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Fruits vs Gifts vs Offices

4K views 37 replies 10 participants last post by  mtdotcomm 
#1 ·
Rabbit trail over in Ephesians 6 seemed to be about gifts and offices. I recommended those folks start a separate thread, but I may as well since it was my recommendation.

Ephesians 4:16 on "gifts": Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Note that SOME are given to be pastors and teachers, SOME others to be apostles, SOME others to be prophets, SOME others to be evangelists. Everyone is not given these gifts, and not everyone necessarily gets any of these gifts, only SOME do. Christ does this, and its for the benefits of ALL. But only SOME get these gifts, and they line up with functions within the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12-13, Paul says more: Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Again, all have the spirit, but to one is given one gift, to another is a different gift. But here it says in vs.7 that the manifestation of the Spirit, which is used synonymously with gift in the grammar, is "given to every man." These gifts then are of a different kind than the ones mentioned in Ephesians 4. These read like a particular ability or skill, while the Ephesians 4 reads like task or a role. The two may work together, but not necessarily so. One may have a manifestation of the Spirit, and not be given to be a pastor, teacher, evangelist, prophet, etc. Both passages indicate unique qualities that are not universally shared by all Christians, but two different types or kinds of gifts, again the ones in Ephesians associated with a role, while in Corinthians not so much.

What about fruits? Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." These are general fruits, expected of all believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is no "some" or "to one" language here. This is for all of us to bear in our daily walk. And Paul indicates that against these there is no law, or regulation, or qualification ... depending on your version.

For the "gifts" in Ephesians 4, there are qualifications; prophets must be tested. Pastors and teachers must meet the qualifications in Timothy, and so on. For the "gifts" in 1st Corinthians 12, Paul later says that they may pass away, which implies they are seasonal ... but faith, hope and love will persist, the greatest being love.

Then along comes Peter, in 2 Peter:1, "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This reads parallel to Paul's fruits in Galatians; these are things "given" to us by Jesus ... all of us .. and if they abound in us, we will never be "unfruitful."

Any other passages on gifts, fruits, or offices that pertain?
 
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#4 ·
As to evangelism, Paul charges Timothy in 2 Timothy 4, I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Timothy was a pastor, that was his Christ called role in the church. There is no indication that he had the gift of evangelism, but he is famously charged to do the work of an evangelist. Against the backdrop of all the other passages on gifts/roles/fruits, we have to take the letter as written, from Paul to Timothy - its personal. The header in 2 Tim 1:1 is from Paul to Timothy ... not to the general church. As believers we can benefit from reading that conversation to know what ought to be expected of a pastor, and what ought to be expected of us. We should expect pastors to do the work of an evangelist eventhough its not their call.

Remember too from Ephesians 4 the role of Pastor-Teacher is different than Evangelist. They are not the same office or gift. Someone who fills the pulpit of a church every week evangelizing is not doing the work of a Pastor, which is to feed the already converted sheep. That one should be out finding the lost, using that gift in hopes of their conversion so that they might then fall under the teaching of someone else: a Pastor/Teacher. That one will then disciple the sheep. The church is already saved; the lost are not in the church. Paul here is charging Timothy, do your job as a Pastor and preach the word to the church, exhort, etc.. And then go outside the four walls and do the work of an evangelist among the lost, eventhough you're not gifted to it. Jesus says in John 4:37, one sows and another reaps. All Timothy may do is sow seed; someone with the gift of evangelism may reap the harvest.

I always think of Billy Graham, a gifted evangelist. But he did not enter into lifelong discipleship relationships with those he led to Christ. No he was very clear on that - he handed new converts off to local churches with whom he had already coordinated. His job was evangelism; the church had pastors.
 
#7 ·
I was reading 1 Timothy this morning and was reminded of this, 4: 13-14. "Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery." There is no mention of evangelism here, and while I admire the KJV, the punctuation separates a continuing thought ... reading, exhortation, doctrine were all related to the gift he is not to neglect. Presbytery here is the KJV translation of presbuteros, which other versions translate Elders. Timothy here is a gifted teacher, called to the office of pastor teacher, confirmed by the Elders, and in the preceding vs. 12, Paul encourages him to grow in his fruit: love, faith, purity. Thought that was a nice tight passage to bring it all together.
 
#10 ·
For the "gifts" in Ephesians 4, there are qualifications; prophets must be tested. Pastors and teachers must meet the qualifications in Timothy, and so on. For the "gifts" in 1st Corinthians 12, Paul later says that they may pass away, which implies they are seasonal ... but faith, hope and love will persist, the greatest being love.
TV preachers, or any preachers for that matter, cannot put their hands on you and yell HEAL and have anything happen.
Those that claim they can, have been proven frauds. "miracles" can occur through prayer by Jesus and only through him.
My wife attended a Church one day with a neighbor lady, and people started getting "the holy ghost" and speaking in tongues. (tongues as in Acts=languages, not gibberish) and the neighbor kept glancing at my wife like she was embarrassed for my wife to see it.
And of course they had no interpreter, since you can't interpret gibberish.

And there's my all time favorite, where the preacher puts his hand on your forehead and yells HEAL and the person falls backward, unconscious, into the arms of a previously placed "catcher," just like they rehearsed.
 
#11 ·
Let us be careful here and not drift into certain bad habits of other forums here. I for one am enjoying this.
 
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#14 ·
While your analogy appears more opinion than scriptural, I'll ask for scriptural reference, before I hit the delete button.
 
#16 ·
It's right there, read the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist.
It's what your bible says.
If you mean that below, they were directed to a particular target and forbidden any other.

Matthew
10
1 And the twelve disciples called together, he gave to them power of unclean spirits, that they should cast them out, and that they should heal all ache, and all sickness.

2 And these be the names of the twelve apostles; the first, Simon, that is called Peter, and Andrew, his brother; James of Zebedee, and John, his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew, publican; and James [of] Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;

4 Simon Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, which betrayed him.

5 Jesus sent these twelve, commanding to them, and saying, Go ye not into the way of heathen men, and enter ye not into the cities of Samaritans;

6 but rather go ye to the sheep of the house of Israel, that perished.

7 Soothly ye going preach, saying, for the kingdom of heavens shall nigh
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
Seems like the "how" of serving in an office vs manifestation of gifts vs bearing of fruits is the underlying contention. Romans 12:4-8 reads, "For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness."

One body, many members, and the members do not all have the same function ... having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them ... in proportion to our faith. Faith being measured as God has assigned each individual.

It would be natural to imagine that a regenerated/born again Christian would tell the ones they know about what Christ has done for them (i.e. evangelism). In fact, the entire universe does the exact same thing all the time, i.e. declare the good news of God and His love for His creation (general revelation). This is general, natural, and expected. If you're not excited about salvation then perhaps you need to return to your first love.

But some members have been given gifts to serve in a unique function in proportion to their faith, which has been measured to them by God, and their function might be evangelism. How they do it is different than how all of the rest of us do it, because it's their function, they have a gift, and they have faith measured to that function and gift. This is an office of the church - the evangelist, as the previous verses have said. It is not the same as the function of the pastor/teacher, or any other function.

This passage lists service, teaching, prophecy, exhortation, contribution, leading, acts of mercy as unique functions, not done by every member of the body. We beat people up over evangelism who are exercising their faith in their gift of service by taking care of the widows and the orphans; we make them feel as if their function is less than that of an evangelist, but its equally vital. We beat everybody up that isn't winning someone every week. We make everyone feel like they have to be a teacher, . But that just doesn't reconcile with scripture. Everyone has their own row to hoe, and you should be content with your own. Someone who has the gift, who is in the office, who is serving in the function for which God has measured out faith, will naturally always be "better" at it ... but that's their function. And they are not to think any more highly of themselves than you are, if you are likewise exercising the gift you've been given, in the function that is yours to serve. There is no clergy-laity divide, but there are unique roles in the church, and if its not yours to fill, get out the way and let the right person fill it while you go fill your role.

I think its ironic that everyone wants to teach or prophecy, since those are seen as authoritative, but few seek acts of mercy or contribution as their function in the church.
 
#23 ·
Dee

I don’t want to take the thread down a rabbit trail so I’m good with starting this in a new thread if it doesn’t relate directly enough to the flow of thought here.

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 2 Peter 1:3-8

From the starter post this passage and specifically this quote from Peter stands out “partakers of the Divine nature”. From what I’m finding it appears that Peter is speaking of our enjoyment of the nature of Christ in the knowledge and realization of Christ Himself and the imputed benefits received from Christ as believers. It looks like this then bears fruit or is something that is acted upon?
 
#25 ·
While I'm not totally on board personally with the "entire thought" projected in this conversation, I have no problem with rabbits chased as long as scriptural references are listed as to ones thought. And it is in the same ballpark.
 
#26 ·
The Baptism discussed in Acts, is the same Baptism of John. It was not the physical act it was the coming of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The gifts, today, are distributed to those who believe, at the Will of the Spirit--not at the demand of the person. Blessings
 
#29 · (Edited)
ironglow, I've never seen so many, have so much trouble, with so few, and so simple rules.

I'll repeat them, just for you.

Do not mention ANY denomonations.
Do not post ANY references outside of actual scripture.

No books, no preachers, no theologians, no articles, no websites.

Just you, your Bible, and your opinion of the scripture in discussion.

Imagine yourself in a room full of Christian's, with no phones, no books, no commentarys, no mention of anyone's church, and no computers.

Just Bibles.

Why?

To isolate the Christian from all the outside influences, and rely ONLY on his own understanding OF SCRIPTURE. Something rarely done these days.

How hard could that possibly be?

This concept is so easy, it sadly laughable.

This concept is old, and tried, and true.
Old School "BIBLE" study.

My Sunday school class does it every single Sunday, and has, for decades.

BTW, I did edit out your churches name out.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Dee;
Please note..just FYI..when I mentioned the name of my local church..it has no denominational reference, primarily because it is intentionally non-denomination.

..And no, I don't mind you deleted the name, it was not generic to the discussion anyway.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, for my post #28... I made a some claims;

1) Matthew, Mark , Luke, John and Paul did not attend any Christian university.

2) Don't tell us the apostles were different, because they had direct contact with Jesus.

3) Christian training centers, or universities did not develop for several generations.

4) During the first couple hundred years, Christians were busy hiding or preaching in secret places.

Now, if the poster I answered, disagrees with me..how do w go about settling the disagreement, since it would require other historic sources.

Or do we just agree to disagree, in such a case ?

.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Well, you may have shot the rabbit.

Bob set it up to fail, by not using scripture to form his argument.

He gave an opinion.

You gave scripural example, which is well within the rules, and which by the way, I agree with.

Bob has a problem proving his opinion , unless he can make his argument using scripture, which I don't believe can be made.

It's like I've said before BIBLE ONLY.

Some folks cannot discuss the Bible using only a Bible, or form opinions using only scripture.

And some opinions given concerning scripture won't stand in context with supporting scripture.

Just because someone says that's the way it is, doesn't mean it is.

Remember the bereans?
 
#35 · (Edited)
This type of study isn't for the debater. Some ideas won't be accepted by others, but it won't be a free for all with dogmas, and doctrines coming from every direction.

If one is however, "looking for failure and flaw", in lue of study, they'll find it.
 
#36 ·
It isn’t looking for flaw. Flaw is built in. So we end up with a opinion of scripture forum. There are many things I i scripture that cannot be understood contextualized within the confines of our existence and experience. Simple reading of scripture doesn’t always provide a look into the original context.

Other tools become valuable to helping clear these things up. As the rules stand, and considering modern understanding, we are left with discussion of people’s personal interpretations of scripture which will well conflict but must be accepted as gospel because they prayed about it and that’s where they were “led”.

It’s a flawed approach. That may be why the sub forum isn’t used much.
 
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