The 223 Short Project. - Page 65 - Graybeard Outdoors
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post #641 of 652 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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Default George's Reloads...4-5...some issues...no annealing

George reports: On a side note cases are going on their 4th loading (5th if you include the 1x firing as .223) have 2 that are starting to get cracks in the shoulder/neck junction. But it's only the FC cases doing that surprisingly LC cases look great still!

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Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
As long as there are no small cracks in the metal structure, annealing can completely reset the clock.

However, many say that a full anneal on already formed brass is not optimum. I am not fully convinced of this "new" position as many used to do a full anneal on formed brass (check out Varmint Al).

Another big part of the equation is how much each loading "works" your brass (cold work comes from yielding of the metal). Since your chamber was intended as "no ream / no turn", the neck is probably a "loose fit" that does result in average or more brass yielding with each cycle. If so, even with a full anneal one or two firings will get you back off of dead soft.

If your chamber / loading dies result in less than typical brass yielding, adding some "work" back in after a full anneal may help. The work will typically be running the brass through a little larger than normal expander (say 243) and then sizing the brass back down.

As far as life, your initial forming yielded brass from say 34 cal down to 22 cal. This brass already had some "cold work" in it. Each firing / loading cycle adds in more cold work, but each individual cycle is a small amount of cold work compared to what you start with. My "at least double" was probably very conservative.
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post #642 of 652 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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Default 223 Short v1 50 Yard Accuracy Test Revisited

In anticipation of the 223 Short v1 100 yard test coming shortly, here are the 50 yard tests results for comparison. 22 Mamba testing will begin using the best Short loads as a starting point.

Savage Axis - 11lbs +
Aftermarket Accutrigger
Reinforced and weighted stock
17" Very Heavy Barrel - 1.02" at the muzzle - 1:9 twist
From the Bench off bags
6-24 Scope
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Last edited by briannmilewis; 05-26-2019 at 11:01 PM. Reason: Chart Update v3
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post #643 of 652 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 12:52 AM Thread Starter
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Default 22 Mamba AR15 Update

Not to put too much pressure on George...he finished the last few bits of the 22 Mamba AR - go-gauge and case gauge, and is shipping out the upper and other bits Thursday or Friday (no pressure mate). I built my own lower with a two stage trigger.

We know from George's extensive testing that regular AR 223 mags can only be loaded to 4 or 5 rounds, in order to feed and eject 100%. If they are loaded with more than 5 rounds there is almost 100% chance that one round will tilt enough to fail to feed and get slammed by the bolt between the mag and the throat.

I started to search the web trying to see if someone had specifically modified any mags for the 22 TCM (a bit short for the 223 Short/22 Mamba) or 221 Fireball, .275" longer than needed, but work fine in bolt rifles. I found a youtube video where someone had successfully used a 9mm Glock Lower for the 22 TCM.

Using Lees Reloading manual I was looking at pistol cartridge dimensions from 357 Mag thru 500 S&W. Then I was searching youtube and came a cross a 30 M1 Carbine AR conversion.

Wow...lo and behold...the guy had made a custom mag for the 30 M1 Carbine...I looked it up in the Lee manual and the dimensions are just thousandths of a difference in width and length than the 223 Short and the 22 Mamba.

So the search is on for one of these magazines as it could be a plug and play solution for the 22 Mamba AR.

30 Carbine AR YouTube.
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post #644 of 652 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
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Default Regarding Choreographing Loads

In 2017 I bought a MagnetoSpeed "on-barrel" chrono and could not use it on my heavy test rifle, because the barrel was too big at the muzzle. A 1" muzzle and .224 bullet or less, was a losing proposition confirmed by the factory.

The AR has a standard sporter muzzle, and I have another for the Savage 16, so once the most accurate rounds are sorted, I will retest them with a chrono attached to the barrels. I'll have to buy a new chrono as I sold the first one soon after I discovered I could not use it. Chrono and phone interface is about $200 from amazon prime.
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post #645 of 652 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
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Default Some case forming notes from real experience...

During 22 Mamba forming die development, it was discovered by George, that 223 parent brass, with the extra thickness around the shoulder and neck area when forming the short cases, did not want to form the 30 shoulder. It was crush city.

So with much experimentation, George discovered that if he set the 223 Short die with its 23 shoulder, 2 1/2 turns off the shell holder and formed the case, then changed to the 22 Mamba die with its 30 shoulder, set normally, and finished the case forming, cases formed without losses.

Also in George's own words: "Now 1 more thing AR's are notorious for swelling and pushing the shoulder forward during the firing cycle. I intentionally made it where you have to do a little extra cam-over on the press to do a full shoulder bump.

You can play with this using your case gauge as a reference. Reason being is I didn't want to have to make you 2 dies for the bolt gun and AR or overwork the brass all the time just to keep the AR happy."

It is possible I will be at the range next week to finish 223 Short 100 yard tests and fire forming 100 22 Mamba cases using 5.4gr of TiteGroup. George says that while that load may not be the be-all and end-all of case forming, I can work up from this load to more potent loads using L'Il Gun once cases are basically formed.

I will publish data on the final case capacity comparisons across many brands compared to 223 Short case capacities when 22 Mamba fire forming is done.
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post #646 of 652 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 02:27 AM Thread Starter
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Default 22 Mamba AR Magazine Solution Found

So the standard 10 round mag suffers from cartridge tilting and misfeeds if more than 5 rounds are loaded.

George remembered another person who shoots all sorts of rounds in his ARs and seems he created a pretty much universal solution for 1.7" cartridges or less in ARs.

Looks like we have a reengineered PMag that will do full duty for the 22 Mamba AR and the designer used it for many other short cartridges. Maybe might work for the 223 Short.

From George based on discussion with designer. "The P-mag's have a cool feature called anti tilt followers, there are 2 ribs in the mag which the .223 shoulder rides near that they also use for the anti tilt feature. You chop the follower just past this point. The spring all resides behind that rib so no cutting necessary.

The metal strip made for the ramp will go the entire length of the mag (top to bottom) and will serve as the new front wall of the magazine. As for the ramp I would think the bottom of the ramp should be just below the centerline of the bullet of a loaded round at an angle to be flush with the top of the magazine.

He said he just used a 2 part epoxy to set the follower in place. Didn't give specific type, but in my experience I would get at least a 3-5min epoxy as the faster ones are stupid fast and near impossible to work with. JB weld would also likely work, and would afford you more time to "set" things before it cures."

Thanks again one and all for playing - got the creative juices going, produced ideas, reminded people of who they know and what they have seen, and helped us find a practical solution. The GBO community does it again.
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post #647 of 652 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
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Default It's Alive! It's Alive! The 22 Mamba AR lives

Just finished assembling the 22 Mamba AR rifle, the first of its kind. George built a pistol, first of its kind.

Lower AeroPrecision (Kiwi Custom Guns); Lower Parts Kit (Midway AR-STONER AR-15 Customizable Lower Receiver Part Kit); Two stage trigger (LaRue Tactical); Barrel (Savage Take-off); Grip, Stock, Hand Guard, Bolt Carrier Group (Misc Suppliers); Scope CLife 6-24x50 (Amazon); Caldwell Brass Catcher (Amazon).

Issues with assembly. Had to file out a small amount of material from the front and rear pivot pin holes on the lower to fit. Tons of YouTube videos to help lower assembly, George assembled the upper.

Range next week for fire forming cases and maybe a revisit for first load testing.
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post #648 of 652 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 11:54 PM Thread Starter
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Default

AR magazine feeding clue seems to be loaded long cartridges 1.58"+ with tips close to front of magazine.

Manually cycling the bolt these 223 Shorts feed and eject no issues when stacked 5 deep. George says 22 Mamba case shape works better than the Short.
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post #649 of 652 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 02:36 AM Thread Starter
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Default Formed my first 22 Mamba cases from scratch today

Formed my first 22 Mamba cases today - 25 in all.

I will cut and trim tomorrow, just wanted to see how it went.

1st half formed with 223 Short die, second half with 22 Mamba die.
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post #650 of 652 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 02:57 AM Thread Starter
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Default First 22 Mamba AR Range Trip - Fire forming Cases

This aspect of my range trip went well...as long as I loaded only three 223 Short rounds into a MagPul PMag M3 10 round there were no feeding or extraction problems. As soon as I loaded 4 or 5 cartridges, jamo-matic.

Jamming consisted of bad feeds and the round being jammed against the end of the chamber vertically by the bolt head.

Case forming with a stout 12.5gr of L'Il Gun behind A-Max 53gr and Nosler 53gr bullets went well.

Cases measured fully formed. Cases condition very good.

I also went to do 100 yard final 223 Testing...betting my scope, Shoot-n-See and my eyes would prevail. Total bust, what I thought were hits were pure fantasy.

So I got a spotting scope today, via Amazon..
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