45-70 smokeless muzzle loader & 45-70 in one - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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Default 45-70 smokeless muzzle loader & 45-70 in one

Anyone know if their are any companies out there that have tried to create a solid 45-70 cartridge made of steel with a 209 recess and ignition pathway. Similar to a friction fit breach plug? Thus allowing the user to load through the muzzle without barrel alteration and also shot 45-70 ammo. Pressures should be lower pushing a sabot verses a full boar rifle bullet. You would need to use a special sabot .458 outside diameter . You might need to remove the extractor so you could remove primer and not eject . I know why would anyone do this. The Remington 700 long range muzzle loader for example.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 08:16 PM
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My BIL had a machinist make him one years ago. Not sure why but it's got a groove under the head for an o-ring. Also one side of the head is notched so it clears the ejector. He used .45 caliber sabots and .357 bullets. I can ask if he still has the loads written down and maybe chrony speeds. I recall accuracy falling off when we pushed them too fast. We figured that because we'd find sabots missing a finger.

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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-17-2020, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Gonefshn View Post
Anyone know if their are any companies out there that have tried to create a solid 45-70 cartridge made of steel with a 209 recess and ignition pathway. Similar to a friction fit breach plug? Thus allowing the user to load through the muzzle without barrel alteration and also shot 45-70 ammo. Pressures should be lower pushing a sabot verses a full boar rifle bullet. You would need to use a special sabot .458 outside diameter . You might need to remove the extractor so you could remove primer and not eject . I know why would anyone do this. The Remington 700 long range muzzle loader for example.

I dreamed about doing this exact same format, but Indiana will not allow a breech plug that will just slip out and be replaced by the original cartridge.

Double check with your state to make sure that it would be legal to hunt with if that is your reason for doing it.

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-17-2020, 09:43 PM
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Similar to a friction fit breach plug? Thus allowing the user to load through the muzzle without barrel alteration and also shot 45-70 ammo.
Not that I know of. I have taken an H&R 45X70 barrel and had it machined so a Savage smokeless breach plug would fit and made a muzzleloader out of it. Nice little muzzleloader that will kill deer at 200yds.

Thats all she wrote.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 08:53 AM
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I have converted many 45-70's to smokeless muzzleloaders using Savage,CVA, and home made breech plus but all of them are not reversible to also shoot 45-70's.
After thinking about it I believe it could be done. The method that I use to convert 50 cal. Huntsman muzzleloaders to 50-70 could work in reverse. If you can find a large diameter threaded breech plug something around 7/8" OD and get your 45-70 barrel indicated in the 4 jaw lathe chuck. Bore and thread the breech end for the breech plug to use for muzzleloading and then you could use a piece of a cut off barrel thread the OD the same as the breech plug and pre bore the center ID to 1/2" for the reamer pilot. You would have to figure a way to loosen and tighten this plug in to the barrel without weakening it then with it snugged in ream the plug with a 45-70 reamer until you joined the partial chamber in the plug with the partial chamber left in the barrel. With carefull machine work if you make this butt joint between the former chamber and the new breech plug with the back half of the 45-70 chamber a tight fit you will never see a line on your fired brass.

If I have lost you in my details just say the original 45-70 chamber is 2" plus long. Your muzzleloading breech plug is 1 1/4" long so when you bore, spot face , and thread the barrel for this plug to the correct depth so when it is installed the cap or primer is at the correct height. Then you make your second breech plug the same thread size and length so when installed will be flush with the barrels face. Then it is reamed back to 45-70 and cut for the extractor / ejector and the joint between this breech plug and the remaining 3/4" + of the original chamber . When fired and the brass expands to seal tha chamber there would be no blow by as it would act just as it did in its original configuration.

I have made more than 10 of the 50-70 rifles this way from muzzleloaders and you would never know there is a breech plug joint when you look at the fired brass and they are just as accurate as a Gus with a new barrel.

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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 09:24 AM
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Is it legal to just insert a primed 45-70 case and then load the powder and bullet from the muzzle? This is similar to some of the ignition systems that use primed brass on a breech plug. I donít know how your state defines a muzzleloader, they may require a fixed breech plug.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 09:24 PM
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Ben Hubbard made a bunch of these out of thick brass. I bought his last one 5 or 6 years ago and have since passed it on to another Gbo member. Without o rings a heavy breech plug that doesn't expand during firing with smokeless results in a lot of blow by. I had to epoxy the plug into the chamber and deepen the primer pocket to o ring the 209. This stopped the gas leakage.

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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by garandsrus View Post
Is it legal to just insert a primed 45-70 case and then load the powder and bullet from the muzzle? This is similar to some of the ignition systems that use primed brass on a breech plug. I donít know how your state defines a muzzleloader, they may require a fixed breech plug.
Putting powder and pushing a bullet down a barrel with a live primer in it sounds like a good way to shoot your self. Just saying.

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-26-2020, 10:02 PM
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Putting powder and pushing a bullet down a barrel with a live primer in it sounds like a good way to shoot your self. Just saying.
I would agree, just curious as to if it would be legal. It wouldn't take much to make a “case” that could be primed after the powder and bullet were loaded.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-29-2020, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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My states definition of a muzzle loading firearm as far as hunting is as follows. Muzzleloading firearm is a firearm loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a minimum bore of .44 inch. Now technically you could load this through the breach easily but bullet would not be seated properly. But you could do the same with any inline muzzleloader also . I would not want to tread a breach plug behind a charge though. What if you fill a 45-70 cartridge 90 % with lead and drill out as needed and expand primer pocket for easy removal of primer. One person mentioned blow by being an issue the partially filed lead case may allow for expansion and seal itself. Anyone know where one could buy .458 sabots?
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