ATF Firearm frame definition affecting court cases - Page 3 - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 07:16 AM Thread Starter
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My opinion is that it shouldn't matter. The ATF is unconstitutional and so is any gun control laws. What is defined as a firearm should be irrelevant since making us fill out a 4473 and submit to a background check to exercise a right already guaranteed in the Constitution is an infringement.

That being said if the ATF changes the rules for ARs at this point it's going to be next to impossible to enforce. There are way too many parts already out there. The only real option they have is to write an exception to include AR lowers so basically nothing will change.

Liberal Logic 101:
Americans shall be required to submit to a background check to exercise a right already guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment while any foreigner shall be allowed into America without submitting to a background check.
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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 07:40 AM
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Its no different with a handgun. Only part considered the gun is the serial numbered frame. You can buy a slide barrel trigger ect and change what you want. Same thing with a single action. The frame is the serial numbred part. What you do with the rest of it is your business. IF it was not that way we wouldn't have custom guns.


What a bare ar lower is not is a rifle or a handgun. Its why it has to be classified by the batf as other. Same thing with those short barreled pistol gripped shotguns. No stock, not a shotgun by definition, no rifled barrel not a rifle by definition. So they fall in the gaps of the laws. Ideas figured out by people smarter then me.


I do agree with those who say poke it with a stick and it wont get better. It will get worse. So I say educate yourself and build whats legal and quit looking for rock solid definitions. Bottom line is all of this ar15 pistol and pistol grip shotguns did was skirt that tax stamp that you had to have before that was unconstitutional to begin with. But if you want to pay the stamp put a carbine stock on it and send the 200 bucks.


Even with an 80 percent lower you have to follow the laws. You cant take an 80 percent lower and build a short barreled rifle and use it legally. Like I said too if you build a 80 percent ar or glock you cant sell it, give it away or even leave it to a family member. You cant even legally have your handy neighbor do the work to machine it out. IT HAS to be done by you and owned by you period. Now any dummy will say whos going to know? Probably nobody but the fed pen probably isn't a nice place and its not worth selling a 400 dollar gun and going there to me. But if you think the existing laws are a perversion you can go the 80 percent route and have a gun that has no serial number or way to trace it.


What to me is the real perversion of the laws is states skirting or adding to the batfs laws and definitions. Michigan is one of them. Here if you have an ar15 pistol with a barrel longer then 8.5 in the overall length will exceed 26 inchs and MI says if its longer then 26 its not a pistol. Its your responsibility to know these confusing laws and ignorance of the law isnt an excuse. That said I wonder how many thousands of michganders have 10.5 in ar pistols and don't realize there breaking the state law. They also have handgun registration. They call it a safety inspection but its registration any way you look at it because you can even get the fourms on line and mail them to the police dept. So if I build a ar pistol on an 80 percent lower technicaly I have to register it as a pistol and to do so have to get a serial number. Comical thing is I can make one up and send in the fourm but if im stopped with it it had better have that number on the frame. Some states are even worse. Some of them demand if you build a 80 percent lower before you put it together you have to apply for a serial number by the batf. Gettting a headache yet?? Bottom line is I hate the federal government controlling guns but if anyone should it sure should be them because it is a constitutional right. States have no business in it what so ever. Gun laws should be universal in every state. Its OUR RIGHT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcw View Post
how a "Lower" with no trigger, no handle, no firing mechanism, no ammunition's supply mechanism, no tube attached to aid in propelling a projectile, no bolt, can POSSIBLY be defined as a firearm...

it's a legal perversion of a definition by dysfunctional legislators...

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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 10:10 AM
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Here is a copy and paste I got from an 80% website. As with any ATF laws there are gray areas.


Can I sell or transfer my completed lower?




Yes, you can transfer or sell the lower you built as an individual.


But you have to ensure your actions arenít being interpreted as "manufacturing with the intent to sell".


The ATF says that you cannot make an 80 percent lower into a firearm with the intent of selling it. Thatís the key: Intent. And to make things more confusing, the ATF and Federal law have plenty of legalese, statutes, and wordy sections about how "manufactured firearms must be serialized" and "only an FFL can make and sell firearms".


But these regulations only apply to manufacturers, those in the business of building guns. Youíre an individual building your gun for personal use. So, yes, you can sell your completed 80 percent lower to someone later if you didnít originally intend to sell it.

If you bought 10 lowers, machined them all, and posted them for sale online, this would likely be interpreted as manufacturing with intent to sell. Use common sense here.
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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spruce View Post
Okay, so what part of an AR should constitute a firearm?

I'm not arguing whether or not it fits the current definition. I'm just saying if the BATF changes the rules, or lawmakers pass a law, redefining "firearm", or what configuration of an AR makes it a "firearm" it won't be as simple as it is now - and I guarantee you won't like it!
shouldn't a "Firearm" be a COMPLETE mechanism being capable of actually "firing"? an incomplete lower, frame, barrel, slide is nothing more than a paperweight...isn't it? until completely assembled, cannot be operational...can it?

try taking your 80% lower to the range and shoot targets with it NOT being completed...methinks it would be extremely difficult...

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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 12:45 PM
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Since folks don't like the legal definition of a firearm, maybe they should start calling it a "serialized frame" instead of a firearm, then maybe folks would be more happy. Most laws have some sort of definition in the law that it explains somewhere in the document. Instead of naming "serialized frame" or some other longer word, they define what a "firearm" is to simplify the document.


As for the short barreled shotgun, I believe it is defined as AOW "any other weapon". Since it came from the factory in the short format and was not "designed" to be shoulder fired, it doesn't meet the shotgun definition. That is how it falls through the cracks.


I too see it as a "pushing the law as far as possible" as well as the arm brace AR pistol to get around the existing laws. Don't get me wrong, I think these laws should all go by the way side, but this is clearly not following the spirit of the current laws.


The bump stock was another way to skirt the law to simulate full auto fire. Problem with them and any of the other things already mentioned, we are one idiot shooting away from them getting banned and or at least getting on the naughty list of the Dems and being attacked.



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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-23-2020, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcw View Post
how a "Lower" with no trigger, no handle, no firing mechanism, no ammunition's supply mechanism, no tube attached to aid in propelling a projectile, no bolt, can POSSIBLY be defined as a firearm...
Years ago, they used to sell Auto Sears for ARs until the BATF declared them machine guns. They just up and declared a couple of pieces of metal and a spring a machine gun. If you had an Auto Sear and didn't even own a gun, you still possed a machine gun. Doesn't make a lot of sense but what does the government do that does?

That was some years ago when the "Shotgun News" was an inch and a half thick and had tons of weird stuff that I should have bought back then. I had a subscription and it came out weekly or bimonthly. It's all but disappeared now.
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-23-2020, 08:30 PM
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I don't like the idea of a felon having an 80% lower. It's not like he's going to make a lamp out of it. Over my pay grade.
post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-23-2020, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I don't like the idea of a felon having an 80% lower. It's not like he's going to make a lamp out of it. Over my pay grade.
I don't think they should have automobiles either. Can kill more people with a vehicle than a gun.

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-23-2020, 10:52 PM
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Let's look beyond the fact that these laws are an infringement of our 2A rights; when a law is written, it is incumbent upon the law makers to ensure the law is written in a way that it does it's intended action. If you write a law that bans red cars, don't expect me to not get a black one. If black cars become an issue, then rewrite the law to include them, period. Mind you, I don't like it, but that is what should happen here if they want to arrest people based on lowers, then include them in the law.

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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-24-2020, 06:26 AM
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news flash its the same for any gun. A glock lower is the gun. you can put on any upper same for 1911 shotgun or a bolt gun. The receiver is the registered part of the gun other then the new sigs which are serial numbed on the internals so you can swap grip frames. . If it weren't you wouldn't be able to swap barrels ect. With any of them you can swap barrels calibers, stocks triggers ect. You can sure legally swap the bolt out on a rem 700 so whats the difference. You can also buy a rem 700 bare action and yup it has a serial number on it and has to be logged or registered just like an ar15 lower does. Slippery slope if you are claiming treating an ar lower as the gun. It would about end custom handguns in calibers like 500 linebaughs ect. Because all that's used in the bare frame
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcw View Post
how a "Lower" with no trigger, no handle, no firing mechanism, no ammunition's supply mechanism, no tube attached to aid in propelling a projectile, no bolt, can POSSIBLY be defined as a firearm...

it's a legal perversion of a definition by dysfunctional legislators...

MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! STEEL FOR TANKS NOT FENCES!!!
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