Hard loading Savage ML2 - Page 2 - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-11-2017, 12:36 PM
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Fact:
If you have to beat the projectile down the bore it is too big a dia., either the bullet proper or the bullet sabot combination, regardless of what the 'manual says'.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 06-11-2017, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfspotter View Post
One of the shooting instructors at our local range had a savage inline and it was hard to load. He swears the bullet/sabot was fully seated against the smokeless powder but that Savage blew up, sent shrapnel right through the plywood bench. Guy at the other end of the shooting lane was hit in the arm and several split barrel pieces

ended up in the parking lot. Scope glass disintegrated to the size of grains of sand.
The shooter ended up with an injured hand. Barrel pieces were gathered and sent to Savage to be analysed.
Word has it that a foreign manufacturer produced the barrels.
As I recall, when Savage initially released the MLII there was a design flaw with the barrel/chamber and there were some blow ups. I own the original ML version, not the II, and it is a tank. In fact, at one time there was a gentleman on a site who destruction tested the ML with several projectiles in the barrel and it failed to deconstruct. The design flaw in the MLII was corrected and those guns were very strong as well. I have no knowledge of barrels being outsourced and it wouldn't make sense for a company who makes some pretty outstanding rifle barrels to risk their reputation on overseas outsourcing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcrank1 View Post
Fact:
If you have to beat the projectile down the bore it is too big a dia., either the bullet proper or the bullet sabot combination, regardless of what the 'manual says'.
Or it could mean you are simply too weak to push it down the bore with the ramrod. The bores on these guns are tight and accuracy doesn't seem to be as good with .451 projectiles. You definitely have to have some strength to seat the bullet and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Gcrank, what is your experience level with the ML?
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-18-2017, 07:19 PM
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Fixed mine by polishing the barrel with JB Bore Bright. Now I can use my hands to seat the sabot/bullet. Before I had to pound the ram rod with a piece of 2x4
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 08:54 AM
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All I know is this. Be thankful you have a tight bore. Seen guys with loose bore Savages that suffer from inaccuracy or worse yet misfires.


Those savages were great guns so long as you got one with a good barrel, but they weren't all created equal.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-30-2017, 10:18 AM
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Team101; my experience just off the top of my head:
Been shooting muzzleloading guns since the 70's
Rifled, smoothbores cap&ball pistols, caplocks and flintlocks, mostly tradition guns but some inlines, tight-fitted patched round balls to bore dia. conicals (Parker Hale 451 Volunteer), offhand, bench and over the log matches
WMLRA competition and range officer
A good bit more than an amateur gunsmith and machinist
Built, rebuilt, refurbed and problem solved too much stuff to remember or list
Seen and been around a bunch of stuff done well and a whole lotta stuff done poorly or just plain wrong and figured out how to tell the difference
The specific model ML is still a rifled barrel that launches a projectile with a powder charge, the fundamentals are well established; any problem points toward the solution. In this case, the hard loading indicates too large a bullet or combination of bullet/sabot even though it may be what is factory recommended. The particular barrel is telling what is going on. A thou' or two too large can be a noticeable difference. Trying a smaller dia. projectile is the quickest and easiest trial. Not likely the bore is rough but it is worth a look with a good light/ popping the breech plug & inspecting and/or running a tight fitted oiled cleaning patch downbore to feel for roughness and/or snags. Polishing a good bore wont hurt but is cart before the horse to looking at what is there and finding a combo that runs in nicely.
Btw, if those '.452' bullets are cast but you havent actually measured them dont believe the box!

Last edited by gcrank1; 01-09-2018 at 11:32 AM.
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-02-2017, 10:58 AM
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My MLII gets harder to load after half a dozen shots or so from plastic and powder fouling. Couple passes with a brush helps a great deal. I use N110, the black harvester sabots and .452" bullets.
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 09:33 AM
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Crush rib sabots will help as well as some of the slicker, low-drag sabots. Try them with .451 and .452 bullets and see what is the best combination for ease of loading and accuracy.

Polishing with JB takes elbow grease, but helps. Maybe not enough to make the original bullet/sabot combination easy enough for a petite woman, but it will help none the less.

Polishing and a different bullet/sabot combo is probably what will get you where you want to be.

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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-11-2018, 11:39 AM
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I'm a longtime muzzleloading instructor and have been using a 10ML for at least 10 years in a part of upstate NY where we had a farm and where I got a chance to take a lot of deer. What is below is based on my experience and your mileage may vary....

As a general rule 10ML II rifles seem to like around 30-35 pounds seating pressure for the most consistent performance. If you're having to work a lot harder than that it's time to try a different combination. I will note that all other things being equal the crushed rib sabots from Harvester Muzzleloading seem to defy that 30-35 pound number as they load easier most of the time but powder ignites and the bullets group just fine.

I've never used JB Bore Compound or similar products on an MLII but as a former match rifle builder and long time service rifle and match rifle competitor I've seen a lot of barrels damaged by improper use of the stuff. Remember that the corners of the rifling lands need to be sharp to really grip the sabot so I'd advise going easy and in stages. After a little polishing and then cleaning the JB out of the barrel you can test a bullet/sabot combo and just push it our the breech to check for sharp engraving from the rifling and ease of loading. Repeat as needed.

My biggest concern with really easy to seat loads is that a good rap on the rifle may move the load up off the powder column and cause a short loaded condition. And every bulged or burst muzzleloader I have seen showed signs of either potential or obvious short loading as the bulge or burst site centered down the barrel somewhat from a fully seated load. That includes a stainless and laminate MLII that I carelessly short loaded and bulged the barrel on when I stopped my loading sequence so a guy in a hurry could go change his target. I first started teaching the NRA muzzleloading rifle and shotgun courses in 1990 and believe me I felt pretty **** dumb that day......and lucky, too.

As has been suggested the .451" Barnes 275 grain XPB bullet works superbly in any 10ML I've been around. The only one I ever recovered was from a big doe that got spooked and started to whirl around as I touched off the shot so I hit the point of her shoulder instead of the broadside heart/lung shot I thought I had. The bullet passed through the shoulder, exited behind the last off side rib and, as she was twisted up like a fish hook when I shot her, it entered the front of the off side hindquarter and stopped about 2" from exiting the rear of the ham.

Another .451" bullet that has shown good results is the 230 grain Hornady XTP. My experience with it has been similar to the .452" 250 grain XTP; deer generally are dead right there (DRT) with no exit wound, a fragmented bullet with the jacket often under or close to the skin on the far side and massive internal damage. I prefer an exit wound and less lead fragments in my deer so if I use an XTP I reach for 300 grain non-magnums.

Another good option is to cruise over to Magnum Muzzleloading Products website mmpsabot.com and check out the HPH series of sabots and the 3Petal-EZ sabot. With a .452" bullet they step down in loaded diameter about .002" each size and could go a long way to fixing your problem. As a last resort, the 3Petal-EZ is for very hard to load rifles but I've yet to see a 10MLII and a .452" bullet in which they didn't just about fall down the bore.......

Depending on the temperature and humidity where you hunt it may be worth keeping in mind that Accurate 5744 is more tolerant of temperature changes and more humidity resistant the the other common 10ML powders. What you got at 90 degrees on the range in August will be pretty much what you get at 0 degrees in December in terms of velocity and vertical shot grouping. Added to that, 5744 is easier to ignite than any other 10ML power and especially with softer seating loads that can be a big plus.

And my experience has been that 5744 is very clean burning. I've used my MLII and 250 grain .452" XTPs with MMP short black sabots at a lot of hunter education classes where I loaded 20-30 shots one after the other so that students could shoot a muzzleloader and haven't had powder or plastic fouling problems.

Well, enough of my ramblings. I'm looking forward to whatever route gillnet takes as there is always something to learn.


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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-11-2018, 12:33 PM
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If she is getting very hard loading from the very first load then different size bullets and a crush rib sabot is in order but if this occurs after several shots you may have to clean between shots I made it a practice to do this when sighting in for a hunt as your first shot is out of a clean barrel Like was said buy a Lee .450 sizing die and continue to use the same sabot if still hard go t a crush rib I have had a ML'er II since day one I have heard all the stories of these gun blowing up 99% of the time the gun was double loaded. It's a must to use that ram rod witness mark it could save your life Good Luck

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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 01-24-2018, 03:37 PM
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I also use mmp sabots and have two kinds. I am shooting a encore. They ask you what barrel manufacturer you use when you order from them. One is standard for weight and size the other is called ez it has 3 pedals instead of 4. Give them a call see if they can help 870 741 5019
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