Fruits vs Gifts vs Offices - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 05:36 AM Thread Starter
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Default Fruits vs Gifts vs Offices

Rabbit trail over in Ephesians 6 seemed to be about gifts and offices. I recommended those folks start a separate thread, but I may as well since it was my recommendation.

Ephesians 4:16 on "gifts": Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Note that SOME are given to be pastors and teachers, SOME others to be apostles, SOME others to be prophets, SOME others to be evangelists. Everyone is not given these gifts, and not everyone necessarily gets any of these gifts, only SOME do. Christ does this, and its for the benefits of ALL. But only SOME get these gifts, and they line up with functions within the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12-13, Paul says more: Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Again, all have the spirit, but to one is given one gift, to another is a different gift. But here it says in vs.7 that the manifestation of the Spirit, which is used synonymously with gift in the grammar, is "given to every man." These gifts then are of a different kind than the ones mentioned in Ephesians 4. These read like a particular ability or skill, while the Ephesians 4 reads like task or a role. The two may work together, but not necessarily so. One may have a manifestation of the Spirit, and not be given to be a pastor, teacher, evangelist, prophet, etc. Both passages indicate unique qualities that are not universally shared by all Christians, but two different types or kinds of gifts, again the ones in Ephesians associated with a role, while in Corinthians not so much.

What about fruits? Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." These are general fruits, expected of all believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is no "some" or "to one" language here. This is for all of us to bear in our daily walk. And Paul indicates that against these there is no law, or regulation, or qualification ... depending on your version.

For the "gifts" in Ephesians 4, there are qualifications; prophets must be tested. Pastors and teachers must meet the qualifications in Timothy, and so on. For the "gifts" in 1st Corinthians 12, Paul later says that they may pass away, which implies they are seasonal ... but faith, hope and love will persist, the greatest being love.

Then along comes Peter, in 2 Peter:1, "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This reads parallel to Paul's fruits in Galatians; these are things "given" to us by Jesus ... all of us .. and if they abound in us, we will never be "unfruitful."

Any other passages on gifts, fruits, or offices that pertain?
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 02:20 PM
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Thank you good sir, that absolutely delineates that those given the abilities to spread the Gospel in a formal matter area special but that all Christians should add certain virtues if they wish to flourish in and with their faith

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 03:18 PM
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Thank you good sir, that absolutely delineates that those given the abilities to spread the Gospel in a formal matter area special but that all Christians should add certain virtues if they wish to flourish in and with their faith
Agreed

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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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As to evangelism, Paul charges Timothy in 2 Timothy 4, I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Timothy was a pastor, that was his Christ called role in the church. There is no indication that he had the gift of evangelism, but he is famously charged to do the work of an evangelist. Against the backdrop of all the other passages on gifts/roles/fruits, we have to take the letter as written, from Paul to Timothy - its personal. The header in 2 Tim 1:1 is from Paul to Timothy ... not to the general church. As believers we can benefit from reading that conversation to know what ought to be expected of a pastor, and what ought to be expected of us. We should expect pastors to do the work of an evangelist eventhough its not their call.

Remember too from Ephesians 4 the role of Pastor-Teacher is different than Evangelist. They are not the same office or gift. Someone who fills the pulpit of a church every week evangelizing is not doing the work of a Pastor, which is to feed the already converted sheep. That one should be out finding the lost, using that gift in hopes of their conversion so that they might then fall under the teaching of someone else: a Pastor/Teacher. That one will then disciple the sheep. The church is already saved; the lost are not in the church. Paul here is charging Timothy, do your job as a Pastor and preach the word to the church, exhort, etc.. And then go outside the four walls and do the work of an evangelist among the lost, eventhough you're not gifted to it. Jesus says in John 4:37, one sows and another reaps. All Timothy may do is sow seed; someone with the gift of evangelism may reap the harvest.

I always think of Billy Graham, a gifted evangelist. But he did not enter into lifelong discipleship relationships with those he led to Christ. No he was very clear on that - he handed new converts off to local churches with whom he had already coordinated. His job was evangelism; the church had pastors.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 04:37 PM
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Good stuff he here.

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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 06:32 PM
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That certainly clarifies the distinctions.

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If one thinks, one must reach conclusions.
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
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I was reading 1 Timothy this morning and was reminded of this, 4: 13-14. "Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery." There is no mention of evangelism here, and while I admire the KJV, the punctuation separates a continuing thought ... reading, exhortation, doctrine were all related to the gift he is not to neglect. Presbytery here is the KJV translation of presbuteros, which other versions translate Elders. Timothy here is a gifted teacher, called to the office of pastor teacher, confirmed by the Elders, and in the preceding vs. 12, Paul encourages him to grow in his fruit: love, faith, purity. Thought that was a nice tight passage to bring it all together.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 09:01 PM
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Thank you good sir, that absolutely delineates that those given the abilities to spread the Gospel in a formal matter area special but that all Christians should add certain virtues if they wish to flourish in and with their faith

What is, "delivering the Gospel in a FORMAL manner" ?

Are not all Christians supposed to share the "good news" with the unsaved, whenever, however they can?

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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 09:19 PM
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What is, "delivering the Gospel in a FORMAL manner" ?
Are not all Christians supposed to share the "good news" with the unsaved, whenever, however they can?
Ordained ministers of the word, which should mean unless they got their degree in the mail, they have studied the faith to know who , what , where and why it is as it is .

The Bible in the previous posts separates the preacher, teacher and other ministers of the Faith from those who are simply persons with the Faith in their hearts.
Any person can spread the word but there are a special few who can instruct the future instructors of the Faith so to not let it be twisted or corrupted the preventing of such which is why we now have the Christian Bible we now have with oddity removed.

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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 09:39 PM
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For the "gifts" in Ephesians 4, there are qualifications; prophets must be tested. Pastors and teachers must meet the qualifications in Timothy, and so on. For the "gifts" in 1st Corinthians 12, Paul later says that they may pass away, which implies they are seasonal ... but faith, hope and love will persist, the greatest being love.
TV preachers, or any preachers for that matter, cannot put their hands on you and yell HEAL and have anything happen.
Those that claim they can, have been proven frauds. "miracles" can occur through prayer by Jesus and only through him.
My wife attended a Church one day with a neighbor lady, and people started getting "the holy ghost" and speaking in tongues. (tongues as in Acts=languages, not gibberish) and the neighbor kept glancing at my wife like she was embarrassed for my wife to see it.
And of course they had no interpreter, since you can't interpret gibberish.

And there's my all time favorite, where the preacher puts his hand on your forehead and yells HEAL and the person falls backward, unconscious, into the arms of a previously placed "catcher," just like they rehearsed.

HEAVEN HAS A WALL, A GATE, AND A STRICT IMMIGRATION POLICY.
HEII HAS OPEN BORDERS. taken from fox news

DEMOCRATS/ABORTIONISTS SHOULD TAKE HEED OF THE FACT THAT BABIES ARE GOD'S MOST PRECIOUS.

MURDER BABIES AND YOU "WILL" BURN FOR ETERNITY.
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