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post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-29-2020, 01:14 AM Thread Starter
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If you are a novice,would it be better to start with a "square" caliber eg bullet length and bore as close as possible tot each other(for accuracy). As example .429 200g versus .308 200g? Let US stay at 100 yds. Thinking about spin stabilization at lower velocities

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post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-29-2020, 04:45 AM
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at a 100 yards its more going to be a matter of how good your gun and barrel are. Ive shot moa with 9mm ar15s and have had 200 grain 308s spray like a shotgun. Pick two different guns and it does a 180. Lot has to do with bullet design, alloy, load, barrel condition, twist rate ect. Problem with heavys is you need faster twist rates and if you try to shoot a bullet fast through a fast twist barrel it can strip through the rifling especially if your not using a hard enough alloy. Also is it gas checked or not. Best accuracy about allways be with a good design gas checked and casted out of a hard alloy. Harder the better if its a good gun. Speed is a big factor too. Its about allways easier to find accuracy under 2000 fps in a rifle then it is if your trying to push to factory ammo levels. Again do to stabilization and softer alloys stripping through the rifling. Where you run into the headaches is most rifles are twisted for the average bullet and speed that particular gun is going to shoot factory ammo. Leading can be a factor to. If your not using a good lube and a hard bullet as soon as you get leading (and you will) accuracy suffers. When you start shooting out past a 100 the BC plays into it more. If you can cast hard and get a good load and have stabilization a heavy better bc bullet will usually retain better accuracy. But its not wrote in stone. Ive seen guys make great hits on steel out past 500 yards with a sixgun shooting a good bullet and have seen rifles that were so poor at those ranges you might as well throw rocks. If your talking your 444 id give you some ball park starting ideas. Ive got two molds that really shot in my 444s. First one is the ballistic cast 340 lfngc. Problem is ballistic cast as far as I know aren't making molds anymore. So a good start would be a 300 to 340 grain lfngc from lbt. Gas check it. Cast it out of at least 16 bhn and preferably around 20. Harder is better especially if you have a microgrove barrel. If your just starting out don't bother with a lube sizer. Pc is the way to go. My star lubsizer about collects dust today. I pc everything. It at least eliminates the leading and even will let you some day when your a bit more advanced play with softer alloys and hollow points. But don't expect those alloys to be tack drivers. A good starting point in any 44 is a 260-280 grain lfn. Im a big elmer kieth fan and love keith bullets but they don't allways feed well in lever guns and to be honest a lfn is usually much easier to find accuracy with. A bullet like the lbt 280 lfngc will work in about any 44 from a 44 special to a 444. Rifle cast bullets in 308 im not much of an expert on. I use my 30 cal rifles for killing deer and stick to jacketed bullets for that. In my opinion you need to step up to a 35 cal to make a decent cast bullet medium game killing rifle. That said I shoot a lot of 30 cal cast in my 300 bo's and even my ar10. Two bullets I use the most for that are the rcbs 130 gas check spitzer and the lee 150. I don't shoot subsonic so don't bother with the heavies. If you insist on killing deer with the 30s try the 175 lyman flat nose gas check pc'd and pushed to at least 1800 fps. I don't have a clue if I answered your question because its kind of confusing question. I don't really understand what a bullet square to the bore means.

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post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-29-2020, 07:02 AM
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Given a choice I will go bigger. If it is big enough speed is no longer required. You can punch clean through a buff the LONG way with a .45 caliber and less than 1400 fps.


I pretty much have to agree with Lloyd on his points.


There is no law that says you "have" to go fast.
Its just that fast is "easier" less rainbow, distance judging is less critical.
But remember that speed is not the answer for penetration.



On my .444marlin with .310 gr gas checked bullet I found 6 grains of Red Dot was just as good as 13 grains. And easier on both shoulder, ears, and wallet.


Look at how good the .45 colt and .45acp are. The latter probably not exceeding 850fps. But they will punch a 230 gr cast lead slug right through whatever you want punched. .357mag is IMO another sleeper in a rifle.


But the only true test is to cast/buy bullets and test for yourself in your gun.

Interests wide and widely varying.
Happily married 18 years. Retired on SS with lots of time to spend.
Started with .223 Ultra Bull barrel. Added .357 Talo barrel. Added an action and stock set bought here, 7.62x39 barrel. Then bought complete guns .444 Marlin and .300 Blackout. Leaving me at 4 complete rifles plus a barrel. Plus a 9mm stub job bought here, and I have been finding and buying H&R shotguns at our local pawn shop where they seem to go cheap.
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post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 06-29-2020, 08:51 AM
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Two theories of thought going on here. Elmer Keith liked a wide metplat at a lower velocity. Jack 'O like high ballistic coefficient and lots of velocity. Either are fine and they have there intended purposes.

I have built more custom guns than I care to admit. The formula that always worked for me was the Green Hill formula. If you know your bullet length, diameter, desired velocity and a gravity constant of 10.9 you can build a rifle that will out shoot you. There are a lot of online calculators that will work the formula for you if you just plug in your numbers.

When a factory rifle is designed it always has the twist rate set for the middle of the range of bullets that it is capable of shooting. The exception being the 244 Remington. Remington designed the gun with a 1 in 12 twist at about the same time that Winchester came out with the 243 Winchester with a 1 in 10 twist. The 1 in 12 twist would not stabilize a 100 grain bullet and the 244 Remington was a bust. They turned around and started putting a 1 in 10 twist in the same gun and renamed it 6mm Remington. The result was a rifle that could do anything that the 243 could do only do it a little better. It was too late though the 243 already had a head start and was well on its way and the 6mm Remington got left in the dust.

Usually factory twist rates will shine with the light for caliber bullets. I have never seen a 223/5.56 that would not stabilize a 40 grain bullet. Yet as the 223/5.56 evolved the bullets just kept getting longer and longer and as a result manufactures increased the twist rate to accommodate.

Guys like John Whidden who has won the national long rifle shoots at Camp Perry almost every year for the last decade build their rifles to shoot one specific bullet. Whidden takes his twist rate theories a step further and figures the actual baring surface of the bullet imposed on the rifling. I would say that he has the corner on the market. A little side note is that Whidden wins all of his competitions with a 243 Winchester and not a 6.5 Creed-whatever. Studying John might be why my favorite windy day coyote rifle is a 243, has a fast twist rate and shoots 105 grain bullets out of a 26 inch barrel. However John Whidden I am not and by a long shot. In my old age MOA only happens on a good day with a good rifle.

Back to the OP. I see your handle is 444M. That's a very nice round and one that I am quite fond of myself. If you are wanting to shoot a 200 grain .429 bullet in that rifle you will be fine as far as factory stabilization goes. However expecting it to shoot with a 200 grain bullet in a 308 most likely will leave you disappointed. That 200 grain bullet will have a way high ballistic coefficient will be spinning faster and will slide through the air a lot better than any .429 bullet made. This will become more apparent as the range increases, however at the 100 yards that you elated to not so much. If the range is only 100 yards then I choose the 444 over the 308 every time. My son has my 444 Marlin these days but in comparison I shoot 200 grain FTX bullets in my 450 Bushmaster bolt gun. 43 grains of 'Lilgun push that 200 grain bullet along at right at 2600 fps and even with my lack of ability as a shooter I still get sub 1 inch groups at 100 yards. My 308 will do none better with any bullet.
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post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 07-02-2020, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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Thanx gents.If I can rephrase my question with a statement.

In factorymade rifles it would be better to cast shorter bullets than the longer ones for accuracy.It would also be better to go for the bigger bore eg 44 rather than 30.

Thank you for your input

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post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 07-02-2020, 04:02 AM
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I don't think bore size has much to do with accuracy. Ive had 458mags, and 44mags that shot moa at a 100 yards and ive had man .223s do the same. I think range is the big factor here. Small bores with longer bullets in a gun that's twisted correctly for them tend to shoot better at long range. The wind effects them less. But even then ive seen some impressive LONG range shooting with 4570s and even big bore sixguns in that hands of someone who can shoot. But if they were more accurate at long range then the long range competitors would be shooting them. I really don't think theres a wrote in stone answer to your question other then bullet with higher bc,s tend to shoot better at long range. Even in sixguns if you want to bust rocks out past 500 yards a heavy for caliber bullet is usually better. Want so see miserable sixgun long range performance use a light for caliber wfn. They usually don't even make a 100 yards stable. Range and twist rate, bc and gun quality are the biggest factors in the best answer I can give you. Another thing is pressure. The problem with rifle vs pistol is a rifle is about limited to 2000 fps before a bullet needs LOTS of special attention and lots of load work to shoot right. So if you want to shoot full power then a big bore might be the way to go as a 300 weatherby pushing a 180 grain cast at over 3000fps just isn't the realm of beginning casters. A 44 mag at 18-- is much easier to get to shoot. If you want FULL power cast loads guns like your 444 and the 4570 are about the best.
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Originally Posted by 444M View Post
Thanx gents.If I can rephrase my question with a statement.

In factorymade rifles it would be better to cast shorter bullets than the longer ones for accuracy.It would also be better to go for the bigger bore eg 44 rather than 30.

Thank you for your input

BLUE LIVES MATTER!!!!!!!
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post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 07-02-2020, 07:40 AM Thread Starter
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Am I nuts,or my phone or the website.Maybe all three???


I have used Bison Ballistics online calculator and it tells me quite a different story.

Specs punched in.

130gr Lyman 311410A mould.
.308 cal
.86 projectile length(PL)
20.5 rifling twist(RT)
2500 mv(MV)

+Altitude 3000 FT
+Temp 90
+Humidity 18%
+ Constant for all calculations

Sg 1.5 (optimum for calc.)

210 gr
.308 cal.
1 PL
20.5 RT
2150 MV

Sg 1.51

2800 MV
Sg 1.51

3200 MV
Sg 1.73

--------------

168gr
.308 cal
.88 PL
12 RT
2450 MV

Sg. 5.28 way over spin.

If my phone,the website and me are correct why in the world do we have 1:12 twist for 308 Win.???

I must be nuts, sure all manufacturers cant be.

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