Any ideas on the cause? - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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Default Any ideas on the cause?

Cartridge: 35 Remington
Brass: Hornady
Bullet: Pretty much anything...have used 200 FTX, 230 Lead GC, 200 HP Custom swaged, Unknown maker (Sierra or Hornady) 200 RN
Powder: Leverevolution

I have loaded this round for this particular rifle for a few years now with somewhere between 39.0 grains for the 230 GC bullets, to 41.4 (where I started when I got the rifle) up to 42.7 grains (latest charge I tried that shot the best groups) of Leverevolution for the 200 grain class bullets and I always get the exact same results: groups that are just below or right at an inch.

However, the gun as one idiosyncrasy that I have yet to be able to explain: the first cold shot will be almost exactly 2" below the group. EVERY time! Shot #2 and on will group beautifully! This is even on a cold, DIRTY barrel and not a cleaned barrel. I could certainly expect a clean barrel shot to be off from the group as I get that all the time with all my other guns.

I really only started to notice this while doing load testing and keeping my targets with written notes on them about the load that I was testing on that target. Started noticing that my very first shots were all 2" low.

Change bullets or powder charge during the shooting session? No big deal, they group just fine. But let the gun cool completely out and fire another round and it is back with bullet #1 at 2" low (did this the last time I had it out as a test).

Is Leverevolution that temperature unstable that a single shot warms up the chamber so much that the rest of the shots settle in 2" higher that the cold shot?

The only thing that I have not done is shoot the cold shot through the chronograph to compare against subsequent shots.

Come to think of it, I used to have an H&R .44 Mag that I had to wait for the gun to cool between shots or else bullets would climb high and right.

Still living under the curse, but one of these days I will shed this body, be clothed with an immortal one, and everything will be good.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 10:10 AM
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You are shooting at 100 yards right? If it's only 2 inches high on the first shot then I wouldn't even worry about it. It is not a target rifle and a 2 inch group in a hunting rifle is probably more common than folk let on on the WWW. Most likely it has to do with that first shot settling something physical on the rifle. Probably a harmonics issue and those are hard to resolve on a handi rifle. There are guys on here that know a lot more than I do concerning the Handi Rifles, hopefully one of them will chime in!

For what it's worth my very first coyote rifle was a Remington 700 in 270 that went through a fire. The wood and trigger had been replaced by the original owner and the whole thing painted white. The bore looked like a dirt road and thus the rifle would only shoot three inches with any ammo. I killed 18 coyotes with that rifle the first two years that I hunted them. None of those coyotes knew that my gun only shot 3 inch groups. The next hundred were killed with an early Mini 14 that didn't shoot any better than the 270.

I'm just trying to tell you that your rifle isn't all that bad compared to a lot of guns that successfully kill game!
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gpa&hisguns View Post
You are shooting at 100 yards right? If it's only 2 inches high on the first shot then I wouldn't even worry about it. It is not a target rifle and a 2 inch group in a hunting rifle is probably more common than folk let on on the WWW. Most likely it has to do with that first shot settling something physical on the rifle. Probably a harmonics issue and those are hard to resolve on a handi rifle. There are guys on here that know a lot more than I do concerning the Handi Rifles, hopefully one of them will chime in!

For what it's worth my very first coyote rifle was a Remington 700 in 270 that went through a fire. The wood and trigger had been replaced by the original owner and the whole thing painted white. The bore looked like a dirt road and thus the rifle would only shoot three inches with any ammo. I killed 18 coyotes with that rifle the first two years that I hunted them. None of those coyotes knew that my gun only shot 3 inch groups. The next hundred were killed with an early Mini 14 that didn't shoot any better than the 270.

I'm just trying to tell you that your rifle isn't all that bad compared to a lot of guns that successfully kill game!



Cold shot is 2" low. I just find it odd that all subsequent shots with the same load will group fairly tight "for a Handi", save that initial shot.

Never needed a follow up shot with that rifle, but one of these days I might get a chance at a double.

Still living under the curse, but one of these days I will shed this body, be clothed with an immortal one, and everything will be good.
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 11:02 AM
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I will hear some grief on this, but try it with the fore stock off. Let it lay on a sandbag,(NOT on the barrel stud nut) and recoil naurally against your shoulder.

Most NEF/H&R want to be held down, but if it throws the first shot into the group all you will have to do is rebed the fore stock.

That is the reason I made a Curly Maple fore stock, lead shot weighted, and Acra glased, for my Pardner II 12 Ga full rifled. World of difference with three overlapping holes @ 50 yds using a peep sight.

Hope it solves the problem.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 11:12 AM
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I have bedded and free floated a lot of bolt action rifles. Some even require a pressure point on the front of the forearm. However I never messed with it on a Handi. Thanks Old Man.....it sounds like the same applies. Ya learned me something new!
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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I will hear some grief on this, but try it with the fore stock off. Let it lay on a sandbag,(NOT on the barrel stud nut) and recoil naurally against your shoulder.

Most NEF/H&R want to be held down, but if it throws the first shot into the group all you will have to do is rebed the fore stock.

That is the reason I made a Curly Maple fore stock, lead shot weighted, and Acra glased, for my Pardner II 12 Ga full rifled. World of difference with three overlapping holes @ 50 yds using a peep sight.

Hope it solves the problem.


Can't hurt to try.

My Handis are always rested on the frame on a shooting bag; never on the forearm.

Thanks for the idea!

Still living under the curse, but one of these days I will shed this body, be clothed with an immortal one, and everything will be good.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 12:38 PM
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What lube are you using? A cold start flyer is not even close to rare with some lubes. Not all lubes are created equal, simple fact of cast bullet shooting.

Your cold barrel may be causing the first shot to have more pressure because your lube is leaving too much sticky "baggage" behind, the cold lube remnants which raise pressure/speed makes for less barrel time from the extra speed. That could be making the shot hit low as it is exiting the barrel a nano second before the rest of the group does. This does not happen when the bore is "warm" and the leftovers are softer. That is my guess.

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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Man View Post
I will hear some grief on this, but try it with the fore stock off. Let it lay on a sandbag,(NOT on the barrel stud nut) and recoil naurally against your shoulder.

Most NEF/H&R want to be held down, but if it throws the first shot into the group all you will have to do is rebed the fore stock.

That is the reason I made a Curly Maple fore stock, lead shot weighted, and Acra glased, for my Pardner II 12 Ga full rifled. World of difference with three overlapping holes @ 50 yds using a peep sight.

Hope it solves the problem.

Yes, Worth a try.
I, too, am thinking its the rifle and not the ammo/reload.

Ray
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chuckduster01 View Post
What lube are you using? A cold start flyer is not even close to rare with some lubes. Not all lubes are created equal, simple fact of cast bullet shooting.

Your cold barrel may be causing the first shot to have more pressure because your lube is leaving too much sticky "baggage" behind, the cold lube remnants which raise pressure/speed makes for less barrel time from the extra speed. That could be making the shot hit low as it is exiting the barrel a nano second before the rest of the group does. This does not happen when the bore is "warm" and the leftovers are softer. That is my guess.

No lube on jacketed bullets; that's when I started noticing it while shooting groups while working up loads for jacketed hunting rounds. I used the GC lead bullets mainly just plinking at dirt clods or water bottles, but that was when I first got it and it has been a few trips since I had fired one of those. Been too long ago that I put them on paper to remember if it threw the first one low with them too or not. I did take a large doe with one of those 230 GC bullets though and was surprised she ran as far as she did with the damage that big old WFN did to her.

Looks like I may need to scrub the heck out of the barrel and get it fouled without any of the lubed lead bullets being shot and see if it still does it.

Still living under the curse, but one of these days I will shed this body, be clothed with an immortal one, and everything will be good.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegahunter View Post
No lube on jacketed bullets; that's when I started noticing it while shooting groups while working up loads for jacketed hunting rounds. I used the GC lead bullets mainly just plinking at dirt clods or water bottles, but that was when I first got it and it has been a few trips since I had fired one of those. Been too long ago that I put them on paper to remember if it threw the first one low with them too or not. I did take a large doe with one of those 230 GC bullets though and was surprised she ran as far as she did with the damage that big old WFN did to her.

Looks like I may need to scrub the heck out of the barrel and get it fouled without any of the lubed lead bullets being shot and see if it still does it.

Ahhh, yeah I missed that part, did not read too good while distracted I suppose. A good cleaning may be a good idea. A solid scrub before shooting cast is always a good idea, maybe it works the other way around too?????? I do not shoot enough of them mass produced copper wrapped bullets to know I guess.

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