Author Topic: The 223 Short project.  (Read 27292 times)

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Offline 223_Short

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Shane: The Savage Model 10 is what the Stevens 200 is built from. Larry says that the magazine can handle the short rounds and be changed very quickly, as can the rearward bolt travel be limited for the short round. There are two ways to do a barrel - take a 223 barrel and cut it back, but that would require some serious threading and barrel nut mods to make it work. The easiest way is to get a 223 barrel blank and chamber it.

Jed is quite sure that using Lee neck-sizing dies will solve any concentricity issues with bullet seating.

So let me put this to you, do you want to be a contributor and get the prototype barrel, dies etc?, so we can start in a bolt rather than the Handi, and you can be Shooter One with Prototype One? Of course we would not want to borrow your rifle, as you have an immediate application for the 223 Short, I think that setting you up, and getting your data would be just terrific.

So what say you?


Offline Bull45cal

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Brian,

     I got your e-mail this morning, before I checked the forum here.  Are we talking a .224 bull barrel blank?  I think I could spring for one of those.  Also, what exactly are we talking about when you say dies?  I would be willing to send a ER Shaw barrel blank to Larry if that is what you mean.  If he could chamber and thread it for a stevens 200/savage 110 small shank, I could do the testing.  I have a shooting chrony, a 300 yard personal range, and I'm willing to play.  I could also send Jed a .223 lee neck sizing die to cut down, if that is what you were meaning, when you said "dies."  If Jed would send me back the other dies, I could size the .223 brass, load some cartridges, and document the whole process.  With help from the group, I'm sure we could work it out.  I'm willing to give it all I can, which is not as much as I would like, but who can these days.  Let me know what you guys think.

Shane

Offline 223_Short

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Here is the latest from Jed. He took Steve Ps advice and got the little cut-off saw.

Brian,   I bought one of the mini cut off saws at Harbor Freight to use for cutting off case necks. Here is a pic of the 223 case sized to 223 short, before and after cut off, it takes just seconds to cut.
Jed



Way to go Jed.

Offline 223_Short

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Brian,

I got your e-mail this morning, before I checked the forum here.  Are we talking a .224 bull barrel blank?  I think I could spring for one of those.  Also, what exactly are we talking about when you say dies?  I would be willing to send a ER Shaw barrel blank to Larry if that is what you mean.  If he could chamber and thread it for a stevens 200/savage 110 small shank, I could do the testing.  I have a shooting chrony, a 300 yard personal range, and I'm willing to play.  I could also send Jed a .223 lee neck sizing die to cut down, if that is what you were meaning, when you said "dies."  If Jed would send me back the other dies, I could size the .223 brass, load some cartridges, and document the whole process.  With help from the group, I'm sure we could work it out.  I'm willing to give it all I can, which is not as much as I would like, but who can these days.  Let me know what you guys think.

Shane

Shane: Even though these financial times for us are tough, if we all contribute a litlle we will get it done! Your offer to participate is exactly the kind of help we need to keep the momentum up. We have the FL die and the seater already customized, and yes, if you can send a 223 neck sizer to Jed he can cut that down, then he can finish forming and send them all back to you with the first batch of brass. I will email Larry to see if your barrel blank offer is workable, then we would all be waiting patiently for your test drive results. That would give us all specific roles and keep the development moving forward. I will email Larry with your offer details and see where we go from there. I knew someone would make an offer to help from among the amazing people on GBO...it just never fails to amaze me how cooperative everyone is. Thanks, Brian

Offline 223_Short

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We went around about using a 17 FB reamer and a 222 reamer, 17 FB would change the shoulder angle to 30 degrees and increase capacity a little, and the 222 reamer would mean a longer neck and less case body, which may or may not change the case capacity.

Finally we came back to reality and Larry will make a proto reamer from Jed's dummy rounds with no case design changes at this time.

Here is a graphic I made up to show the differences in the 223 Remington Family.


Offline 223_Short

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Jed has sent the sample rounds to Larry, so Larry can start to make the prototype reamer.

From Larry:

I got the sample rounds today and they look good to me.  I will start with a
reamer tomorrow or so, any time you guys find a barrel I will probably be
ready.  Look for a Remington takeoff barrel in .223 probably not a 22-250 or
swift because I would have to cut off too much to get rid of the chamber.  A
.223 or .222 would be good.  Larry

Stay tuned...

Offline 223_Short

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Larry has started work on the reamer.

From Larry:

I setup to make the reamer today, by measurment, I get a taper of about .012
from in front of the extractor groove to the sholder.  That is over a
distance of about .700 inch.  If that sounds about right then I will cut
some metal.  We are doing a 23 Degree sholder is that right?  I can make it
anything.  Larry

My response:

Larry:

Whatever the taper as measured by you will be our spec.

We decided to stick with the standard 23 degree shoulder.

We decided on using the "as formed" thick neck also.

Have at it.

Thanks again,

Brian
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Offline 223_Short

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The reamer is done!

On Mar 28, 2010, at 9:41 PM, Larry Trotter wrote:

The reamer is done now, it looks good.  Any time someone finds a barrel we
will be good to go.  Larry
-----

Larry:

Way to go! Congratulations!

Keep making turnaround times like this and you will spoil us.

So, has Shane sent the Lee 223 Neck Sizer to Jed yet? Also, Shane keep us appraised of the barrel situation.

Thanks all once more,

Brian

Offline sk330lc

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How close would The FN 5.7x28mm be to your 223 short?  
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Offline 223_Short

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How close would The FN 5.7x28mm be to your 223 short?  

SK...The 5.7x28 is a ballistic duplicate of the 22 Hornet, uses about 14g of powder - about .8cc. If you haven't caught the thread I was looking for something that fell exactly between the 22 Hornet 0.79cc and the 221 Fireball 1.43cc with a modern case design. I was also looking for really cheap parent brass, and staying within the 223 family met that design requirement also.

One thing I will do in the future is a rechamber of an H&R Sportster 22 Mag barrel in 5.7x28. Also, the 22 Reed Express is a good candidate for a Handi rechamber, uses 7.62 pistol case necked down to 224, a duplicate of the 22 Hornet ballistics.

I really appreciate your interest in our project.

Offline Bull45cal

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Bryan,

     I can't seem to get up with Larry.  Can one of you guys get him to send me his address.  I'm ready to have Green Mountain drop ship him a .223 blank. 

Thanks,
Shane

Offline 223_Short

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Larry and Shane are hooked up regarding shipping the barrel directly to Larry.

Larry is making a small adjustment to increase the neck diameter of the reamer.

Larry sent me a piece of scrap barrel he chambered for a test, plus a dummy round.

This is the first time I have held a dummy round in my hands. It is a nice feeling seeing something I designed turned into a tangible object thanks to Jed and Larry. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline Bull45cal

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Update 5-27-10
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2010, 06:55:45 am »
Looks like we are in business.  I'm now the hold-up again.  
Larry e-mailed me this update.

The barrel arrived at about 7:30 PM today, I will get on it tomorrow and getting shipped before the weekend.

Larry  (5-26-10)


Jed,
     Sorry I haven't gotten up with you about the die.  It seems like something is intentionally holding us back.  First I order the wrong dies, then I have computer problems (can't order anything), then comes everything else in my life, now some one wants my identity.  They certainly don't know me, because my identity ain't work stealing.  I'm looking for a new credit card in the mail today, then (hopefully) I can get my order on its way.  I promise I'm not trying to stall, but I'm wondering when I will actually get them.  Sorry for leaving you hanging.  Why don't I just leave it at, "I'll contact you when its own its way."  By the way, be aware that using a credit card at a fast-food restaurant is like rolling the dice with your credit card number.  That goes for any restaurant really.  I hope to be getting back to you soon.  

Later,
Shane



Offline 223_Short

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2010, 08:58:09 pm »
Here is Larry's communication for the day.

I got the chamber cut tonight, I think things look good.  Someone needs to
decide on the neck diameter of the chamber.  The Fireball brass measures
about .255 at the neck with a bullet seated and the other brass (I presume
.223) measures .260.  If you don't want to neck turn and use .223 brass I
will ream the neck to about .262 to .263, if you want to use the FB brass I
will ream it to .257 or so.  Just for reference the .222 reamer I use to cut
the neck and throat is .253.  I don't think it would hurt to have the neck
at the larger size (.262) because the bullet is seated out where it is
supported in the throat which will keep it centered no matter what the neck
is turned to.  If you want easy cheap brass then the .262 neck would
probably be good.  Let me know, it is easy any way you want it done.  It
also looks like to keep the bullet out of the lands, you may have to seat
the bullets about .010 deeper than the samples I have, but I will know
exactly when I can put a sample in the chamber.  Larry

Larry also said he found a .261 neck reamer...so we may go with that as a compromise so shooters can use 221 FB or 223 Rem parent brass.

Max AOL would be 1.490" rather than 1.500".

Offline 223_Short

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2010, 11:15:53 pm »
Larry's followup:

After thinking about it some and measuring other samples, I ran the .261
reamer in so that there is .008 in front of your trim length at the neck and
.124 or so sticking out the rear of the chamber for your bolt head to grab.
My .223 bolt head measures .117 deep, so that leaves about .008 gap from the
breach face to the bolt head rim.  With these dememsions, three of the 4
samples I have will chamber without any drag on them, the one that won't
chamber may have the neck off center some, hard to tell.  Measure your bolt
head depth and if you need a little more case sticking out I will fix that
when I thread the breach end.  I will cut a slight bevel into the chamber to
help feeding.  I think this looks like a good place to start.  In the sample
dummy rounds the bullets are short of the lands by some amount, (probably
not by much) so I would start loading up some test ammo the way you had the
samples set, they look good to me.  You can always just get a straight
reamer to make the neck larger if you need it, but it is a lot easier to
make it larger than smaller.  Larry

Offline 223_Short

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2010, 03:17:45 pm »
Shane's followup:

Larry,
Iím with Brian and think it would defeat the purpose of this cartridge to neck turn ever piece of 223 brass run through it.  Iím in total agreement with the 0.261 neck diameter.  Youíre right Larry, better to be a little tight, than too loose, we can always open it up a little.  So 0.261, that means this will be a tight necked cartridge. I checked my .30-06 Match reamer drawing, and the neck dia. is less than .001 larger than loaded case neck dia.  So, the 0.261 should work.  I do think we may have early pressure signs, and case manufacturers tolerances (for the .223 cases) may affect performance significantly, with this tight neck.  I will check all this out during load development.  I may do some .221 FB vs. .223 comparisons during the latter part of testing.  I will measure my bolt face tonight, and get back to you.  This is going to be great.
 
Jed,
What is the neck thickness of the brass you made from the .223 cases?  When I do finally get that Lee die to you, can you run a few cases and test to see if the die will size them down enough.  Iím wondering if we may need to polish, the mandrel, off half a thou or so to get the brass down to proper inside neck diameter.  Just thinking that thicker brass at the neck will be real springy.  Again, it would be better to start with too little neck tension, then too much.  I can always polish off some more if I need to.  I use the, ďif I donít have to force the bullet into the case with the bullet seating die, and I canít push it any further into the case with my finger, then its good,Ē test.  I know you have already figured all this out in your head, Iím just talking this out for my sake.

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2010, 09:18:09 pm »
It's finished and in the parkerizing tank now.  23 1/2 inches long and full bull barrel 1.060 full length.  11 degree target crown.  Good luck, tell us how it shoots.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline 223_Short

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2010, 01:22:52 pm »
Larry shipped our first 223 Short chambered barrel to Shane this morning.

Thanks Larry.

Offline 223_Short

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Review of 223 Short Prototype Cartridge Specifications
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2010, 02:00:10 pm »
I emailed the team the following:

Jed:

I can't check this myself so I figured you are the best one to check for me.

I would like to review cartridge specs, please double check your samples and by marking up this email, make any changes.

When you are done, please email all of us and then Larry can review and see any differences he may have.

Max Cartridge Length = 1.625" changed to 1.635".

Max Case Length = 1.125" changed to 1.135".

Trim Case Length = 1.115" changed to 1.125".
I am using -0.010" trim difference because the case is very small.

Case Diam at Base = 0.376"

Case Diam at Shoulder = 0.358" changed to 0.362".

Case taper starts and stops over what length? That is, how far up the case is the last time the diam is 0.376", and how far up the case is the first time the diam is 0.358"? changed to 0.362"?

Shoulder Length = 0.083" changed to 0.126". <--- my outright math error (bad subtraction).

Neck OD with bullet seated on 221 FB parent = 0.255"

Neck OD with bullet seated on 223 Rem parent = 0.260"

Neck Length = 0.203"

Thanks as usual,

Brian
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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2010, 02:43:36 pm »
The tracking number shows it out for delivery, let us know how it looks on the rifle.  Larry
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Offline Bull45cal

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2010, 10:23:01 am »
The barrel came in Tuesday, and I picked it up during lunch yesterday.  As expected, Larry did a fantastic job on the barrel, and I'm excited to get it all together in the near future.  I've got some stock modifications to make, then I'll put it all together.  The 223 collet die is in as well, and I'll pick that up after work today.  I'll have it in the mail soon, and a tracking number for Jed. 

Jed,
     Do you have any Winchester 223 brass that you have or can form, cut, and measure?  I've heard that Win. brass is thinner than a lot of others.  Just wondering if you have seen the same thing? 

Everyone,
      I'm going to buy a lot of once fired brass for testing, and I don't want to do much neck work on the brass.  Thoughts on what brass will be the best once fired to use, considering the thinner brass should be less likely to require inside neck reaming?

Later,
Shane

Offline sk330lc

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2010, 05:33:55 pm »
FYI.  I have found Winchester 223 Brass to be  thicker than  Milspec LC brass.    Atleast in the two differant Lots I have.  I don't remember the Numbers Right off the top of my head.  But the Win. Case weigh More than anyother cases I Compared them to.  Might just been the Lots I have.     
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Offline Bull45cal

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2010, 11:31:17 am »
sk330lc,

     Jed verified your findings with measurements on LC & Win. 223 brass, as well as 221 FB Rem brass.  Looks like the LC was .0005-.001 thinner case wall at neck of the 223 Short cases.  Now I just need to find some good LC range brass.  Any leads?

Shane

Jed's message below:

 I just seen your post on GBO that asked about  the difference between 223 case wall thickness.
  I had a Winchester, a LC 98 ( both 223 cases ), and a R P 221 fireball case to measure.
  I cut them all down to approx. 1.125 long and deburred them inside and outside.
  Measuring with digital calipers, I got these measurements as to wall thickness about a 1/4" below where the cases were cut off.
223 Lake City 98 brass,  .012 to .015 thick
223 Win. brass,  .0135 to .016  thick
Rem.  221 F B brass,  .013 to .0165 thick
  It seems that the Lake City brass maybe a little thinner ? .........

Offline sk330lc

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2010, 04:47:08 pm »
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Offline 223_Short

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2010, 06:31:52 pm »
sk330lc,

     Jed verified your findings with measurements on LC & Win. 223 brass, as well as 221 FB Rem brass.  Looks like the LC was .0005-.001 thinner case wall at neck of the 223 Short cases.  Now I just need to find some good LC range brass.  Any leads?

Shane

Jed's message below:

 I just seen your post on GBO that asked about  the difference between 223 case wall thickness.
  I had a Winchester, a LC 98 ( both 223 cases ), and a R P 221 fireball case to measure.
  I cut them all down to approx. 1.125 long and deburred them inside and outside.
  Measuring with digital calipers, I got these measurements as to wall thickness about a 1/4" below where the cases were cut off.
223 Lake City 98 brass,  .012 to .015 thick
223 Win. brass,  .0135 to .016  thick
Rem.  221 F B brass,  .013 to .0165 thick
  It seems that the Lake City brass maybe a little thinner ? .........

Shane, it is important we use a variety of brass over the period of your testing and record it, but it is up to you to choose the first brass you want to use.

Separating brass by water capacity is most important, as it relates directly to powder capacity, and that will be the difference between brass manufacturers.

Case weight will vary between manufacturers and is often an indication of brass thickness, so you need to keep a record of that also.

Thanks again,

Brian

Offline 223_Short

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2010, 06:49:42 pm »
Everyone,
      I'm going to buy a lot of once fired brass for testing, and I don't want to do much neck work on the brass...

Shane: PLEASE DO NOT perform ANY INSIDE OR OUTSIDE DIAMETER NECK WORK on ANY CASE after they have been formed and trimmed. This is a design requirement.

So during your testing, you will have to discover how well the neck of the chamber is handling different brand's of brass.

We know the neck thickness Larry has measured for specing the reamer are .255" for the 221 brass, and .260" for the 223 brass. The beginning chamber neck diameter is .261".

The desired result would be that all brass fires and ejects well using the starting chamber neck diameter of .261". You may expect the 221 parent brass to shoot well, and the 223 parent with a very tight neck the benchrest shooters like, shoots better or best.

Remember we can always open up the chamber neck if the 223 parent brass is hard to eject.

Good luck.

Brian

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2010, 11:19:39 pm »
From what I observed and measured, none of the brass produced a neck diameter when loaded that would "capture" the bullet in the case when chambered.  Being hard to eject will probably not be a problem, being hard to chamber may.  Even if it is hard to chamber, it is most likely because the neck is not exactly aligned with the body of the brass and one side drags in the neck when it is chambered.  One fireing and the neck will be perfectly aligned with the body and the chamber, after that, sizing will probably make life good.  Inside neck reaming after fireing once would probably be a good thing to do, this is a common thing, it would make things much more uniforn and get rid of any "doughnuts" that are produced in the case forming process.  I don't know if this would be a problem or not, I have not really looked at any formed cases, the ones I have all seem to be good, just a couple thousanths difference in the neck diameters when a round is seated.  In any event, even if it is a little hard to chamber a round after forming, I think it's OK, just start a little lower with the loads on the cases with tight necks and work up.  Good luck.  Larry
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Offline Bull45cal

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2010, 09:02:22 am »
Thanks Larry, that makes me feel better.

Offline 223_Short

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2010, 03:50:03 pm »
Thanks Larry, that makes me feel better.

Ditto Larry.

Offline Bull45cal

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Re: The 223 Short project.
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2010, 09:33:36 am »
Alright,

    Jed sent me the dies and some sized cases, as well as a few unsized 221 FB brass.  Take a look at the pics.

Here is the package!



Below: From left to right, in the fore ground.  
223 Short, 75gr. Hornady A-Max (.224 dia), 221 Fireball, Extended shell holder (Jed's design), and a modified Lee .223 Rem collet neck sizing die (moded by Jed)