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Smokeless powder muzzleloader

23K views 57 replies 23 participants last post by  brokenxj22 
#1 ·
Help please ! I have been looking for a smokeless powder muzzleloader and it seems that they are rare. Today while scanning the internet I saw a company, SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING.COM, that makes a barrel to fit a Handy Rifle frame. Has anyone seen or even tried one of these barrels ?


If anyone has info or used one please give me a shout.


Thanks
Rick
 
#2 ·
The owner(s) is a member here. I have heard nothing but good reviews of their products.

Thanks, Dinny
 
#4 ·
Get yourself a 45-70 Handi barrel, and have it converted to a smokeless muzzleloader.

One of the members on this site does the conversion. The conversion uses the Savage smokeless breech plug. He does an excellent job, as anyone who has one done will attest.

If you want to go this route send me a PM.
 
#6 ·
OldSchoolRanger said:
Get yourself a 45-70 Handi barrel, and have it converted to a smokeless muzzleloader.

One of the members on this site does the conversion. The conversion uses the Savage smokeless breech plug. He does an excellent job, as anyone who has one done will attest.

If you want to go this route send me a PM.
If your referring to Slufoot, he doesn't do the conversions anymore. The H&R's are about the cheapest way to get into the smokeless game. Doug's message board has loads of info and a couple guys that will do the conversion .
 
#7 ·
I have one of Slufoot's conversions and can tell you that the standard Handi 45-70 barrel is a good candidate for a smokeless muzzleloader. You will end up with about 20 inches of usable barrel but I have seen very little muzzle velocity loss and the gun is so Handy, pun intended. I love the fact that you can shoot it and not have to clean it. In fact, mine shoots better dirty as it seems to make the sabot fit tighter. I use the devastating 195 grain 40 cal Barnes Expander MZ Bullets and H4198 powder. Reloading can be a tad slow as I keep the H&R ram rod in my pack. I have spare MZ forends but I would have to rig a barrel band which I really have not done yet nor will I probably as I can have the ram rod ready to deploy from the pack. I have yet to be stopped by a game warden but expect one day that will happen as the gun does not look like a muzzleloader at all. I think if you blindfolded me and had me shoot the smokeless 45 Cal MZ and a standard Handi 45-70, I doubt I could tell the difference.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Looking for an inexpensive but good entry level smokeless Muzzle Loader go to u-tube and type In Hankin's rifles He converts CVA's the Hunter and the Apex. His video's will give you some insight as to what you may want. I have the Apex 45-70 converted they are shooters to 300 yards Also you may try Doug's message boards there is a wealth of information on smokeless muzzle loading. I also have an Encore 45-70 converted by slufoot as well as others I know people who have the afore mentioned company and they like them I believe they have a 1-36 twist But I am partial to a rifle with a 1-20 twist or less
 
#9 ·
My recent smokeless ML is my H&R .50 caliber Huntsman with a screw in replacement MU breechplug using CCI standard (non magnum) 209 primers.
After seeing a post here on GB's I tried my Hunstman and it works great! I am shooting black Harvester ribbed sabots and have shot both .451 and .452 diameter bullets, 185 grain lead bullets, 200, 230, and 250 grain half jacket bullets, both Hornady and XTP's. I am using 41.0 grains of IMR3031 at this time since I did not get to much time to experiment before the season this year.
All shot well enough to hunt with out to 100 yards and I will continue to work up a load for next year.
The proper breechplug is NECCESSARY to do this. I do not advise or recommend this for anyone else but for me it works....<><....:)
 
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#10 ·
Please be aware that using smokeless powder in a Huntsman or converted 45-70 barrel requires the use of SABOT LOADS ONLY, no full bore conicals, the sabot provides a safe pressure relief for excess pressure.

Be safe! :tango_face_wink:

Tim
 
#11 ·
Tim is right IMR-4198 no more than 60 grains I found they shoot best with harvester blue sabots .400 diameter bullets 200 grain and the afore mentioned powder I have both H&R and Encore 45-70 conversions and the sweet spot seems to be 56 grains of 4198
 
#13 · (Edited)
We are talking about the 45-70 after they have been converted to shoot Smokeless (Rifle powder) You are right never shoot Rifle Powder in any muzzle loader PERIOD with the huntsman you may get away with it for a time but it will happen sooner or later BOOM you are treading on dangerous ground Even a Remington 700 UML that can handle 200 grains of 777 pellets will blow up with rifle powder
 
#17 ·
This ain't my first rodeo, and obviously none of you have had shrapnel hit you from the rifle on the next bench, yet. But chances are very good that that it will be from your bench when it happens. Oh, you'll probably get lucky and get away with it for awhile, until your luck runs out and you won't.

The Huntsman/Sidekick barrels and the Metrics Unlimited breech plugs are not rated for smokeless powders.

Any time someone says"They don't know", believe them. I do know that you are playing with a ticking time bomb, and it's not a matter of will it happen, but when.

Promoting this on a public forum is just totally irresponsible. You have several people reading here with absolutely no experience with any muzzleloader.

Here is something I wrote about it over a year ago when you guys were promoting it then. Haven't changed my mind about any of it.

busta 10:29 AM 10-21-2015
Some here might want to do more research. It is my understanding that Green Mountain made at least the early Huntsman/Sidekick barrels for NEF. The same company that made drop in barrels for the T/C Sidelocks, and Knight Rifles barrels. I can take a slug from my .502" Knight bores with 1:28 twist rate or my .502" NEF bores with 1:28 twist rate, and they are a perfect match. The land to groove ratio is identical.

This would include both my 2003 Stainless Steel NEF Huntsman and 2004 Stainless Steel NEF Sidekick, both with 7/8" breech plugs. Now the barrel on my 2008 Stainless Steel H&R Sidekick (Yes, H&R, under Remington umbrella) with 5/8" breech plug seems to be a horse of a different color.

I know for a fact that the MU breech plug was not designed or intended for shooting smokeless. I was the tester of those plugs for Blackhorn 209 and other BP Subs. That plug uses a direct dump of primer flame into the powder through a rather large flash hole with no real flame channel other than the transition from the bottom of the primer pocket. The flash hole starts at ≈ 0.040", and will enlarge rather quickly using smokeless powders. This flash hole is not like a replaceable vent liner, and anyone that knows smokeless muzzleloading knows what happens when the flash hole in your vent liner enlarges into the 0.035ish and above range does.

Anyone shooting smokeless in these rifles with any breech plug need look no further than themselves for full responsibility of their decision to do so. The makers of the rifles and breech plugs, make no claims of their capability to do so. Actually, quite the contrary.

It's your rifle and your life, but I think it rather irresponsible to promote this in these factory rifles with a breech plug that clearly was not designed for it. There are new muzzleloading enthusiasts that read here and have absolutely no clue as to the apparent dangers.

Just something I feel needed to be said.
The sabot is definitely not a safety valve. One of the .50 caliber Savage smokeless muzzleloaders that I have shot actually come unglued with one of those safety valves. The only real safety valve in muzzleloading, is the one between your ears. If your valve is stuck, maybe muzzleloading (especially smokeless muzzleloading) is something you shouldn't be doing?

A few years back, I spent some time in a ballistic lab. Pressure Barrels and very sophisticated equipment to record time pressure curves using any powder you can think of.

When I say you'll shoot your eye out, it's just a nice way of saying you might be setting yourself up for a Darwin Award, if your lucky enough to only lose your eye. I've witnessed lucky, and don't want to be standing next to the next lucky!
 
#22 ·
Yep, I bought one of those back 12 or 13 years ago. I couldn't send it back fast enough. The Douglas rifling in the bore was the only good thing I can honestly say about it. The breech plug was only threaded into the lands. I even sent them my receiver to have the barrel "fitted" I think was the term they used. The fit and finish was horrible, and breech plug was horrendous. They did refund the purchase price, and I was elated to get out of that mess for just shipping costs.

Run, away!

I've got a .45 cal Slufoot, but it's a smoker, and always will be.
 
#26 ·
........the only thing that got wasted with my Sluefoot conversion was deer. It was temperamental in the cold muzzleloader season here until I fed it duplex loads.
 
#27 ·
I never had problems with mine. What powder/load were you originally using, when you had problems? Hope you weren't using the muzzle loading (read B.P.) primers.
 
#32 ·
So stop trying to sell your bubble gum, I'm not buying!
 
#35 ·
What does it say on the barrel if it says Black Powder then you are treading in uncharted waters. I have dealt with these smokeless ML'ers ever since I got my Savage ML-II and have converted several to use rifle powder I know of no 50 caliber rifles that rifle powder can be used. I have a Remington 700 Ultra Muzzle Loader that will shoot 4 50 grain 777 pellets and rifle powder can not be used in it. I remember a case where a fellow shot rifle powder in his ML'er he got away with it for several shots and it finally gave way and blew up. They constantly preach no rifle powder in rifles that say Black powder. Do as you wish but you don't use a stick of dynamite as a fire cracker What is your eye sight worth or loosing a couple fingers or even your life
 
#36 ·
busta & ourway77 - Hey guys I was trying not to be a jerk, and let my NY attitude out. But, it seems to me that the both of you need a lesson in reading comprehension. All I said was that the Huntsman & Sidekick barrels are made of 4140 steel which is the same as that used in high pressure rifle barrels. You can go over my posts, and if you can show me where I was promoting the use of smokeless in anything, I'll be glad to fess up.

Until then, I really think the both of you should read my post with your glasses on, or with the assistance of someone that can translate what I wrote. It was a statement of fact. H&R's Huntsman & Sidekick barrels are made of 4140 steel, the same steel used in high pressure rifle barrels. You guys got that? Or do I need to say it s...l..o..w..l..y?
 
#37 ·
We both know exactly what you are doing. You can try to deny it all you want, but you're only lying to yourself. Everyone else can see right through your smoke screen. Or more appropriately, your smokeless screen. "Sorry, I'm not buying your bubble gum!"


The sabot is your safety valve, not the thickness of the breech plugs. The reason this is possible is because of the steel that H&R used. The steel for the Huntsman & Sidekick MZ barrels is the same as for the regular rifle barrels. Both unmentionable BP are okay to use for this. If your traveling this road, remember don't try to hot rod the loads. Caution is the word. As noted on another thread: Note the loads used for the Savage Smokeless is not directly interchangeable with what can be used in the Huntsman/Sidekicks.
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/113-huntsman-sidekick-muzzle-loaders/260466-smokeless.html


I'll just leave it at that, and you can have your last word.
 
#38 ·
The whole "it's the same 4140 steel" really doesn't amount to much. Since 4140, as a high tensile strength steel, can be treated to many different conditions, each having different total yield strength numbers and elongation numbers, the ansi number by itself cannot be the total judge of its suitability for a purpose.


I'm not sure why anyone wants a smokeless powder muzzleloader, as to me that seems to defeat the purpose of having a muzzleloader, but, to each his own.

Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
 
#42 ·
"smokeless screen" - Now your talking, I kinda like that thinking. It's actually kinda funny too. Proves me wrong in thinking you had no sense of humor.
 
#43 · (Edited)
#44 ·
You can knock Arrowhead off that list now. Luke does not do the conversions anymore.

However, you can add an excellent Hoosier to that list: Bestill Creations. But I don't think that Mr. Fisk has a website. He can be reached through Facebook.
 
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