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about spit my coffee out.

7K views 135 replies 13 participants last post by  Dee 
#1 ·
#2 ·
You have a valid and important point..there is sin in almost any organization!

...But did you notice how the SBC didn't conceal, but brought such activity out in the open, no cloak & dagger, but pointing it out in a very public manner.

By keeping it open, chances are that were a real case of forcible rape or child molestation to be discovered, the law would be involved.

.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Covering up abuse has been a hot topic in the SBC for years. I was at the T4G conference in Louisville, last spring. A guy who is usually a keynote speaker was not there voluntarily. The big dogs in the SBC have backed him for years. It appears that they supported him when he may have needed discipline. This was because of how he handled an abuse allegation/case within his church. The SBC isn’t acting with a lot of virtue but reacting to try to get back in front of the wagon that has been rolling down the hill.

If they are actively and publicly rooting this stuff out in five years I’ll believe that they have reformed. Until then the pattern makes them look non different than the next denomination. The denomination has figuratively been caught with its pants down.
 
#6 ·
I started questioning the SBC when Richard Land started drifting out into globalism.
Then when the SBC started endorsing Rick Warren, I was done. That was some 10 years or more ago.
You have to look at these "SBC churches" on an individual basis, some are much better, or worse, than others.
Not so much as for their cover ups, because I don't see that much of it.
But for their move toward a softer globalist, user friendly gospel.

Some SBC churches, depending on local leadership have not drifted that far, but some, like mine jumped head first into the new, softer, mega church style gospel, and their attendance took a huge hit.
 
#7 ·
That’s the problem. The SBC is an organization but has no effective hierarchy like the Catholic Church. Each church acts independently in government and to some degree doctrine. They join together for such things as missions and educational institutions. Because of this there is likely no way to get an idea of how many such cases have been covered up within the SBC.

In my opinion these publicly visible displays should be accepted as virtue signaling until the denomination demonstrates that they are going after this issue and the abusers. I noted that the gentleman in question voluntarily removed himself as a speaker at T4G. From what I understand he did so, NOT because the organizers asked it of him, but because he knew that the attendees were not happy with the handling of the incident.
 
#8 ·
To Dee’s observations the sad part of the issue is that the guys that I’m talking about are the ones who were “directing the SBC back to its origins”. They did little to nothing publicly to address the incident.

With the governmental style of the Catholic Church these things will be more visible in the public eye. With the good old boy bubba centric leadership that governs independent SBC congregations the statistics will be high. I’d say that Catholic Priests, Baptist Preachers get as horny as Jimmy Swaggart and do something about it. It’s just easier to cover up the aftermath in a small independent congregation.
 
#10 ·
I’d bet a wad on it.

I say that based on seeing how this one incident was handled and hushed and many think an”big name” protected. I presently am a member of a SBC church. I been a member of two. I’ve seen the good old boy system and mentality ruin people. I’ve seen it first hand.

I watched three pastors be eviscerated publicly by a bunch of Deacons who couldn’t spell Bible. The three pastors were guilty. Guilty of preaching the word and guilty of not pushing for programs and numbers of baptisms.

If a deacon board will do that I’m in for 10k that they will be Johnny on the spot to cover a sex abuse scandal. I’ll bet on that every time.
 
#12 ·
The Advisory Study, which worked in collaboration with the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC), conducted interviews with hundreds of sexual abuse survivors, as well as church leaders and national experts in the field, according to the report. The report -- which includes testimonies from several survivors -- seeks "to begin to educate our churches on the abuse crisis, equip our churches to care well for survivors, and prepare our churches to prevent abuse




The paragraph posted is from a report on the report. I’d like to know the methodology that the committee used to isolate and uncover cases. Was it an in depth look where they dug as deeply as they could or was simply based on known complaints.

When they have prosecuted pastors and they are serving jail time for these abuses I’ll believe that they are serious. My experience in local congregations and watching the controversy around C J Mahaney leaves me with little more than skepticism.
 
#13 ·
You’ve been in the SBC for a good bit based on your posts over the years. That being the case you’ve seen the good ol boy system at work. Deacons who are deacons because they are the prominent and successful in the community rather than the most spiritually qualified.

With your experience with pit bull owners, as a law enforcement officer and as a Christian who has been within the SBC do you think it’s a few isolated cases or an institutional problem?
 
#14 · (Edited)
Well, the few times I've seen it, it wasn't covered up, it was dealt with as soon as it was found out.

Your not posting ANY percentage facts concerning the issue.

And what have pitbulls got to do with southern Baptist churches.

Are you feeling threatened because I'm asking for statistical facts, and percentages per number of churches, with your blanket statement "guess"?

You can fill a stadium up with testaments of unlawful police involved shootings but, actually percentage wise I think its around 1% nationwide.
 
#15 ·
" It’s just easier to cover up the aftermath in a small independent congregation. "

I happen to disagree with that particular assessment . While I have no direct experience with the Southern Baptists, I do have experience with independent Baptists.

I doubt there is much difference between the two, but they would have to be some kind of cult members, to be as doggedly obedient to wrong doing, as your statement indicates.

That is not something that would routinely happen. Sure, in every congregation there will be some..perhaps few, perhaps many, who will, "follow a leader to heII", and as we all know.. "The road to heII, is paved with good intentions"..

Please recall, Baptists are known as "the people of the book"..that is very Biblically oriented. For any serious Christian who is oriented by the book, it would be almost fruitless to expect him/her to accept outright sin..which is clearly dealt with in 'the book'.

That is perhaps why you see "church splits" among the independents.

.
 
#16 ·
Why would I be intimidated? I think that Ive been pretty open to say that I’m expressing my opinion. My opinion is based on observation of this issue within the SBC a bunch of years, my own experiences with the denominational and individual church governance and an understanding of Human nature. It’s really all about human nature

The reality that Greer fielded a council and publicly addressed the issue is a powerful evidence that they are dealing with a corporate problem rather than a few isolated cases.

I’ve followed the C J Mahaney issue for five to six years. I’ve had ongoing conversations with a conservative pastor within the SBC. He and many other such pastors have been critical of how sexual abuse is addressed within the conference. I’ve watched the big names and how they have handled the controversy around C J Mahaney.
 
#19 ·
Why would I be intimidated?
In going back and rereading I think I misunderstood your comparison.

As a general rule pitbull owners are "idealistic" of the breed, and really unaware of its characteristics, which causes them to be "unrealistic" in their expectations of the dogs nature.
Of course there are always exceptions in every breed.

But back to the issue.

With the thousands of small to large southern Baptist churches.

What are the percentages of sexual abuse per capita?

And in that very small percentage? What percentage are covered up, or attempted to be covered up?

Actual stats? Not opinions from anyone.
 
#17 ·
Stats don’t exist because the SBC isn’t really even a denomination, never mind a hierarchy like Catholics. Denominations have a singular doctrinal statement which the SBC does not have. The BF&M is non-binding. To be SBC a church simply has to send a few bucks to the cooperative program, not even a fixed percentage or minimum. In that environment no stats are possible, especially across 50,000 churches with an average pastor turnover of 18 months.

It may be virtue signaling. But worse still is the external expectation that the SBC act like a collective when they aren’t. Literally anything passed at the convention no matter how woke it sounds or who woke you wish it was is simply a statement that a percentage of those attending decided to make. At best it’s reflective of 10% of the entire SBC. But it makes folks on all sides get fired up.
 
#20 ·
no impossible for same reason.

By the way stop assuming it’s all covered up. What we have are anecdotes of pastors routinely fired and jailed. Independent churches are not obligated to report to a higher authority and often to protect the victim from scandal will leave it with police.
 
#23 ·
I am well aware that preaching "life expectancy" for most preachers is short, some say 18 mos on average, but that doesn't seem to wash around here.

Our last pastor served our church from 1984 until 2002, when health problems forced his retirement.

Our present pastor has served from 2002 until present...and we are doing swimmingly well, although we don't care to consider that in a few short years, his retirement will be facing us.

When we do find ourselves in need of a pastor, we elders are very comprehensive in our questioning and examination of the candidates.

It is our job to know what our local people expect and respect, so we act in a republican manner..representing their wishes, while keeping the tenets of the faith in mind.

..
 
#24 ·
Ahhhhhh, but that's not what it looks like to outsiders, from the outside.

You old farts have to be hiding something. 😎
 
#26 ·
I am not saying that EVERY church in our area is just honey and roses.

You could take a ride over narrow country roads from my house, for about 14 miles, to find a community church..there preaches a fine man,
a fine man who leaves that church soon.

Wrong preaching? bad doctrine? Neither, but one elderly blue haired woman, decided she did not like Pastor Mac. ..And this is not the first time for her.

Although she was almost alone in her demands, Mac did not fight her, since he believes the rest of the congregation have to make their statement now, or they will at no time in the reasonably near future, confront this demanding dowager, and they will likely remain confused.

He lives nearer to where I do, and will continue his ministry at a county jail about 40 miles away..a jail where my grandson is employed as a corrections officer.

He owns his home..and now has to consider moving if an offer comes. Sad that such a fine , humble man of God has to go through such abuse.

Fortunately, his wife retires this month from a local library, so that much is taken care of. ..Prayers for Pastor Mac..please.

.
 
#27 ·
My preacher took over the job on the death of our last preacher.
He's been in the job now for 10 or 12 years and I don't see him leaving any time soon.

Also, my Church split a few years before we got there.
It was child abuse by the youth minister.
The Church elders handed it over to the police, but a few wanted it to be handled in some other way,(like catholics :)) and when they didn't get their way, they left. Good riddance.
 
#29 ·
Those people did right PM when they handed it over to the police. The worst thing any organization of trust can do, is to try to cover any sin up.

Such stuff is like a cancer...you cover a cancerous boil up with makeup, and sooner or later it breaks through.cover again..and it breaks through again !

Best way is to get right down to the bottom of things and root out the problem, then healing can start.

A few years ago, our legion ran into a problem. We had a young man who handled money for the post..who having a habit, mishandled a 10-12 thousands of dollars.

Some wanted to cover it up and just keep the guy paying back the money. I demurred, explaining as above, why it was a bad idea..

Actually, if we were to allow the theft to "slide', I could visualize his payments starting off on time..then becoming erratic, before drying up entirely..

Then what could we do..? If we complained to the law a couple years late..they would likely laugh at us..it would then be exposed, and we would be a laughing stock.

So, we did it the legal way, we were paid back in 3-4 years, and today, he is clean and a successful over-the-road truck driver.

.
 
#28 ·
Even though both are hideous in God's eyes, I do not find heterosexual abuse as slimy as homosexual pedophilia.


So for me a direct comparison does not exist.


Too many today want to compare some dude having sex with 16 year old dressed and passing bouncers as a 20 to 30 something as the same as some sleaze ball raping a 10 year old.
Such generalizations to me show people using the victims to show how morally wonderful they are compared to the purp. but to me they are the sleazy ones profiting from others misery.
I.E. they do not really give a ****.
 
#31 ·
Greear, 46, who was elected last year as the denomination’s youngest leader, commissioned an advisory group in collaboration with the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC), which released a 52-page report Saturday on sexual abuse over the past 20 years. In this Tuesday, June 12, 2018 file photo, rape survivor and abuse victim advocate Mary DeMuth speaks during a rally protesting the Southern Baptist Convention’s treatment of women outside the convention’s annual meeting at the Kay Bailey Hutchison Convention Center in Dallas. On Tuesday, June 11, 2019, the Southern Baptist Convention gathers for its annual national meeting with one sobering topic _ sex abuse by clergy and staff _ overshadowing all others. (AP Photo/Jeffrey McWhorter) The group has worked to get every SBC church up to speed in its awareness, prevention, and care practices for abuse.




Did anyone actually read the article. No coverups? Give me a break. 52 page report concerning 20 years of coverups and that's just over the last 20 years. This wasn't posted to single out the Baptist church. It was posted to show the hypocrisy some here have tearing down the catholic church for the exact same thing that happens in all religious sects and about anywhere that people have power over others. Schools, Police, Politics and its covered up in ALL of them. Funny how some of the biggest attackers back peddle when its there own church or there own job. By the way I sure wouldn't defend catholic priest by saying the percentage of catholic priests that molest is well below 1 percent. That's one out of every 100 priests!! If a police officers in this country have 1 percent unlawful or mistaken shoots someone is VERY wrong. Theres probably no profession in the country short of politics that has more coverups then police. If 1 percent are admitted I cringe thinking how many are covered up to keep the police dept from taking heat. Wonder how much illegal money is taken by cops every year to turn a blind eye to crime. How many tickets are forgotten by some black mail on the side of a country road. How many bad shootings are covered up with bald faced lies that not only the shooter is guilty of but his partner and in some case the whole dept. Isnt just police either. Like I said politics are full of corruption even our military has covered up rapes and molestations for 100s of years. Yup Glass houses. If you tell me your chosen church is immune to this then ill tell you they are just doing a better job of covering it up!!!
 
#35 ·
Your are right bugeye that it happens in every religion. Even after its reported it continues in EVERY religion. NONE are immune to this. So where are you going to go? Post something ridiculous like


Taking care of it at the time it happened not only gets the problem out from among the people, it insures credibility to the church elders, and the congregation as a whole.


when in this case that certainly didn't happen. Read it. It was covered up before it was exposed. I think id fear a religion that it hasn't been drug out in the public more then one being attacked all the time. All it shows me is that church is much better at hiding and covering up.


In a way its much easier for a small church that answers to nobody to cover up things like this. Expose a minister at your "church of the woods" and the church dies. Expose your catholic priest or Methodist minister and the religion you believe in will still be there next week. Hopefully with a new preacher. If you think the catholic church is bad then ask yourself what it would be like if those priests had nobody to answer to? If those church elders knew that if they called the cops it might be the end of there church?????


So please tell me what church has never had a molester or covered it up. What church have you found to go to on sunday that innocent of all of this? Because you don't know it happened that you don't know your pastor or elders covered something up sure as heck doesn't mean it never happened. Personaly I think Jesus would rather have me stick around and try to change something wrong in my church then run to another then another then another chasing something that doesn't exist and condemning everyone along the way. QUOTE=bugeye;2055905552]Abuse of children happens in every church.
If it happened in my "independant" Church, and the elders didn't turn it over to the police, I would leave that church and find another.

If I attended a church that is governed by an organization, and the organization covered up child abuse, I would leave that denomination.
You know, lutheran, methodist, catholic, etc. and become something else.

If a person continues to identify with an organization that is guilty of hiding child abuse, that person is as guilty as the actual abuser in the eyes of GOD.
Don't believe me?? Try 1 Thess. 5:21-22[/QUOTE]
 
#37 ·
Here's where the problem almost invariably starts.

People assign too much power to the guy standing behind the pulpit ! Our small Church has 4 elders now..John, Bob, myself and the Pastor.

As provided in scriptures, elders are elected by the ecclesia. If one of us gets squirrely the others get him squared away.

It was about 3 years ago that one of our elders, Dave was taken in by the new wave of British/Israelism or "replacement" theology. The other 3 tried to counsel him out of his error, but he clung to it, so a decision was made.

The people elected John in his place.

If Bob, John, myself or the Pastor were to wander into false doctrine, we would be moved. This also applies to our personal life and conduct, since we are the
"face" of the local church. If one of us were to wander into false doctrine..or started acting creepy, we would be gone, and rightly so.(Re: Matt 18:15-21).

Of course, living in a rather small, close community the task is simplified. Obviously, in a larger organization it is more difficult for the ecclesia to make those judgements. So, as far as I am concerned, a smaller body is beneficial.

However, the people must be well schooled in the Bible, which has been my experience with independent bodies. Fortunately, we have the word in our hands, so there is no good reason for ignorance of it.

Fresh air and sunlight are great cleansing agents !

.
 
#106 ·
When a church becomes a tax exempt Org.and appears to glorify in numbers of a congregation, it has become a political org. imo, and appears to be more interested in appearance than substance.

Matthew 18:20 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

When raising my family A place to worship was more important so our children could be among their peers in a healthy Christian environment.
Today, I don't belong to a Church Org. or attend services in a specific building.
 
#38 ·
Lloyd, when we started in our current Church, we knew of the past problem.
However, we believe that nothing has happened since, because it would have been leaked by someone.
And if the elders had hidden something, I'd be out of there.
I don't go to Church to reform a church. I go to worship GOD, period.
There's plenty of Churches out there with Godly people in them.
And it doesn't take a genius to notice if something's not right with a church.

I will not waste worship time wondering which elders or members are guilty.
And I believe a church that covers abuse is satans church.
 
#39 ·
Bugeye I don't get involved much in church politics. Im more the type that judges a man by how he treats me then by sterotypes. I go to a catholic church not because its better or worse or my priest is the best. I go because I believe in the basic principles of our church. I go there like you to pray and could care less what the elders or choir members or the knights of Columbus or some little old ladys at bible study think. Im not so stupid or full of hate and predudice to think that because one out of a 1000 catholic priests might be pedophile that I should then walk away from my core beliefs. Why would I when im just as likely to find a pedophile in your church or even my kids school or the local police dept and know its either being covered up or probably at least has been in the past. I think the catholic church has done some positive things concerning this. I wish they would have done them on there own and it wouldn't have took the scandals to get it started but maybe that's God working I one of his stange ways. I know one thing for sure. the catholic church and its priests and bishops are under the microscope today. They cant burp without someone knowing it. If anything its taken the heat off of the pedophiles in other churches and places or kids go. Id probably be more nervous if I was a nervous type about my kids going to a non catholic church or church activity right now today. Like I said though it is sad that it got as far as it did without the church addressing it. catholics will have to wear that for MANY years if not forever. But if your looking for a church without sin, good luck with that.
Lloyd, when we started in our current Church, we knew of the past problem.
However, we believe that nothing has happened since, because it would have been leaked by someone.
And if the elders had hidden something, I'd be out of there.
I don't go to Church to reform a church. I go to worship GOD, period.
There's plenty of Churches out there with Godly people in them.
And it doesn't take a genius to notice if something's not right with a church.

I will not waste worship time wondering which elders or members are guilty.
And I believe a church that covers abuse is satans church.
 
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