ATF Firearm frame definition affecting court cases - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-19-2020, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
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Default ATF Firearm frame definition affecting court cases

An AR-15 lower does not meet the ATF definition of a firearm so it has affected numerous court cases. Some judges have rightfully ruled in cases where felons are charged with possession of AR lowers that the lower does not meet the definition of a firearm so the cases are ruled not guilty.


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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-19-2020, 04:32 PM
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An 80% finished lower is NOT a firearm. A complete lower is a firearm according to BATFE rules and regulations.



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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-19-2020, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Not according to many judges rulings lately. A stripped lower does not meet the ATF definition of a firearm even though it has a serial number on it. That's the issue being talked about in the video.

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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-19-2020, 07:29 PM
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Judges get to rule as they interpret... whether correctly or not.

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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-19-2020, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gemihur View Post
Judges get to rule as they interpret... whether correctly or not.
My thoughts exactly
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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-19-2020, 10:32 PM
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Actually, the judge has it right, it's the law makers that write poorly defined laws that are the problem. Tech changes so fast that laws don't keep up, so it's not entirely lawmakers fault, but this has been an issue for a long time, and still they haven't fixed it, so it's good that a judge has finally tried to hold them to account.

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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 07:51 AM
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It doesn't meet the definition of a handgun or rifle and is registered as other but is unless the law changes or is clarified by the batf it is considered a gun. Just like those short barreled pistol gripped shotguns. They aren't a shotgun or handgun but are a serial numbered gun. We should be careful what we hope for. Right now you can buy them easily and even get 80 percent receivers that don't need number. We can build ar15 pistols with any length of barrel. If we push the batf in this era where our ar15s are under attack by the liberals the definitions the batf come up with might not be what we want to see. Kind of like poking a sleeping bear if you ask me. What you might end up with is stupid ar15 rules like the poor people of CA have to deal with.

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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 08:27 AM
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Well, the BATF makes the rules and there has to be SOME part of any gun design that constitutes a "firearm". Otherwise you could have ALL the parts and not have a firearm! Be thankful the BATF chose the lower to be serial numbered. It could be worse - they could have chosen the upper to be serial numbered!

I sure don't understand the logic behind those short barreled pistol gripped shotguns. Without a tax stamp you can't possess a short barreled shotgun, or a shotgun less than 28"(?) OAL, and handguns have to have rifling to be legal. But if you combine all those illegal things it becomes legal????!!!

My guess is the judges (maybe not all of them, but most) making these rulings on AR's are NOT trying to clear up or simplify the current rules, they are attempting to further muddy the issue and hoping the BATF will adopt more restrictive rules on them. Legislating from the bench to further their own anti gun agenda.
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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 08:50 AM
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It is my belief that those short barreled pistol gripped shotguns are all front stuffers and black powder. So called "Howdah" guns. As such they slip through a crack.

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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 01-20-2020, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-mega View Post
Actually, the judge has it right, it's the law makers that write poorly defined laws that are the problem. Tech changes so fast that laws don't keep up, so it's not entirely lawmakers fault, but this has been an issue for a long time, and still they haven't fixed it, so it's good that a judge has finally tried to hold them to account.
I agree. Judges need to rule on laws as written, not what everyone "thinks" they should be including the ATF.

Liberal Logic 101:
Americans shall be required to submit to a background check to exercise a right already guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment while any foreigner shall be allowed into America without submitting to a background check.



H&R family: Topper 88 16 Gauge Mod, Pardner 16 gauge Full, Model 480 Topper Jr .410 Full, Handi .300 AAC Blackout
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