the .30-06 is still the most popular big game cartridge in the world. Which is saying a lot when we consider that even after close to a century of trying, we still haven't come up with a cartridge that comes close to threatening it popularity.

Developed and introduced by Springfield Armory in 1906, the .30-06 is a slightly shorter version of the earlier .30-03 cartridge. Its development as a U.S. military cartridge was inspired by Germany's development of the 7 x 57mm and 8 x 57mm Mauser cartridges. In addition to serving as the primary U.S. battle cartridge until 1952, the .30-06 has established a track record on target ranges and in the game fields that has yet to be equaled by any other cartridge. Other cartridges have now set more accuracy records and many hunters now choose more powerful cartridges for big game, but no cartridge has served both roles better than the .30-06.

When one takes a close look at the .30-06, the reasons behind its success become quite clear. To begin with, the .30-06 is about the most powerful cartridge the average shooter can handle without suffering discomfort. To end with, the .30-06 shoots flat enough for long range shooting of deer and pronghorn and it hits hard enough for most of the world's big game. As a bonus, a good bolt action rifle in .30-06 is accurate enough for varmint shooting even though it is far too much cartridge for such a task.

Hunter opinion on the best bullet weights for the .30-06 differ, but the 150 grain for deer size game and the 180 grain for everything else still makes a lot of sense. When all is said and done, the handloader with IMR-4350, IMR-4064, H4350, H414, and W-760 sitting on his powder shelf needs to look no farther. Source: Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition



I can submit more documentation if you like regarding rifle sales in what calibers in NA, and each of the continents.  More 30-30's have been sold in the US, but not in the world, compared to the 06 and not in the last 20 years for best selling rifles and calibers.
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
deltecs
Detente: An armed citizenry versus a liberal society
Opinion(s) are expressly mine alone and do not necessarily agree with those of GB or GBO mgmt.

Offline no guns here

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2008, 01:39:19 am »
yep, I know the '06 has been done in many flavors, sizes, shapes, shoulders and all that...  I just remember the article and it had a picture of all ten rounds side by side (or maybe it was a diagram). 

It started at the .22 range and went up to .375  I think.

ngh
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Offline bilmac

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 04:39:13 am »
How did they headspace a 416? On the case mouth like a 45 acp? I had to have the 25-06 and 35 Whelan before they factorized them. Both good practical cartridges.

Offline deltecs

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 04:32:30 pm »
How did they headspace a 416? On the case mouth like a 45 acp? I had to have the 25-06 and 35 Whelan before they factorized them. Both good practical cartridges.

The wild cat .416-06 has blown out and sharp shoulders for good heaspacing.  The .375-06 barely had enough shoulder at the same taper as its parent case for good head spacing.  The solution was to decrease case taper, increase the shoulder diameter, and sharpen the shoulder angle.  With a base diameter of .473 and minimal case taper, there is enough left for the shoulder to head space adequately. 
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
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Offline Reed1911

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2008, 10:57:47 am »
Quote
I can submit more documentation if you like regarding rifle sales in what calibers in NA, and each of the continents.  More 30-30's have been sold in the US, but not in the world, compared to the 06 and not in the last 20 years for best selling rifles and calibers.


 ;DI'm sorry I just can't help it, I'll bet you even money that I can show a caliber that is vastly more popular in the world than the .30-06. If we stick to sporting use I'll concede that the '06 has it, but World military sales wipe it out ;D

Offline deltecs

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2008, 01:27:16 pm »
Quote
I can submit more documentation if you like regarding rifle sales in what calibers in NA, and each of the continents.  More 30-30's have been sold in the US, but not in the world, compared to the 06 and not in the last 20 years for best selling rifles and calibers.


 ;DI'm sorry I just can't help it, I'll bet you even money that I can show a caliber that is vastly more popular in the world than the .30-06. If we stick to sporting use I'll concede that the '06 has it, but World military sales wipe it out ;D

I was referring to sporting cartridges. 
Greg lost his battle with cancer last week on April 2nd. RIP Greg. We miss you.

Greg
deltecs
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Offline flintman

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2008, 10:13:35 pm »
 Then there is my favorite-after the GREAT .30/06 unaltered of course-is the .375 Whelan...
John 3:16

Offline nomosendero

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2008, 03:22:34 pm »
Quote
..The 30-06 is the most popular selling round in the world...
I won't dispute that statement - but do you have a reference supporting it?  The world is a mighty big place.


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I agree, especially when you consider how may 7.62X39 rounds have been made, more than '06 I think.

But if you were to say that the '06 is the most popular selling worthwhile game cartridge, you would likely be right.
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Offline Jay HHI6818

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2008, 03:05:35 pm »
Since JDJ was mentioned, heres a picture of the 35-06JDJ, 60 degree shoulder (on the right).



Offline Swampman

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2008, 03:08:27 pm »
"I have long taught that if you can't do it with a 30-06, you probably can't do it."

Col. Jeff Cooper

Lots of folks have played with the .30-06, but they've never improved upon it.  I keep thinking I'd like to have another bolt action rifle, but besides the .223 for varmits, I just can't talk myself into spending the money.  I've finally given up
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Cowpox

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2008, 08:10:34 pm »
The old wildcat boys sure experimented with the '06 case.
   
   While paging through P.O. Ackley, volume 1, I came up with the following list of cartridges based on the 30/06 case.

   1) .228 Ackley Magnum
   2) .230 Ackley
   3) 6mm Ackley Belted Express
   4) .243 JS
   5) .240 Super Varminter
   6) .240 Mashburn Falcon
   7) .240 Gibbs
   8) .257 Bighorn
   9) .25 Niedner  (25/06)
  10) 25/06 Vickery
  11) 25/06 Ackley Improved
  12) 25/06 Mashburn
  13) .256 Newton
  14) .26 Epps
  15) 6.5/06
  16) 6.5/06 Ackley Improved
  17) .263 Sabre
  18) 6.5 ICL Boar
  19) .264 Williams
  20) .270 Winchester
  21) .270 Ackley Improved
  22) .270 ICL Jaguar
  23) .285 OKH
  24) 7MM Mashburn
  25) 7MM Ackley
  26) .280 Remington
  27) .280 Ackley Improved
  28) 30/06
  29) 30/06 ICL Caribou
  30) 30/06 Ackley Improved
  31) 8MM/06
  32) 8MM/06 Ackley Improved
  33) .338/06
  34) .338/06 Ackley Improved
  35) .35 Whelen
  36) .35 Whelen Improved
  37) .35 Brown-Whelen
  38) .375 Whelen

I only recall 5 that were "standardized".  25/06 Rem, .270 Win, .280 Rem, 30/06, and the .35 Whelen.
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Offline iiranger

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To cheat.... Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2008, 10:14:00 am »
Go find a catalogue of reloading equipment and look up "shell holders." Anything that uses the '06 shell holder is related. As I recall the '06 was preceeded by the '03 [.30/'03 with a 220 grain round nose] and this was derived from the Mausers, 7x57 and 8 x 57... Longer to hold more less efficient powder as made, then, in USA... Improvements in Germany and exported to USA allowed the shorter cartridge with lighter bullet to be standardized in 1906... Long list. luck.

Offline iiranger

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Mr. Cowpox missed... Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2008, 10:18:23 am »
Most of the Gibbs line. Original was .270 Gibbs. Went up to .338. Maybe .358. Shoulder blown forward for max case capacity back when '06 brass was free for the picking up (ammo was $0.01 per with a rifle, rifle was $18.00) ... enjoy.

Most of the Gibbs line, with Mr. A's apologies, were in Vol. 2. (I have the hard back books!).

Online rosewood

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2012, 06:47:48 am »
I think there are 6 factory derivatives inclusive of the 06 parent round.  25-06, .270 Win, .280 Rem, 30-06, .338-06 A Square, and the .35 Whelen. 

The .270 isn't really derived from the .30-06, it is derived from the .30-03, the same case the .30-06 was derived from.  I lost a bet on that argument a few years back as I thought it was derived from the 06 also.  It is actually a bit longer and if you resize the 06 to .270 it is too short (to meet specs), not saying it won't work, could cause issues if you crimp though.

After a little more reading, even though the .280 remington is attributed to being an offspring of the 06 by most, I am thinking it is really a derivative of the .270 since it is the same length of the .270.  I think the earlier wildcatters necked up the .270 to get the brass.  So, the 06 and 280 are really uncle and nephew and the .270 and 06 are brothers.  All ancestors of the .30-03 which was inspired by the 7mm mauser (if not descended from).  :)

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2012, 01:20:56 pm »
I'll probably ruffle some feathers with this post...  The .30-06 is a lengthened and reworked 7mm Mauser and the US originally paid royalties to Mauser on the '03 Springfield rifle.

Getting back to '06 derivatives, the .300 Savage was originally just a shortened '06.  Then they necked it down for the .250 Savage.  Later on followed buy the wildcat now standardized .22-250...

It seems everybody copies everybody else or we wouldn't have all those stupid belted magnums that don't need the belt...

Tony

Offline Ranger99

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2012, 01:28:20 pm »
i didn't see .308 win/ 7.62 nato,
or did i miss it?

Online rosewood

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Re: .30-'06 derivatives...
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 04:54:16 pm »
I'll probably ruffle some feathers with this post...  The .30-06 is a lengthened and reworked 7mm Mauser and the US originally paid royalties to Mauser on the '03 Springfield rifle.

Getting back to '06 derivatives, the .300 Savage was originally just a shortened '06.  Then they necked it down for the .250 Savage.  Later on followed buy the wildcat now standardized .22-250...

It seems everybody copies everybody else or we wouldn't have all those stupid belted magnums that don't need the belt...

Tony

I believe the .300 savage came from the .250-3000 Savage.  Then .308 was derived from the .300 Savage.  And the 260 rem, 7mm-08, 338 federal and 358 winchester all came from the .308.   

 

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