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post #41 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 07:22 AM
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more like double the velocity expect bullet failures.


Ive shot deer and bear and pigs with everything from a 357 to a 500 Linebaugh. Now before I say this ill say I use cast bullets about 99 percent of the time but have killed with bullets like xtps. Place a 240 xtp behind the shoulder with remaining velocitys around 1100 fps and do the same with the bullet arriving at 1400 fps and youll have two deer laying right next to each other so you can compare results. Velocity means very little in a handgun. If you are using jacketed you need enough for expansion but not much more.


Ive shot deer with a 45 colt using a 250 cast at 900 fps that dropped in there tracks (more then one) Ive shot deer with a 454 shooting a 300 grain bullet at 1500 fps and have had them run a 100 yards before piling up. Knock down power doesn't exist. Ft lbs of energy has nothing to do with killing its just a mathematical way of measuring bullet weight x velocity. If you doubt that take a 100 lb bag of corn (about the same weight as a deer) and hang it from a tree limb. Shoot it with a 500 Linebaugh and see how little it moves. Your not knocking down anything.


What you need is the ability to drive a bullet into the vitals of an animal. If you do it and hit the central nervous system a deer will drop. If you don't hit the central nervous system its pot luck but more time then not a deer is going to run at least 25 yards. Its certainly not knocked down. Even for grins take something like a 300 weatherby and shoot that bag of corn and see how little even something like that moves that corn.. With a handgun we don't generate enough velocity to shock an animal. What we should look for is the ability to drive a bullet through any bone at any angle and make it to the boiler room. An xtp might give you a 6 inch wound channel with lots of damage and no exit wound. A cast bullet might get you stem to stern penetration and its long less dramatic wound channel is made up for by its length and has the advantage of giving you to holes EVERY time that leak blood so you can track them (and you will track if you hunt with a 357).


As to using lil gun like you do it probably wont hurt a thing. But I have to many guns that even a separate load for every 44 mag or 45 colt is a pain. Im not shooting deer at 200 yards with them and not even a 100. Anymore 50 is about all I could see sights good enough to attempt. It doesn't take one inch 50 yard groups to kill deer. If my load will do 2 inch at 25 yards its plenty accurate. If I can find a load that shoots 1.5-2 inch in all my 44s or 45s im a happy camper and would rather spend my time shooting then trying to work up a separate or especially a second load that matches poa. I don't load by the box I load by the coffee can. I think many would be better off if they went out and spent a hour a couple times a week shooting under field conditions then they would spending that time chasing a 1/4 inch better group loading and bench shooting. Its a free world though and everyone sure doesn't think like me and im far from the last word in handgun hunting. I guess for me I already have enough different powders stocked in the cabinet. I have no need to even attempt to find a load with a powder that might hurt my gun. Ive shot enough game with handguns to know without doubt that a 1/4 inch better group or a 100 fps means absolutely nothing at normal handgun hunting ranges. Now with a rifle that might have to make a 500 yard shot and something like the wind or your heartbeat can cause a bullet to open a group up at that distance a 1/4 inch difference or a 100 fps at a 100 yards might mean something to me.


You can call this post a ramble if you like but if you take one thing away from it believe this. There is no such thing as knock down power with a handgun. Closest thing your going to see anything like it is maybe with a xpt going 1600 fps our of 454 or 1800 out of a 460 smith. But in both of those cases your probably going to end up with a deer that looked like a bomb went off inside of it. But my guess is its still going to make it a few yards before it FALLS down.
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I do like the concepts of additional velocity and accuracy. Double the velocity and quadruple the knockdown power...and you dont harvest what you cant hit.... that being said....

We are all in agreement that a hot burning powder which will errode a throat/forcing cone over time but with exceptional accuracy and velocity has a place as hunting ammunition, but not on the practice range, and GOD knows I put in the time there! As long as POI is pretty close so sights can stay unchanged this seems like the way to go. Time on the gun range will let the 686 tell me its favorite diet....and that menu has grown!

Kynardsj, you mentioned 45 Long Colt as your favorite hunting round, well in a rifle, mine is a 54cal flinter. In handguns, both .357 magnum, and 50cal flinter.

Thank you for the well recieved input!

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post #42 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 07:59 AM
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The vast majority of my handgun shooting is with cast bullets over Unique in my 2 Ruger Vaqueros in 45 Colt. I load Lilgun in 2 guns, a 357 GP100 that spends most of it's life on the bedside table and my 45 Colt Encore rifle. Both jacketed bullets. The 357 for home protection and the Encore is my hunting rifle. The added fps in the rifle lets me take accurate shots out to 200 yards. I know the drop and adjust my scope accordingly. The Vaqueros do well out to around 50 yards with these old eyes aiming them. My goofing off bullets are 250 gr cast over 9 gr of Unique and my more serious ( walking around in the woods where the hogs are ) is a 300 gr cast over 10 gr of Unique. This load chronos at 1004 fps from my 4 5/8 old model Vaquero. I don't need speed when I'm doing close up work with a big bullet that carries that much kinetic energy. Different loads, bullets, powders, etc, is what I call a red truck, blue truck thing. Everyone has a choice and they're not always the same.

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post #43 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 08:00 AM Thread Starter
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You always have some thought provoking ideas lloyd. Some I agree with, others not so much, but still acknowlege their validity, so Im not claiming your wrong, just looking at things slightly differently.

My references to velocity and accuracy have merit in my eyes, and I firmly believe that crazy accurate guns are much more forgiving of shooter error than others that are just adequate for the intended purpose. Admittedly, the deer probably wont know the difference anyway.

Capability of a bullets performance with a given velocity is relevant to both bullet design, and the bullet choice made by the loader. Never meant to suggest a 240gr XTP should be pushed far beyond its limits and still expected to give flawless performance. Rather than that, a high velocity projectile of appropriate velocity, sectional density, BC, and construction would be far more desirable at extended ranges the shooter is proficient at, than say a .22LR at 100yds.

That stated, if you want to put a deer down on the spot with regularity, break both front shoulders. I hope that clears up my concept of knockdown power.

You surely do keep me thinking lloyd! Thanks for the post, I always find myself enjoying them!
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post #44 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 08:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kynardsj View Post
The vast majority of my handgun shooting is with cast bullets over Unique in my 2 Ruger Vaqueros in 45 Colt. I load Lilgun in 2 guns, a 357 GP100 that spends most of it's life on the bedside table and my 45 Colt Encore rifle. Both jacketed bullets. The 357 for home protection and the Encore is my hunting rifle. The added fps in the rifle lets me take accurate shots out to 200 yards. I know the drop and adjust my scope accordingly. The Vaqueros do well out to around 50 yards with these old eyes aiming them. My goofing off bullets are 250 gr cast over 9 gr of Unique and my more serious ( walking around in the woods where the hogs are ) is a 300 gr cast over 10 gr of Unique. This load chronos at 1004 fps from my 4 5/8 old model Vaquero. I don't need speed when I'm doing close up work with a big bullet that carries that much kinetic energy. Different loads, bullets, powders, etc, is what I call a red truck, blue truck thing. Everyone has a choice and they're not always the same.
Wow! We are in agreement on the vast majority of things firearm!

I deal with "moderns" as well as traditional. You seem to happily blend the two. I like it.

My modern guns typically use the largest accurate bullet the twist allows, but at velocity not really attainable with my traditional(flintlock) guns. This translates to "lite" bullets going pretty fast, and big heavy bullets at far lessor speeds for penetration. Both concepts drop game usually quickly when used responsibly.

You have the SD thing for your needs down pretty well, enough gun for the job , but not any more than you can control.

Thanks for sharing.
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post #45 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 07:28 AM
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you've made some good level headed choices in loads.
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Originally Posted by kynardsj View Post
The vast majority of my handgun shooting is with cast bullets over Unique in my 2 Ruger Vaqueros in 45 Colt. I load Lilgun in 2 guns, a 357 GP100 that spends most of it's life on the bedside table and my 45 Colt Encore rifle. Both jacketed bullets. The 357 for home protection and the Encore is my hunting rifle. The added fps in the rifle lets me take accurate shots out to 200 yards. I know the drop and adjust my scope accordingly. The Vaqueros do well out to around 50 yards with these old eyes aiming them. My goofing off bullets are 250 gr cast over 9 gr of Unique and my more serious ( walking around in the woods where the hogs are ) is a 300 gr cast over 10 gr of Unique. This load chronos at 1004 fps from my 4 5/8 old model Vaquero. I don't need speed when I'm doing close up work with a big bullet that carries that much kinetic energy. Different loads, bullets, powders, etc, is what I call a red truck, blue truck thing. Everyone has a choice and they're not always the same.

MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! STEEL FOR TANKS NOT FENCES!!!
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post #46 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 08:09 AM
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My references to velocity and accuracy have merit in my eyes, and I firmly believe that crazy accurate guns are much more forgiving of shooter error than others that are just adequate for the intended purpose. Admittedly, the deer probably wont know the difference anyway.

Accuracy is important. Don't get me wrong. I look at what I want to do with a gun and decide which bullets and powders will get me there and then I do try to find the best shooting combo. But I wont sacrifice my opinion of the performance I need out of a handgun over a 1/2 inch at 25 yards. The longest I will shoot open sighted handguns at today is 50 and if im going to use some long barreled scoped handgun and pretend im handgun hunting id rather use a rifle. Since im only shoot 50 yards that 1/2 difference translates to an inch. Very few shooters are even good enough to control there group at 300 yards that closely. When im shooting deer at 300 yards with a rifle I don't get to conserned about a 1/2 inch and sure don't at 50.


Velocity ill say this. Ive shot deer bear and pigs and even buffalo with cast bullets at about every level. Id be willing to be every gun I own if it was possible to stand 10 deer up in front of me at 50 yards and I shot 5 of them with a 44 mag using a 180hp 1400 fps and the other 5 with a 250 lfn or wfn at 1000 fps and shot them randomly you wouldn't be able to tell by watching them which was killed by slow cast and which was shot by fast jacketed. Heck ive seen buffalo hit by full power 500 Linebaugh loads keep eating. I also shot one buffalo on a day I was pig hunting. I had no idea I was going to be shooting a buffalo that day so took my 4 inch smith 44 mag to shoot pigs. When my buddy who owns the place pointed to a buffalo and said he wanted that one culled and told me to go for it. I was loaded with 250 swc's at a 1000 fps. Not what I consider buffalo medicine but it was what I had. I snuck up to about 30 yards and put on right behind the shoulder and the bullet came out the other side. The buffalo spun in a circle with blood spraying out of its mouth like from a garden hose and dropped dead right there.


We were all slack jawed. None of us had ever seen a buffalo die that quickly or react so much to a shot from any gun. Freak thing? No doubt. But it shows you that a 1000 fps cast bullet will do a lot of killing and velocity runs a distant second to bullet design. at normal handgun hunting ranges a 2 inch 25 yard gun is plenty accurate for big game. If you get there your ok. If you have extra time and want to fine tune more that's ok but don't sacrifice time you have to actually practice shooting in conditions your going to be hunting to sit on the bench chasing that 1/2 inch.


Funny thing is I thought like you when I was young and spent 7/8s of my shooting time on the bench. I worked and my time was limited. Today im retired and know better. When I get a new gun or want to try a new bullet out of an old gun I might sit on the bench for a day or maybe two. But I just don't find fun in that. Id much rather stand on my own two feet and shoot steal or clay pigeons ect. What I found is back in the day my one inch gun was a 3-4 inch gun in my hands under field conditions without a solid rest. Today a 2 inch gun is still a 2-3 inch gun in my hands under those same conditions. Even my rifle shooting has changed. Used to be I was obsessed by getting the last .1 of an inch out of a new gun. If it wasn't sub moa it went to the guns shop. Today I get a new gun and still do load development. I still love a sub moa gun but it had better show me that accuracy fast. A couple days on the bench and if I can get 1 1/4 groups im going to call it a day. Id love to have the bullets and primers and powders I wasted trying to get an 1 1/4 gun to shoot 3/4s of an inch. Truth be told that 1/4 inch works out to a whopping one inch at 400 yards over a gun that shoots an inch. I know guys that spend 100s of hours on a bench shooting tiny groups and given an off hand shot at a 100 yards on a deer might as well throw a rock.


Ill give you one more example of how important I consider accuracy. I shot ppc league for about 15 years. Bullseye league for about 10. I was in the top 3 in both leagues. I came to a realization one day. The sports just didn't make sense. take a combat orientated handgun out and practice consentrating on getting the sight picture just perfect and the trigger break just right and you win. But are you actually learning bad habbits. What happens when you really have to use that gun. Your years of training have become memory control and your going to draw and consentrate on that sight picture and squeeze off that shot while the bad guy has already pumped 3 into you in various parts of your body. Those sports don't related to the real world. A guy is better off putting some steel gongs or silhouette targets up at various ranges and practicing drawing and shooting. It was an eye opener to me when I quit the comp shooting and started doing it myself. I was pathetic at it. But I guess the most important thing is having fun. If you have fun chasing groups then who am I to tell you im right and your wrong. If someone 30 years ago would have told you what I just did I would have told them there smoking crack.

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post #47 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 07:47 PM Thread Starter
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A lot of information there llyod! a great deal of it I can easily agree is more than simply valid.

The buffallo account reminded me of what hunters thought concerning me hunting whitetail with a 50 cal flintlock pistol. They alledged it was shakey.... but like you, I waited for a 50 yard broadside shot, (loose comparison), and did the difficult thing enough to bring the deer home for dinner.

Ironically I also shot competition while my health allowed it, albeit a different discipine. I shot silhouette, and similar to your experience saw only limited things useful that could transfer to my outdoor and/or SD training. I seldom shoot offhand if I can help it.

I moved over to falling plates competition in the "carry gun" catagory offered at my gun club. In a pretty short time I developed skills I had believed I already pocessed, and my draw,fire, reaquire sights, and SUCCESSFULLY knock down all the plates faster than a Hollywood gunslinger came to pass. (I thought less than four seconds wasnt too shabby for a sick old man anyway)

My other rangetime is just hunting practice. I kind of subcribe to practice makes perfect, and regularly using my hunting guns seems to help me. Like I said, I avoid offhand if I can help it.

Always enjoy your input on pretty much everything lloyd, looking forward to next time.
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post #48 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 06:38 AM
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ya plate shooting is a much better SPORT if you want to learn self defense techniques. Ive even seen a couple concealed weapon plate shoots up here. No barrels longer then 3 inch and you have to use a concealed carry holster and a gun with no more then a 10 shot mag. All mags ands speed loaders have to be concealed also. All drawing has to be done from a concealed location and its set up to move kind of like what would happen in Walmart if there was a shooter. There was even a t shirt class where you had to wear a t shirt and use a iwb holster. targets were a mix of plates and silhouette targets. Even had a good guy bad guy scenario and if you shot the good guy your score didn't count and you had to start over (pay again) I ran though it a couple times and it was fun, much more so then boring ppc shoots. But then nobody was shooting back.

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post #49 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 07:35 AM Thread Starter
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Understood. My club shoots (except the NRA sanctioned) are much less formal than what you are used to without a dought.

For my purposes of practice and developing muscle memory to best possible prepare for the GOD forbid life threatening scenario, this will have to do. I also do regular (unloaded) drills in the basement as well. Admittedly this has become a way to help deal with boredom since my health is limiting my outdoor pursuits lately, but it does seem to make a difference, hopefully a life saving one if anyone tries that home invasion thing here again..... no, they ran, no shots fired.

Last point, I find has humor, is my wife had previously asked why I had to remain armed while in the house. Have not even once had that asked again since they tried coming through the front door that night while we watched TV!

Have a nice day lloyd, I always view it as a pleasure.
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post #50 of 51 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 06:00 AM
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easy to get complacent around here. Home break ins are about unheard of. I don't even recall ever hearing of a single instance when anyone with a ccw actually used it within 200 miles of here. Much more likely to hear of someone shooting themselves then shooting someone else. I don't carry at home but theres guns everywhere including one right in the magazine rack by my recliner.

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