9mm - Page 8 - Graybeard Outdoors
 
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post #71 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 11:00 AM
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The next time anyone says that anything less than a 45 is worthless ask them if they ever collected a 32 acp to the teeth, and we're not talking about the Hollywood bad guy 'Jaws', either.

I really don't understand why so many question the effectiveness of even just plain mil-spec loadings in either the 380, 38, 9mm or 45 when all have worked efficiently and quite effectively as military loadings in the past.

It must be that we are talking about arm chair theorists here. I don't recall NOT using multiple rounds in even the 45 to stop a bunch of Charlies when they did not drop at the first impact in the nanosecond the impact took place. I distinctly remember using even two or 3 rounds when they didn't go down fast enough. ****, they were dead on their feet and arching over backwards or spinning from the first hit but they didn't drop fast enough so I hit'm again. Sorry, human nature. The 9 works the same way - if they don't drop fast enough hit'm again. what the **** are you arguing about, whether or not you are going to stand there and wait to see if the person you've just shot is going to react and try and get back at you or just die. I sure hope not! I would think you are already moving your butt to a safer position in case he/she had friends or other comrades around.

How does this sound - don't try to look for battlefield documentation from guys or gals who are so exhausted they can't even remember the number of magazines they loaded up for the operation much less the number of times they had to hit someone they thought they had hit solidly with the first shot. Go there yourself and make certain you place your shots right and then you can either criticize or agree.

But I'll tell you this - cop experience trying to stop meth-ed up cracked-up thugs with or without guns is just about as dang bad as trying to stop Charlie who's hyped up on whatever they had back then as well as the stupid commie idea that they had more commies than we had bullets, and until you get there yourself you should learn a bit more.

I'm gonna say this only once more because I'm tired of telling every blonde who comes along - Never rely on a bullet design to do as it is advertised unless it is a solid square nosed slug like a semi wadcutter, wadcutter or one of the LBT designs - those hard, flat nosed slugs always do what they are supposed to do - penetrate literally straight on through crushing muscle, bone and tissue as it goes through, rather than slipping on through like the rounder profile of a semi-auto slug --- but since we can't use those in warfare we are stuck with what we can use and that works if you place them right. It worked in WWII, Korea and Vietnam but if you do not place them properly no bullet will work for you.

Geez, just get what you are comfortable carrying and shooting, and learn how to use the dang thing.
[/thread] This says it all.
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post #72 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 11:59 AM
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Brother Law,

Thanks for that linky link. I checked it out for the Hornady Critical Duty and Critical Defense in 9mm.
He tested the short barrel in one of my carry guns. The comparison. Of the two side by side is interesting/informative for these two rounds considering barrel length (of the pistols). Mucho Gracias.

lc

Fundamentalism: The sneaking suspicion that somewhere, someone, might be having fun.

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post #73 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 12:57 PM
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Muchas Gracias.
da nada!

Based on his evaluation I selected the Hornady Critical Defense for my 9's.

Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute. Currently a Gentleman of Leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

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post #74 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 12:59 PM
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Default The crux of it all !

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Geez, just get what you are comfortable carrying and shooting, and learn how to use the dang thing.
Read this whole thread and seen some good arguments . In the whole big picture Mikey covered it for me.

Not that Dee and some others didn't make good points.

I carry a glock 36 because its "carryable"

I shoot a G21 way better so I would say its my go to handgun.

All that being said when I hear the dogs barking here at night I slip out a dark door with my 12 gauge pump.

Meanest thing I ever shot was a mad Pit bull. Quickest one shot kill was a "deadly" east Texas pig with the 44 mag.

or else...................

God Bless America and Donald Trump !
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post #75 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by atllaw View Post
da nada!

Based on his evaluation I selected the Hornady Critical Defense for my 9's.
I had staggered Duty and Defense in the magazines for CZ 75 Compact and Sig P938. After seeing the performance of each I loaded the 938 with the Defense and the 75 with the Duty. Now to get out my reloads and practice a bit
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Fundamentalism: The sneaking suspicion that somewhere, someone, might be having fun.
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post #76 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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My .45 carry load is the +P Critical Duty. Same brand/style goes in my LC9. Like most of you, I have more than one gun suitable for carry and can name a favorite. The nine ain't it. Premium ammo in most all handgun calibers expand enough to suit the varying opinions of the buying public. Your .6 something expansion from a nine is sufficient for those who have both real and hopeful reasons to carry it. Me, I prefer the .75 end result.

Another point not yet addressed in hardball discussion--possibly a less important issue but one that still exists. A 230 grain ball will reach the vitals even the only shot you have is sideways into a shoulder. A 147 ball, will do that sometimes too, but not near as often.

I'm seeing 8 pages of discussion on this thread. Are you not glad it was opened? Everyone got a chance to express their opinion.

I forget now who it was that called me a badass. I can assure you I am not. I've said it before, I will run away given an opportunity to avoid shooting. Some of you have said in another thread that you would not, that you would stand your ground, while in the same breath telling others they don't know what they would do.

Also I never said the nine is useless. I have one and sometimes carry it. I also sometimes carry a .22M. That little gun is loaded with a particular Winchester round that has been shown to expand reliably even from the shorty barrel, a thing even the Critical Duty/Defense loads won't do in that caliber. So, wou can see the extremes of carry guns. A nine is a compromise (IMO) between a tiny gun and a .45. Regardless of what other people or agencies carry, we all make our own decisions. No, that's not entirely correct. It seems some few of you make your selections specifically on what someone else carries. I have explained why agencies pick puny nines but you still argue you want one because they do.

Let's be friends now.
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post #77 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 06:20 PM
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It might be interesting to look at it from a different point of view. If you had to choose, which caliber would you choose to be shot with?
Why would you choose that caliber?

lc

Fundamentalism: The sneaking suspicion that somewhere, someone, might be having fun.

Last edited by littlecanoe; 12-16-2016 at 06:22 PM.
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post #78 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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A good question, LC. I'd choose the 9mm. I would chose that over any other center fire pistol caliber to be shot at with or go up against. If we are talking one shot (a thing 9mm proponents cannot relate to), I think I would have more chance of returning fire and/or surviving. However, if you mean emptying a magazine of 15 rounds, I would reconsider. That many rounds of anything would be a sad affair for the person shot; however the bearer of such firepower must rely on his time and ability to fire that many rounds. While he is spraying all that lead, he is receiving fire.

Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned the double tap scenario and implied it was something new. It is not. Never has been. I have no recollection of anyone being trained to shoot one round and then stop to check how that went. Good grief. Too many people rely on gun articles and periodicals to inform them what to do. I am saddened by that. Look to your own self for survival options. Go out and do your own shooting/testing. Water jugs and wet newspapers wont' tell you everything, but they will enlighten you. Shoot some actual stuff. Compare what you have decided what is best to actual personal testing. Shoot your 380s and 38s and 45s into different media. Shoot real life obstacles that will stop your bullet. Shoot steel. Wait. That's another issue. There are those who shoot at steel plates suspended and designed to swing, and they come away with the notion that the smaller caliber's inability to move the steel means nothing. We've been led to believe that crap. Fire different calibers against steel. Note the impact and the resulting movement of steel. Not a measurement of a round's potential against flesh, you say. That's because you've bought into the gun rag hype that such shooting proves nothing about a round's performance against a human assailant. I will agree steel is not all inclusive; it does not indicate projectile reaction to ballistic jell or flesh. But it does prove incontrovertibly what caliber exerts the most force. And if you believe that is of no consequence, you are simply foolish. Shoot said steel with a +P 38 and after it the plate ceases its pitiful swing, shoot it again with a .357Magnum. Shoot it with your 9mm, then again with your .45.

Not sufficient evidence? Fire the lesser caliber into anything at all and observe the difference. I don't believe we can any longer label the .45acp as slow and heavy. The modern ammo tested against lesser calibers clearly show which is superior. Which begs the question, the eternal question, do you as an individual understand that if you favor the nine for its low recoil, higher capacity, cost of ammo, and most of all the ingrained belief the nine is best because everyone else likes it, then you are (I'm sorry in advance) you are weak. This is me, a slim non-muscular female, a person of less physical stamina and strength than most men--the little petite girly sissy who has gleaned from the previous post that I can shoot a 1911 better than you men can your little nines. I can do with my 45 what you cannot with your nines--that is stop an opponent with three times less rounds than you can.

The saddest part of this entire thread is that I must take from it the fact I am more proficient with big calibers than you are with the little ones. Also, that you are in doubt as to what you would be capable of when called on to fight.

I am outspoken; some of you can't accept that from a female. I think you base some of your opinions on the lie that a girl cannot know more than you about what has always been a masculine subject. No way can a female be more assertive or confident. No way will you heed her advice. It is automatically incorrect.
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post #79 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 09:59 PM
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I am outspoken; some of you can't accept that from a female. I think you base some of your opinions on the lie that a girl cannot know more than you about what has always been a masculine subject. No way can a female be more assertive or confident. No way will you heed her advice. It is automatically incorrect.


I've been excepting it for near on 50 yrs.I'm a passive Male Chauvinist! I know most women can't speak with authority on a masculine subject, but I like to hear them try anyway. You sound like you may be an exception.:-)

BTW! Jerry Miculek....One of the best hand gunners who ever walked the planet agrees with you! He say's the 357 Mag in revolver and 45 auto in pistol.

I don't think of myself as a staunch Republican or Democrat.
I am a Christian and a Conservative...........In that order!

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post #80 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 10:43 PM
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The saddest part of this entire thread is that I must take from it the fact I am more proficient with big calibers than you are with the little ones. Also, that you are in doubt as to what you would be capable of when called on to fight.

I am outspoken; some of you can't accept that from a female. I think you base some of your opinions on the lie that a girl cannot know more than you about what has always been a masculine subject. No way can a female be more assertive or confident. No way will you heed her advice. It is automatically incorrect.

Ms Lilly

Isn't it a bit interesting to consider just what you'd like to be hit with? I'm not gonna say personally. Thinking about it makes a person think a little harder though.

In one of my posts I noted that I had packed an XDs in 45 ACP for several years. I switched back to the nine because a Sig P938 fit my specific needs better. I also owned a Sig Tac Op 1911 in 45 ACP. Loved it and wish I still had it. But, it didn't fit what I needed at the time so I sold it to fund another gun project. I have kept all of my 45ACP Reloading paraphernalia. I really would like a Sig P220. I shot a friend's and shot it equally as well as my Tac Op. when I did my part, nice small COM groups at distance. I believe that it is a jump to say that the choice of 9mm is an inability to manage a 45. Sometimes it is simply a weighed choice based on several needs.

As to you being female I have defended you and like that you let your opinion be known. You aren't going to change easily once you make up your mind. Nothing wrong with that. I've been married for 30 years. Of my five children three are female. I have worked in an area of healthcare predominantly staffed by women for almost 25 years. If I didn't listen to, hear and consider what women say I'd be pushing up Daisy's. For my part, your gender has nothing to do with the conversation.

Now. NW has described himself as a passive male chauvinist. I'm gonna have to look that up and see if I'm one of those.

lc

Fundamentalism: The sneaking suspicion that somewhere, someone, might be having fun.

Last edited by littlecanoe; 12-16-2016 at 10:46 PM.
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