Two manuals big difference - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-30-2019, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Default Two manuals big difference

The Hodgdon's online loads shows 21 gr of Lilgun as max in the 300 blkout using a 125 gr jacket bullet. the Lyman #5 manual shows 18 gr lilgun as max for same 125 gr jacket bullet. that is a big difference. both references show about 2225 fps for the 18 gr load but Hodgdon's takes it up to 2400 fps for the 21 gr. I just wonder if the 21 gr is really safe? Any suggestions? Wallacem in Ga
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-30-2019, 05:09 PM
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Suggestion, start low work up, pay attention to the web of the case with micrometer. The gun will tell you when it is getting unhappy. FWIW I KNOW my 16 inch AR upper says NO NO NO with LilGun well before you get to 20 grains.

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 11-30-2019, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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I shot 18 grs. in my AR and also my Ruger American Ranch. Both showed no sign at all or high pressure.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-01-2019, 01:07 PM
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I use maximum load data for reference only (in the '80s when I had a bad case of "Magnumitis" and loaded most of my 44 Magnums right to the edge). Today I very rarely get near max. powder charges. Always start with the starting loads listed. Sometimes I'll reduce a max load 10%-12% for starting loads as long as the load does not go below the manual's listed starting load

Reloading manuals are not exacting formula. They are reports of the results obtained with the test facilities' components (all will vary slightly from lot to lot) on their own test equipment and these little differences will produce different results.

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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-04-2019, 01:39 PM
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I use Lyman 49 and a newer Hornady. Big differences between the 2. With H110/W296, makes me wonder...

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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 06:37 AM
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I see that now and then for some calibers. Take a look at the test platform to see how comparable they are. Still it emphasizes how each firearm is a law unto itself.
Having had a little experience w statistics, I start wondering how they get away with using 1-3 guns to develop loads.
It would probably be much more statisticaly rigorous (and EXPENSIVE) to use a sample of 5-??10 guns.
I've wondered if any of the powder makers test loads multiple firearms of the same cartridge?

Like others have said, start low and work up.

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dand View Post
I see that now and then for some calibers. Take a look at the test platform to see how comparable they are. Still it emphasizes how each firearm is a law unto itself.
Having had a little experience w statistics, I start wondering how they get away with using 1-3 guns to develop loads.
It would probably be much more statisticaly rigorous (and EXPENSIVE) to use a sample of 5-??10 guns.
I've wondered if any of the powder makers test loads multiple firearms of the same cartridge?

Like others have said, start low and work up.
As far as I'm aware, most if not all published load data is developed using pressure test barrels, not actual firearms. Their goal isn't a valid statistical sampling, it is simply load data that meets SAAMI pressure specs in a representative barrel with a chamber that also meets SAAMI specs (presumably, minimum spec chambers, but I'm not sure if that is the case - it's just what I'd do).

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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 10:34 AM
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Part of it in my opinion is marketing. Lots of folk out there still got the magnumitis thing where faster is better. The powder companies and bullet makers know that so their published data has to stay one step ahead of the competition.

When I was younger I was badly suckered into the need for speed and a flattened primer with a sharp ridge around the primer dent was the answer. I got to trim brass after two loadings and then throw them away after four because they were getting that shiny ring a half inch up from the base which indicated case head separation was inevitable.

I have more experience with the 243 than anything else and have killed one shy of 400 coyotes with a 243. In recent years I have gone to shooting the Hornady 58 Grain VMAX only and the disparity in load data between the manuals is crazy. Lyman doesn't even show a load using H4895 while Hodgdon shows it as one of the prefered loads. The top load of 43 grains is running 3850 fps with about(going from memory here) 50,000 CUP while the starting load is 40 grains at 3650 fps and around 43,000 CUP. What I do know is that brass last almost forever at 43,000 CUP( some is on the 10th loading without being annealed and only trimmed once) and I can't tell the difference when shooting at a coyote and they can't tell the difference when dying.

Each gon is a different beast and everything in the manuals is a generalization. Start low and work up to the sweet spot which is usually somewhere south of the max charge published.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 12:21 PM
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When I started to play with the 300 Blk, I compiled a bunch of data for it, my collection has (For MAX with 125 grn) Sierra: lil-gun 17.2 grn @2200 fps, Nosler: lil-gun 18 grn @ 2151 fps, Hodgdon (in 2014): lil-gun 18 grn @ 2185fps. So I'd stick to 18 grains max, only exceeding it if you were chasing a node paying particular attention to pressure signs.

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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 12:32 PM
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lyman manuals always have lame loading data. That and something users of lilgun usually see fast is it kind of stalls rather then quickly showing pressure signs. You start stepping over realistic loading manuals recommendation and you get to a point where putting one more grain in doesn't give you a bit more velocity. Add a second and same thing. Ive even seen average velocity swings from 30 fps to 200 with just a grain of powder and most times its 200fps slower not faster. I quit using it. It burns way to hot for my liking. that said it would probably be fine in a bolt 300 bo. I wouldn't use it in an ar15 for mag dumps though. In the blackout I use 110 or aa9. Cooler burning and better extream spreads for me. Now ill tell you that I shoot a 110 barnes with 24 grains of 110 and barnes bullets usually show pressure faster then a cup and core and lilgun is slower burning then 110. Id have absolutely no qualms about running a 125 with 21 grains of lilgun. I run 22 grains of 110 with a 130 all the time and that's a hotter load then your talking. No pressure signs and great brass life in ars and bolt guns.

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