Handloader Mag, June 2017 FAKE NEWS? - Page 2 - Graybeard Outdoors
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
nanuk-o-dah-nort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Smack Dab in the middle of God's Country! Saskatchewan, Of Course!
Posts: 2,030
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcrank1 View Post
As to the belted cases thinning, IMO it would be because the chamber reaming is so sloppy that the case isnt really headspacing off the belt and the chamber is too long.


EXACTLY!


if you create a false shoulder.... so what? that is to hold the head against the bolt face/breechblock. if the Belt was doing that as stated in the article, the false shoulder would do NOTHING


any ANYONE ever had a problem with brass stretching at the case head when forming 30-30AI, or KHornet? Or how about fireforming new brass in a military chamber in a SMLE??

what about putting a long bullet in and jamming it into the rifling? once the gun goes off, you would have the situation of a totally unsupported cartridge, yet that is not a factor, as brass expands ALL directions... it doesn't stretch forward from the BACK END!

I am ONLY responsible for what I say
I am NOT responsible for what you THINK I said
nanuk-o-dah-nort is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 09:13 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 378
Default

I've fire formed lots of Hornet brass to K-Hornet. It is very easy to see by looking at the brass after firing, the unformed part has the original sheen and the part that moved to conform to the chamber has a different appearance. All the movement occurs at the front of the case.

I think that author may have been thinking of how, after repeated firing and then resizing brass with a lot of head space, brass flow may cause thinning in the web area. I'll defer to those here with more experience though.
AccelR8 is offline  
post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-24-2017, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
nanuk-o-dah-nort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Smack Dab in the middle of God's Country! Saskatchewan, Of Course!
Posts: 2,030
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AccelR8 View Post
I'
I think that author may have been thinking of how, after repeated firing and then resizing brass with a lot of head space, brass flow may cause thinning in the web area. I'll defer to those here with more experience though.

read the article, if you can find it... your experience is the same as mine. You'll be shaking your head also

I am ONLY responsible for what I say
I am NOT responsible for what you THINK I said
nanuk-o-dah-nort is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 09:22 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 378
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanuk-o-dah-nort View Post
read the article, if you can find it... your experience is the same as mine. You'll be shaking your head also
Well sir I tried to read it. The issue is on line as a "sample issue" but the on line version jumps from page 31 to 58, skipping over the article in question. I'm not going to buy an issue, I learned long ago that gun magazines these days are nothing more than cover to cover advertisements and I firmly believe that if someone wants me to read their advertisements I should not be paying to so so! For me it's the principle of the thing.
AccelR8 is offline  
post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 09:41 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Central Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 12,292
Default

Fwiw, Ive heard that magazines make all their real money off the advertisers and could give away the rag; yeah, like thats gonna happen when people will actually send them 'free money' for subscriptions.......
I have dropped all mine, too much for too little, got to where one one or two articles were of interest, then we have such as what this thread is about, sad. Id rather read through a mag from 30 years ago, or more.
gcrank1 is offline  
post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 10:42 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 378
Default

I remember when I was a kid my Dad got American Rifleman from the NRA. Those issues back then were filled with detailed, well written pieces on technical subjects, how-to articles, history, very interesting stuff. I remember lots of text and not so much photography. Of course part of that perception may be the memories of a young boy who is now a grumpy old man.

My career was in a different industry but two of my coworkers collaborated on writing an article they intended to submit to a magazine, a trade journal. They would have been considered subject matter experts. They naively submitted it to a magazine and the editor contacted them and said he'd love to run it and it would cost x-amount of dollars. They said, we don't understand. We thought you would pay us for the article. He explained no, you get paid by the manufacturers you mention in the article, then you take some of that and pay us to publish. It's all advertising.

Now I know gun mags have paid staff writers but the above illustrates that after all, it's all advertising.
AccelR8 is offline  
post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 12:58 PM
Moderator
 
conan the librarian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 22,747
Default

I remember that golden age of American Rifleman too. They were like National Geographics at the time. Nobody wanted to throw them away, and people would give them and trade them to keep them in circulation. That's how I got all my old issues of American Rifleman. I remember one gun shop that even had a rack of back issues that they had for sale. (Although I'm a life member, I did call NRA to discontinue my subscription to American Rifleman. I just wasn't reading it anymore.)
conan the librarian is offline  
post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-25-2017, 01:18 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 378
Default

I get the digital addition of American Rifleman (save a tree). All my dad's old ones are long gone. I'd love to have them today.

On the subject of belted magnums and case stretching; I do have a 300 WM which is a belted magnum but the little amount of shooting I do with it is mostly factory ammo so I can't speak from experience. I had made a comment previously about firing and resizing with excessive head space but I was thinking of a non belted cartridge. After some research it appears that the concern with a belted magnum is if you have a long (maximum dimension) chamber and you're repeatedly full length resizing, pushing the case shoulder back to a minimum dimension. So you can have good tight head space because of the belt and still have a case that is being repeatedly stretched long and then squashed short.

But that's a little different than what the article was talking about which is fire forming.
AccelR8 is offline  
post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-26-2017, 12:17 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
nanuk-o-dah-nort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Smack Dab in the middle of God's Country! Saskatchewan, Of Course!
Posts: 2,030
Default

Trudat

the issue with FL resizing is you squeeze the body down first, pushing the shoulder forward, then the have a tight hold on the body, and push the shoulder back.

the theory is, brass will slowly move to the neck/shoulder area causing seating/chambering issues

and that brass has to come from somewhere, but I don't think it is from the case head area, but more mid to upper body

one of the die makers had an excellent article on this, and it explained why my buddy's tight chambered 300WM wasn't able to chamber FL resized cases. 1F and new chambered fine. we ground a hint off the bottom of the FL sizer and problem solved. He didn't want to just neck size, as this was his hunting gun.

I am ONLY responsible for what I say
I am NOT responsible for what you THINK I said
nanuk-o-dah-nort is offline  
post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-26-2017, 11:00 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Central Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 12,292
Default

The shoulder is a restriction (just like your thumb over the end of a water hose), the pressure from the case body (expanding gas) hits the internal wall of the shoulder and pushes it forward (like the water in the hose trying to push your thumb off) while it is releasing the bullet, which has resistance to moving (intertia) and the brass is still being pushed forward likely until that projectile exits the case mouth and there is a pressure drop. The brass 'thins' back at the junction of the case wall and case head.
This happens every time the case is resized 'too short' for the 'too long' chamber. The cartridge manufacturers have no control over this 'fit', we as reloaders do, and it is our due diligence to make the best fit possible rather than just continuously full length resizing for a too long chamber. Our reward is 'custom fit brass' to our rifles, which last longer and may be as good, or better, in accuracy and far less expensive.
This thinning is bad enough in typical cases and possibly even worse in rimmed (and a belted case is just a rim in a different place) where the back end is locked in. The belted cases may exhibit case head failure more quickly because they are typically used for high pressure loadings.
Make the rim and shoulder contact their respective 'seats' at the same time in chambering and happiness and long life will be found.
gcrank1 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Graybeard Outdoors forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome