What happened to the 40 - Page 4 - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #31 of 69 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 04:52 AM
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I finally accepted the .40 Smith & Wesson, partly because it wasnít going away; but mostly because it just makes sense. I have used a lot of handgun cartridges over the years and Iím impressed with how well its ballistics overlaps many of them. For example:

Proponents of the 9mm cite reduced ammo costs, and suggest that the +P+ 9mm can do anything the .40 S&W can. The first argument is flattened by the fact that many .40 S&W autos can easily be converted to 9mm- but the reverse is not the case. I personally donít think that a 147 grain 9mm does the same damage as a 155 grain .40, at significantly higher velocities; but Iíll admit to being predisposed in favor of bigger, heavier bullets.

The 125 grain .357 hollowpoint is widely thought to be the standard by which defensive pistol cartridges are judged; from packable revolvers, it achieves around 1350 fps. The .40 can match this with a larger diameter 135 grain bullet. Typical 158 grain loadings of the .357 generally run about 1250 fps; the .40 will do it with 155ís. On the other end of the spectrum, Alaska Backpackerís 200 grain hardcast .357 load produced 970 fps from my 2 1/4″ Ruger SP101. Double-Tap offers a 200 grain .40 S&W load, with a similar bullet, that does 1050 fps from a Glock 23. Unless you load the .357 heavy, from a long barreled revolver- itís a fair statement to say the .40 S&W can run right along side of it.

In my own unscientific tests, the .40/180/JHP compares quite favorably to the .45/230/JHP. I was surprised to find that even Remingtonís UMC 180 grain flat-point FMJ load (pictured above) disrupts water jugs significantly better than .45 hardball- and it often Ďrivetedí to about 45 caliber in the process. I just wish DOD would pull its head out of its ass and catch on to this fact. Flat-point FMJ in the .40 S&W would make a perfect military pistol cartridge, generating considerable Ďthumpí while retaining significant

Lots of truth in this statement. bottom line is the military went to the 9 and now the police are because most people today are raised with little to no exposure to guns. What we get now in the enlistment centers and police accademys are experts in video games. Soft mamas boys. Back in WW2 and korea the recuits came from urban areas where they killed game to eat and had to actualy split firewood instead of turning up the thermostat and the only games they played were football, baseball and basketball. They add to that that we allowed women in combat and as troppers. Nothing wrong with that but on average there just not as strong and even less exposed to guns. So the 9 was a natural. All of this is nothing they couldn't fix with an additional week of boot camp or academy actually learning to shoot there weapons. I had to chuckle the other day. I picked up a glock 22 at a good price. Took it home and wanted to test fire it to make sure it ran right. Loaded it up with some factory 40s I had on the shelf and shot a clip into the snow bank. Now even shooting it I had to chuckle. If an adult state tropper or soldier cant handle a full sized glock 40 then I'm awful nervous putting my safety in there hands. Funny thing is those same people will go and buy a glock 43 or shield in 9 that recoils even more then a full sized 40. Tell you what and I might catch some flak for this but if you cant handle shooting a glock 22 or a fullsized 40 of any manufacture then maybe you should consider that your times spent on handgun fourms on the internet should be used to do a bit of arm exercises.

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post #32 of 69 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 05:27 AM
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Don't get me wrong. I love shooting 9s. I probably shoot 3 times as many 9s as 40s. Why? because there fun to shoot and are a 1/3 cheaper to shoot. Less lead, less powder and brass is cheaper. Reality today with the price of 22 shells if a guy has brass (which I have tons of) its almost cheaper to shoot 9s then 22s. 3 grains of powder and a primer is what it costs me. That said ive never had to kill a man so I'm no expert on what it takes to do that but ive killed enough game with enough different guns to know that a smaller round is NEVER better or even as good as a larger one. To me that's like saying a 223 is as good of a deer gun as a 243 or a 243 is as good as an 06 or a 357 will kill anything just as well as a 44. Aint happening!!


If I was in a serious situation id take a 40 over a 9 any day and would probably wish I had a 45 on me that day. Theres two cops on here I know. Both of them like the 40 over the 9. Both of them have seen the differences personally. The fact the military uses 9s because there the nato round and women are in combat now which by the way is why the berretta is going down the line. There just to big for a small women to get a grip on. Or that police are going back to it because there getting wimpy guys and again are getting more and more women sure isn't an argument for the superiority of the 9. they can talk till there blue in the face about modern 9 ammo being much better but every bullet technology improvement in the 9s has also been used in the 40s and plus p 9mm ammo has been around for YEARS. It not some new thing that just came out. Thing is our poor soldiers are not only stuck with a small caliber but saddled with having to use ball ammo too! No show me something that proves that 9mm ball is superior to 45acp ball that it replaced!!


Sure a clip holds 3 or 4 more shots but how many police officers do you know that have shot that many rounds in a gun fight and I believe most police carry extra mags if they do. probably 80 percent of the handguns issued to our troops (other then special forces) are issued to officers and security people that probably wont even fire the gun in 20 years. I don't know of to many soldiers that go into battle and leave there rifle behind and rely on a 9mm to get them back home safe. As to it being nato round so what. We are the biggest player by far in nato. We are in about every fight that's started anywhere in the world. We should be worried about our troops not whether are guns and clothes color match the rest of nato. Trump should step in and tell nato heres the way it is. We are switching to 40s or back to 45s. If you want to use our ammo on the battle field id suggest you do the same. I don't have any statistics to prove it but id bet that in the past 30 years theres been a few soldiers killed fighting because there pathetic 9mm ball ammo didn't stop an enemy soldier fast enough. Even if it were just ONE it sure justifys going bigger to me.

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post #33 of 69 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 06:04 AM
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A lot of the military's reasoning is likely logistics based.
For the same weight/area, you can carry/store more 9 than 40.

Similarly you'll see that choice of survival weapons is not a 30-06, but a 22 pistol or 22 Mag rifle.

I think the .40 is probably a great choice for use as a trail pistol where it can be open carried.
But I don't think it's always the best choice for everything everywhere.

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post #34 of 69 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 06:30 AM
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yup that's a legit argument for a gun used in battle like the m-16 vs the m-14 but very few handguns are used by main line troops. most are issued to rear echelon troops, officers and security guards. Your not going into battle and shooting 200 pistol rounds off. The logical choice is to leave the handgun behind and just carry that weight in additional rifle ammo. Personaly if someone is trying to kill me id rather have two 15 round clips of 40 then two 18 round clips of 9 anyway especially if I had to use ball ammo and would take two 10 round clips of 45acp over either. Weight difference between a 10 round 45 mag and an 18 round 9mm mag is nothing, and Id take two or three more 30 round mags for my rifle over any handgun. . I don't think the 40 is the best choice for EVERYTHING either. Heck summer carry usualy sees me with a 380 in my pocket or a iwb holster with my glock 43. But I'm not going to war or going to work in an environment that includes being shot at.
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Originally Posted by Sheridan5mm View Post
A lot of the military's reasoning is likely logistics based.
For the same weight/area, you can carry/store more 9 than 40.

Similarly you'll see that choice of survival weapons is not a 30-06, but a 22 pistol or 22 Mag rifle.

I think the .40 is probably a great choice for use as a trail pistol where it can be open carried.
But I don't think it's always the best choice for everything everywhere.

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post #35 of 69 (permalink) Old 02-14-2018, 06:35 AM
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Many 40's are a barrel swap away from being a 9mm (357SIG). Great powerhouse cartridge and accurate.
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post #36 of 69 (permalink) Old 06-08-2018, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by weakhand luke View Post
Many 40's are a barrel swap away from being a 9mm (357SIG). Great powerhouse cartridge and accurate.
And Glocks are a barrel swap away from being a 9mm Luger.
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post #37 of 69 (permalink) Old 06-08-2018, 12:28 PM
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Well, like it or not, the recoil of a medium sized .40 carry piece is very "snappy" compared to most 9's and even 45s. And, though that snap is not painful, it takes longer to get the muzzle back down and on target for a second shot.
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post #38 of 69 (permalink) Old 06-08-2018, 04:20 PM
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Well, like it or not, the recoil of a medium sized .40 carry piece is very "snappy" compared to most 9's and even 45s. And, though that snap is not painful, it takes longer to get the muzzle back down and on target for a second shot.
and of course, that goes back to the other posts- training, practice, familiarity with one's firearm,
the ability to put the first one in the right spot, not spraying and praying, etc.

also as much as anything, hiring law enforcement officers and recruiting military personnel
based on qualifications and an affinity for the job instead of gender and racial quotas and
politically correct feel-good agendas, and not lowering hiring/recruiting standards so the less
qualified can make the grade.

The United States doesn't have a gun control problem.
We have a people control problem.

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post #39 of 69 (permalink) Old 06-17-2018, 04:44 PM
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I'm not sure if your perception is actually the truth or not but, I, for one, hate the .40. I have carried one daily for near 30 years and just really don't like it. I am not even able to say what I don't like about the 40 but, I only own one myself and never use it. I will probably get rid of it when I retire and buy something else. My preferred semi-auto handgun is the 45 but, I like 9mm a lot as well. I am almost afraid to say what I carry daily because too many people think it isn't enough gun (380) but, I would prefer to have any CCW when I need it, rather than having a 9mm or .45 sitting at home because it is too hard to conceal.
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post #40 of 69 (permalink) Old 06-17-2018, 07:32 PM
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It isn't about flinching or the inability to handle the .40, the FBI study showed that with modern SD ammunition the 9mm is as effective against humans as the .40 or .45, and does it with less recoil so you can put more shots on target faster and more effectively and with a larger magazine capacity to boot. Whether you believe their research or not, that's the rationale.

FBI studies seem to influence as the situation dictates.

remember when a BP agent was put on trial for shooting an "Immigrant" for throwing a stone at him?


the FBI study (involving that incident) determined that a 1 (one) pound stone, thrown, by hand, hit with the same energy as a 9mm...


IIRC...the agent was convicted...


to be effective with ANY caliber SD firearm, one should train with their choice..."A slow hit is better than a fast miss"..."Speed is fine...accuracy is final"...

lead, follow, or get out of the way!
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