9mm - Page 4 - Graybeard Outdoors
 
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post #31 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-12-2016, 09:13 PM
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Two things won me over to the 9mm just a few years ago (I no longer have any semi-autos in anything bigger than 9):
1. Personal consistent accuracy. I've shot a lot of 45 in marksmanship competition; the skills are entirely transferrable, and I found I am just that much more accurate over time with the 9mm as I don't fatigue as quickly. The key for me was finding a 9mm platform I felt I could be as accurate with as a 1911 - found it, I'm good.
2. We don't have to use 115gr Luger FMJ anymore. I pretty much shoot 124gr NATO which is comparable to a US Commercial +P load, and I use a firearm that was built to NATO Spec so the springs are set up for the load.


... magazine capacity was never a selling feature for me. If your training relies upon volume of fire, you're preparing for combat. However, being able to accurately place 17 shots before needing to reload, from a concealable firearm, is certainly handy as sometimes you don't want to carry a spare magazine.
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post #32 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-12-2016, 10:30 PM
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.25ACP # of people shot - 68
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2
% of people who were not incapacitated - 35%
One-shot-stop % - 30%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49%

.22 (short, long and long rifle) # of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%
.32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP) # of people shot - 25
# of hits - 38
% of hits that were fatal - 21%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.52
% of people who were not incapacitated - 40%
One-shot-stop % - 40%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 78%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 72%
.380 ACP # of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%
.38 Special # of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%
9mm Luger # of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%
.357 (both magnum and Sig) # of people shot - 105
# of hits - 179
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61%
.40 S&W # of people shot - 188
# of hits - 443
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.36
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 45%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 52%
.45 ACP # of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%
.44 Magnum # of people shot - 24
# of hits - 41
% of hits that were fatal - 26%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.71
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 59%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 88%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 53%
Rifle (all Centerfire) # of people shot - 126
# of hits - 176
% of hits that were fatal - 68%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.4
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 80%
Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge) # of people shot - 146
# of hits - 178
% of hits that were fatal - 65%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.22
% of people who were not incapacitated - 12%
One-shot-stop % - 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 84%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 86%

Source: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
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post #33 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-12-2016, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Lilly View Post
fxr, you misunderstood about the doubling of energy. I didn't explain it very well. To make it clear:

a 158 grn. 38 is about half the energy of a 147 grn. 9mm
a 125 grn. +P .38 is half the energy of a 124 grn. 9mm.
a 147 grn. 9mm +P+ is about twice the energy as a comparable weight .38 in +P+.
Where in the world are you getting this?
Here are some .38 Special specs:
Blazer Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special LRN 158 200 755
38 Special +P FMJ 158 253 850
38 Special +P JHP 125 248 945
** Blazer Brass **
38 Special FMJ FN 125 208 865
** Clean Fire **
38 Special +P TMJ 158 253 850
Buffalo Bore Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
** Loads below specified 4" BBL **
38 Special +P LSWCHP 158 474 1162
38 Special +P LV JHP 125 439 1258
38 Special +P HC Keith 158 476 1167
** Short Barrel Loads below specified 2" Snub **
38 Special SWC-HC 158 253 850
38 Special HCWC 150 241 850
38 Special JHP 125 225 900
Cor-Bon Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special +P JHP 110 269 1050
38 Special +P JHP 125 251 950
38 Special +P DPX 110 269 1050
38 Special FMJ 147 264 900
** Pow'r Ball **
38 Special +P PBall 100 294 1150
** Glaser Safety Slug **
38 Special SS 80 256 1200
38 Special +P SS 80 278 1250
Double Tap Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special +P BD JHP 125 383 1175
38 Special +P SJHP 125 383 1175
38 Special +P TACXP 110 382 1250
38 Special +P SWC 158 351 1000
Extreme Shock Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special AFR 85 475 (4.25"bbl) 1586
38 Special EPR 115 387 1185
38 Special FF 124 387 1185
Federal Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special Hydshk 110 235 980
38 Special +P Hydshk 129 258 950
38 Special Nyclad 125 191 830
38 Special FMJ 130 189 810
38 Special LWCM 148 156 690
38 Special LRN 158 208 770
Fiocchi Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special XTP JHP 110 TBD TBD
38 Special +P FMJFN 110 284 1080
38 Special SJSP 125 261 970
38 Special SJSP ZP 125 261 970
38 Special XTP JHP 125 200 850
38 Special SJHP 125 261 970
38 Special FMJ 130 260 950
38 Special VSJHP 148 183 750
38 Special LWC 148 175 730
38 Special FMJ 158 186 730
38 Special LRN 158 271 880
Grizzly Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special +P JHP 158 333 975
38 Special +P JSP 158 333 975
Hornady Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special FTX 110 249 1010
38 Special +P FTX 110 290 1090
38 Special JHP 125 225 900
38 Special JHP 158 199 800
International Cartridge Corporation Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
Green Elite Series
38 Special Frangible Duty HP 110 242 1000
Lehigh Defense Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special Maximum Expansion HP 100 245 1050
38 Special Controlled Fracturing HP 105 257 1050
PMC Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special +P SFHP 125 251 950
38 Special EMJ NT 132 207 840
38 Special EMJ NT 158 225 800
38 Special FMJ 132 207 840
Masafe Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special Swat 37 362 4"bbl 2100 4"bbl
38 Special Defender 52 303 3"bbl 1620 3"bbl
38 Special +P Maxx 65 402 2"bbl /469 3"bbl 1670 2"bbl /1804 3"bbl
Magtech Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special LRN 158 200 755
38 Special LWC 148 166 710
38 Special SJSPF 158 200 744
38 Special +P SJSP F 125 245 938
38 Special SJHP 158 230 807
38 Special +P SJHP 125 245 938
38 Special LRN 125 130 686
38 Special +P SJHP 158 278 890
38 Special LSWC 158 200 755
38 Special +P JHP 125 287 1017
38 Special LFN 158 225 800
38 Special +P SJSP F 158 278 890
38 Special FMJ F 158 200 755
38 Special FEB F 158 200 755
38 Special FMJ F 125 245 938
38 Special FMJ 130 185 800
38 Special LFN 125 234 919
38 Special +P SCHP 95 247 1083
RBCD Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special TFSP 60 385 1705
Remington Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special +P SJHP 110 242 995
38 Special SJHP 110 220 950
38 Special +P SJHP 125 248 945
38 Special FNEB 125 178 800
38 Special +P FNEB 125 264 975
38 Special +P JHP 125 248 945
38 Special MC 130 185 800
38 Special LWC 148 166 710
38 Special +P LHP 158 278 890
38 Special +P SWC 158 278 890
38 Special LRN 158 200 755
38 Special SWC 158 200 755
38 Special LRN 158 200 755
** Golden Saber **
38 Special +P BJHP 125 264 975
Ruag Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
Geco Product Line
38 Special LRN 158 285 902
38 Special JHP 158 329 968
38 Special FMJ FN 158 329 968
RWS Copper Matrix Product Line
38 Special Fangible Practice round 100 283 1130
Sellier & Bellot Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
Coming Soon
Speer Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special +P GDHP 125 248 945
38 Special +P TMJ FN 158 284 900
** Short Barrel Load **
38 Special +P GDHPSB 135 222 860
Underwood Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special FMJ 125 225 900
38 Special +P FMJ 125 278 1000
38 Special +P JHP 125 278 1000
38 Special +P Gold Dot HP 125 400 1200
38 Special +P Golden Saber HP 125 336 1100
Winchester Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
38 Special STHP 110 218 945
38 Special JSP 125 167 775
38 Special FMJ 130 185 800
38 Special Lead 150 238 845
38 Special CLL 158 225 800
38 Special LRN 158 200 755
38 Special LSWC 158 200 755
38 Special +P JHP 125 248 945
38 Special +P STHP 125 248 945
38 Special +P T-Series 130 247 925
38 Special +P LSWCHP 158 278 890

And 9mm:
Aguila Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm FMJ 124 351 1126
9mm JHP 117 401 1250
9mm FMJ 115 399 1250
Blazer Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm JHP 115 335 1145
9mm JHP 124 327 1090
9mm JHP 147 295 950
** Blazer Brass **
9mm JHP 115 323 1145
9mm JHP 124 327 1090
** Clean Fire **
9mm TMJ 124 327 1090
9mm TMJ 147 295 950
Brown/Silver Bear Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm FMJ 115 356 1180
Buffalo Bore Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm +P JHP 115 431 1300
9mm +P JHP 124 413 1225
9mm +P FMJ-FN 124 465 1300
9mm +P+ JHP 115 500 1400
9mm +P+ JHP 124 461 1300
9mm +P+ JHP 147 451 1175
9mm +P+ TAC XP 115 500 1400
9mm +P+ TAC XP 95 474 1500
Cor-Bon Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm DPX 95 357 1300
9mm +P DPX 115 399 1250
9mm +P JHP 90 450 1500
9mm +P JHP 115 466 1350
9mm +P JHP 125 434 1250
** Glaser Safety Slug **
9mm +P SS 80 399 1500
** Pow'r Ball **
9mm +P PB 100 483 1475
Double Tap Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm +P TAC-XP 80 433 1560
9mm +P TAC-XP 115 445 1275
9mm +P Bonded Defense™ JHP 124 473 1310
9mm +P JHP 124 473 1310
9mm +P FMJ FP 147 421 1135
9mm +P JHP 115 511 1415
9mm +P JHP 147 410 1125
Extreme Shock Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm AFR 85 442 1531
9mm EPR 115 385 1182
9mm FF 124 385 1182
Federal Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm FMJ 124 364 1150
9mm FMJ 115 356 1180
9mm FMJFP 147 326 1000
9mm TMJ 124 345 1120
9mm TMJ 147 326 1000
9mm JHP 115 356 1180
9mm Hyd-Shok 124 345 1120
9mm Hyd-Shok 147 326 1000
9mm Hyd-Shok 105 353 1230
9mm EFMJ 105 337 1060
** Tactical HST **
9mm HST 124 364 1150
9mm +P HST 124 396 1200
9mm HST 147 326 1000
9mm +P HST 147 360 1050
Fiocchi Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm XTP JHP 115 395 1245
9mm XTP JHP 147 313 980
9mm XTP JHP 124 TBD TBD
9mm Frangible 100 375 1300
9mm FMJ 115 405 1260
9mm FMJ 124 383 1180
9mm JHP 124 383 1180
9mm FMJTC 124 396 1200
9mm FMJ 147 326 1000
9mm FMJ 158 309 940
9mm JHP 115 398 1250
9mm JHP 147 329 1005
9mm TCEB 123 383 1180
Grizzly Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm +P JHP 90 528 1625
9mm +P JHP 115 465 1350
9mm +P JHP 124 396 1200
9mm +P JHP 147 360 1050
9mm +P Xtreme HP 110 445 1350
Hornady Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm CD FTX 115 332 1140
9mm XTP 115 341 1155
9mm XTP 124 339 1110
9mm HP XTP 124 339 1110
9mm XTP 147 310 975
9mm HP XTP 147 310 975
9mm +P FlexLock 135 369 1110
9mm FlexLock 135 306 1010
9mm CD Lite 100 281 1125
International Cartridge Corporation Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
Green Elite Series
9mm Frangible Training FP 100 351 1250
9mm Frangible Duty HP 100 351 1250
Lehigh Defense Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm +P Maximum Expansion HP 70 423 1650
9mm Maximum Expansion HP 105 308 1150
9mm Controlled Fracturing HP 105 282 1100
9mm +P Controlled Fracturing HP 105 394 1300
9mm Controlled Fracturing HP 68 363 1550
Magsafe Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm +P Max 64 540 1950
9mm MGL 50 444 2000
9mm defender 52 303 1620
Magtech Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm FMJ 115 330 1135
9mm FEB 115 330 1135
9mm FMJ 124 339 1109
9mm FEB 124 338 1109
9mm JHP 115 340 1155
9mm JSP Flat 95 380 1345
9mm LRN 124 339 1109
9mm FMJ Flat Sub 147 320 990
9mm +P+ JHP 115 451 1328
9mm JHP Sub 147 320 990
9mm JSP 124 339 1109
9mm SCHP 92.6 364 1330
9mm +P JHP 115 397 1246
9mm JHP 124 331 1096
PMC Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm EMJ NT 115 338 1150
9mm EMJ NT 124 339 1110
9mm FMJ 124 339 1110
9mm FMJ 115 344 1150
9mm JHP 115 344 1160
9mm SFHP 124 327 1090
RBCD Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm TFSP 60 539 2010
Remington Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm JHP 115 341 1155
9mm MC 115 329 1135
9mm +P JHP 115 399 1250
9mm FNEB 115 329 1135
9mm JHP 115 341 1155
9mm MC 115 329 1135
9mm MC 124 339 1110
9mm FNEB 124 339 1100
9mm MC 124 339 1100
9mm JHP 147 320 990
9mm MC 147 320 990
** Golden Saber **
9mm BJHP 147 320 990
9mm BJHP 124 349 1125
9mm +P BJHP 124 384 1180
Ruag Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
Geco Product Line
9mm JHP 115 378 1214
9mm FMJ 124 382 1181
RWS Copper Matrix Product Line
9mm Fangible Practice round 85 383 1425
MFS Product Line
9mm FMJ RN 115 355 1180
Sellier & Bellot Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
Coming Soon
Speer Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm Gold Dot HP 115 374 1210
9mm +P Gold Dot HP 124 410 1220
9mm Gold Dot HP 124 364 1150
9mm Gold Dot HP 147 317 985
9mm TMJ RN 115 368 1200
9mm TMJ RN 124 327 1090
9mm TMJ RN 147 317 985
**Specialty round for snub nose revolvers (low speed expansion)**
9mm +P Gold Dot HP SB 124 364 1150
Underwood Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm +P Gold Dot HP 115 432 1300
9mm +P+ Gold Dot HP 115 501 1400
9mm +P+ Hornady XTP 124 465 1300
9mm +P FMJ 124 413 1225
9mm +P Gold Dot HP 124 413 1225
9mm +P+ Gold Dot HP 124 465 1300
9mm +P+ Gold Dot HP 147 451 1175
9mm +P Gold Dot HP 147 414 1125
USA Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm FMJ 115 340 1150
9mm JHP 115 340 1150
9mm Bonded JHP 117 - -
9mm FMJ 124 345 1120
9mm JHP 124 345 1120
9mm JHP 147 317 984
Winchester Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm FMJ 115 362 1190
9mm T-Series 147 320 147
9mm SCNT 105 336 1200
9mm JHP 115 383 1225
9mm JHP 147 320 990
9mm FMJ 124 358 1140
9mm PDX1 124 396 1180
9mm FMJFN 147 320 990
9mm FMJ 115 362 1190
9mm BEB 115 362 1190
9mm STHP 115 383 1225
9mm STHP 147 333 1010
------ Ranger Law Enforcement ------
9mm Bonded HP 124 383 1180
9mm Bonded HP 147 323 995
9mm Frangible 90 392 1377
9mm Frangible 100 375 1300
9mm Nato FMJ 124 387 1185
9mm Nato FMJ-E 147 317 985
9mm +P JHP 115 455 1335
9mm JHP 115 383 1225
9mm +P T-Series 127 441 1250
9mm T-Series 147 320 990

Source: http://www.ballistics101.com/

Ok, so maybe the best 9mm ammo if fired from a full size duty pistol has double the kinetic energy of the worst standard velocity .38 Special target ammo if fired from a 2" snubby.
Turning the tables a bit, I have .38 Special loads that I have chronographed from my Taurus M85 small frame, 2" .38 snubby that equal the kinetic energy of the best non-+P 9mm loads. And I have other .38 Special loads that, fired from a 4" Model 10, substantially beat any 9mm load fired from a full size service pistol.

Now, I understand that you prefer the .38 Special over the 9mm. I also prefer .38 Special, and can prove that it is better than 9mm.

I do like the 9mm, though. It is the cheapest round to reload, bar none. And it has enough power to do most of what I need a pistol for around the farm. For that matter, so does a .22 Magnum revolver.
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post #34 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-12-2016, 11:25 PM
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Seems we should be carrying a rifle or shotgun, but that's kind of a given. We don't because they would be unwieldy in everyday life.

Lily, my point is not disputing that with a 9mm more than one shot will be needed. It is that with a 40 or 45, only one shot will be needed.
The people that swear by the "it begins with a 4", are the ones who think it's a magical round. I don't for one moment believe that the 9mm is the magical, be-all handgun cartridge, but neither are any of the others.
The vast majority of the time, more than one shot will be needed, no matter what caliber was chosen. This is why I said in my first post to carry whatever you were most comfortable with. You're gonna need more than one anyway.
If the above post is accurate, while the percentages vary, you are seriously risking your life betting on most calibers to drop an adversary with one shot.
So then, it gets down to how much you feel you need. The larger the caliber, the fewer you will have available, all other things, such as gun size, being considered. Also, the larger the caliber, the more recoil, and therefore slower second shot time. Yes, practice will overcome the extra recoil. The only way to get more rounds is with a larger sized gun. Most will not put in the required practice to be able to shoot say, a 45 with the same rapidity and accuracy of the 9mm. Also, given that at least 2rds would be needed the vast majority of the time, the more limited capacity of the larger calibers necessitates a small number of attackers.
This does not even take into account that, generally, the accuracy of people engaged in a gunfight drops between 30-40%. This means that if you shoot 90% at the range, when the adrenaline hits you're going to drop down to 50-60%. This is with trained shooters, not just everyday Joe blow.
Suddenly, only 7-8rds isn't so much.

I want all the advantage I can get. The bigger caliber only increases that by a small amount, but at the trade of how many you have.

No, I don't plan to miss a lot. I hope, if it ever comes to it, I won't miss any. But history shows that some missing is quite likely. If I had a way to dictate the fight, I'd dictate it to somewhere else.

But again, carry what you are most proficient with.

I would say you cannot miss fast enough to win, but I've seen that done. Of course, no one was shooting back.

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post #35 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 12:05 AM
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I shoot a lot of both 38spl and 9mm, and like them both, and think they're a good ballistic comparison. For an Apples to Apples comparison, I would look at the 124gr JHP, loaded either to 9mm NATO or 38+P depending on the case. Powder use is within a grain of each other, primers are a wash. You can load either up to much heavier bullets of course, but the 124 JHP is a commonly available bullet for SD/HD use, so we can assume comparable terminal effect as well. We don't know the barrel length used, but if we assume its comparable (say 4") to a duty weapon, then the only difference really is the case volume - smaller case, higher pressure. Per SAAMI, 38spl+P goes to 18,500 psi while the 9mm NATO is 36,000 - double the pressure means more energy, more velocity when using the same charge, primer and bullet. Which is validated by the data WECSOG posted. Apples to Apples, 9mm wins the round.


I've heard folks poo poo the 9mm because DOD wants to move away from it. What they're missing in that story is that the Geneva Convention restricts the DOD to FMJ only; if JHP were authorized, the DOD would stick with the 9mm most likely. Certainly the FBI's recent return to the 9mm is stated as largely due to modern bullet design which produces equally effect penetration and wound tracks to the 40 and 45.
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post #36 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 07:00 AM
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Fwiw, in 9mm, I prefer 124 or 147gr. I do have some 115gr, but they are +p+. And, since my edc is a full sized pistol, it will get some use from the hotter loading.

Most of the world uses the 9mm in the nato loading, which here in the US is considered a +p load. I don't know why we decided to neuter it. So, for everywhere else, 9mm represents a 124gr bullet, at close to our 115gr velocities.

Actually, it was the Hague convention of 1899 that restricted ammunition types for military use, and we didn't sign it.
We can do what we want.

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post #37 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 08:00 AM
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Nothing new here from either side. Can't believe y'all took the troll bait.

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post #38 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaShooter View Post
Nothing new here from either side. Can't believe y'all took the troll bait.
Yeaaaa, but it's the first time I ever took it!!

DM

Lincolns legacy is, he freed the slaves

Obama's legacy will be, he freed the terrorist!
Drilling Man is offline  
post #39 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaShooter View Post
Nothing new here from either side. Can't believe y'all took the troll bait.
Have to entertain myself somehow.

Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
Gunfixr is offline  
post #40 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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a 380 in the leg could mess him up pretty bad, but a 45 more so.
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