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Building the 1:8 Scale RML 10 Inch 18 Ton Woolwich Gun

169K views 1K replies 35 participants last post by  spuddy 
#1 · (Edited)
Finally, Seacoast Artillery is building a projectile shooting cannon that you can have a lot of fun with target shooting and turn a few heads at the range with as well. We are very sure that this Victorian Era British Seacoast Gun will be a lot of fun to build and will be designed to be a good shooter too with a Gun Drilled Bore. It will be precisely machined from a 100 pound round of 1018 steel with a DOM Reinforce 5.50" outside diameter over the chamber and 8.5" long. The Total length will be 22.5", the 1.000" bore about 18" long. The Tube will weigh a little over 70 pounds and the carriage and mount about 20 more. We are building only 3 of these at first to find out exactly what it costs us to do so. These will be loaners for our shooting friends who live nearby. I am teaching my son to run the lathe so he can stand there for the hours necessary to turn these large steel rounds into cannon shapes. See some added info with the following pics.

Tracy&Mike


This is the photo we are modeling our efforts on. Courtesy of Wiki, it is the No.2. Gun in York Redoubt near Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. It is a 10 Inch 18 Ton RML (Rifled Muzzle Loader) Seacoast Gun, Serial No. 75, cast in 1870 at Woolwich, England. The weight of this large gun was 17-17-0-0. The first 17 represents Tons, the second 17, Hundred Weight, the first 0 is for quarters(25 pounds), the second 0, individual pounds. It has a Queen Victoria Cypher and is mounted on an Iron Traversing Carriage Mount. The English Ton is 2,240 U.S. and Canadian pounds, therefore the weight of this gun is computed thusly: (17 x 2,240 Lbs.) = 38,080 Lbs. + (17 x 112Lbs. = 1,904 Lbs.) = 39,984 Lbs. or close to 20 Tons, U.S./Canadian.



The original photo from WIKI that appeared when this thread was just started.

251681





The new pic.

251667






In Fort Jackson, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia 1887, members of the Long Course of Gunnery, Middle Head, moving a 10 Inch 18 Ton RML Gun Tube. Note the sights which are in view at the highest magnification. I searched for 3 weeks before I found this photo. From Wiki.




I found this drawing of the gun's mount and carriage in the Victorian Forts and Artillery website which was very helpful. Although it is only a two dimensional drawing, the details of the front and back can be gleaned from other photos of this cannon.




This dimensioned sketch was drawn by me, because I could not lift the original copy of the drawing from the site which displayed it; if I remember what the name was I will add that later. Whoa, silly me; it is written on my sketch/drawing.

 
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#764 ·
"With the centers drilled, the round is placed in the three jaw chuck on the left and the "live" center on the right. A fairly light cut is made initially to make sure that the center holes in the round's ends were drilled closely to the rounds rotational axis. If an error was made in locating the holes, Mike needs to know before a heavy cut is turned on the lathe, because an off-center rotational axis will try to shake the lathe apart at higher RPMs."




T&M,
When checking for the perfect rotational axis, what can be done if it is off a little? You already have the centers drilled and they can't be moved without cutting them off.
Zulu



 
#765 ·
Thanks M&T for sharing some about your friend Bruce. He will surely be missed.

Watched all the videos, pretty darn cool. Thanks. Having a backup / spare tube is a great idea.

What kind of oil do you use for the tooling? Looks like a small needle valve for flow? Gravity fed?

Edit: One more question if I may. To go from bad chips to good chips, what adjustments had to be made to feed rate and depth of cut?
 
#766 ·
Fredstaple, Thank you and you are correct in that it is the temperature of the chips that make them a vibrant blue color. Back on page 26 there is a blacksmith's heated steel color chart which has blue steel at 575 F. When we made the first trunnion reinforce piece it came out of Mike's oven a deep purple with lots of blue highlights. The color chart indicated 540 F. for deep purple, so we called it 560 F. as it was between 540 and 575 F.




Zulu, If the centers are off a little, say .010" to .050" there is no problem. By running the lathe slowly, so it does not jump around with the piece weight being on the different axis than the rotation axis, you can most likely get the whole piece to clean up with a depth of cut at .050". If the entire surface is not new, shiny metal, you must put the steady rest in place near the right end and face off 1/2"of metal and re-drill a new center over on the mill............carefully. We bet turning the second time around will go without a hitch. Extra metal on the dia. lets the .050" offset work.



Tracy and Mike
 
#767 ·
Hi, VA Rifleman, Mike here, about the oil we don't use any with carbide tooling, we just have an air nozzle pointed at the chip coming off the work to blow the chip down into the chip pan and also to cool everything. Oil or coolant is just to messy unless your lathe or mill is setup to contain the massive spray that is produced.

As far as feed rates go you must first set the RPM, this depends on the tooling, HSS about 100 SFM (use cutting oil) or Carbide about 300 SFM SFM (surface feet per minute) is calculated: Dia. in inches X Pie X RPM divided by 12. The depth of cut is determined by the weight, size, stability of your machine, you must figure that out, I have a 16 inch 5000 lbs lathe and I can take a .100 depth of cut with no problem. The feed rate is what produces a nice blue chip that looks like a 6 or 9, you don't want a long hot sharp wire or a 3 inch long spring, the wire can grab you and cut a finger off.

Both of these types are very bulky when bagging them for removal, you just have to play with the feed rate until you get a good finish and the right looking chip. With Carbide you need to take a deeper cut to get a good finish, usually. Check out Machinery's Handbook for details. For our specific work piece of 4.50" diameter, we use 185 RPM, .018" feed rate per RPM and .100" depth of cut. This gives an excellent finish, and small blue chips called 6s and 9s.

Thanks for a good question,


Mike
 
#768 ·
I worked as a draftsman in a machine shop 30 years ago. I was always impressed by the guys that were methodical, deliberate and wise. There seemed to always be a new young guy that would try and impress with his speed, he usually learned his lesson. A few times putting others at risk. I love these updates thanks Tracy and Mike!
 
#769 ·
Dang Tracy , YOU ARE BACK !
I havn't had the pleasure reading one of your " Replys " in a long time ! Packed to the gills with info .

I must mention my good friend Bruce who passed away early this year .
He was a good man , born a century late ... maybe ?

Bruce ,Tracy , and Mike and I knew of each other in the Colo. School of Trades ...Gun Smithing...... in 1976 .
This one day I heard of some guy had a black powder mortar and he wants to know if we'd like to help him shoot it ?

Wut wut ! Oh Hel* Yea !

This is a true story of how I met Tracy ! He told me after we packed and left ...weak minds and strong backs .
It was awsome !

But if you needed ANYTHING Bruce would grab whatever tool was needed and come right over .
He would give you the shirt off his back .

He was in the 82nd Airborne, he comanded a Sheridan Tank in the Viet Nam Era .
I will Truly miss Bruce .
 
#770 · (Edited)
Spuddy, I don't know about wise, but methodical and certainly deliberate, that's us! Mike and I are glad that you love the updates, Tim. We want to take this opportunity to show the members one of the photos that you and your wife took this summer at York Redoubt, Position No. 2 where our 10" 18 Ton RML Woolwich Gun resides. Thank you for all of those wonderful photos, but especially the front and aft ones which are missing from every historical or Nova Scotia Tour Guide online photo collections that we have found. We can show everyone just how easy it is to figure out dimensions of features that you are going to build.


This photo of the breech end of the gun is very useful. Using the tape measure image, you can see how the height of the Fish Belly I-Beam at the breech end of the carriage can be computed. Including the 2" body of the tape measure, you have 9.25" of height. The tape measure is sitting on the angle iron which holds the transom plate at its bottom with large, 1.25" dia. rivets, so the bottom of the tape measure is even with the top of the thinnest edge of the I-Beam. By scaling, we find that the I-Beam edge to be .750" thick. So, we add that figure to the 9.250" figure and get 10.00" for the height of the I-Beam and the partially hidden transom. So, we get a two-fer from this photo! Thank you and your lovely wife for each and every one of these photos. Most of them yield precious dimensions, and even those that don't are equally important by showing us how all these pieces fit together into one cohesive whole.









RocklockI, Hi Gary, the moment I saw you wandering around the School of Trades looking for a left handed, T-Handled, bolt wrench, I knew you would be perfect as a gun crew member for my 1797 U,S, Land Service Mortar. I saw you as a strong hauler of 350 pound ordnance. Remember that steep hill between the parking lot and the 400 Yard Rock Shooting Place? You are correct, shooting the ole 4" black powder mortar was lots of fun. Those concrete filled cardboard oil cans at the boulder was a hoot! I can see collectors of those oil cans today cringing at the thought of blowing that thin, colorful
cardboard off of the concrete projectile upon each discharge!!




Tracy and Mike




That's me aiming the beast at the big rock.







KA-BLAM!!! Fun, fun,fun. Gary, I know that you were with us, but I can't find you in a pic. That's Gustafson on the right, middle guy, who knows and I think that's me, about 100 pounds ago, behind the vent smoke.








His name was Bear until last Halloween when his people took him out in full costume, now its Chew-Bear-Ka!


 
#771 ·
THE END OF THE UPDATE IS HERE. THESE TWO PHOTOS ARE IT. PLEASE POST YOUR QUESTIONS ON ANY ITEM.


Mike & Tracy




We always use micrometers when measuring a lathe turned part like the "Core Tube". They are much more accurate than calipers.









As of this afternoon, all 9 Core Tubes are complete. The plan now is to make the reinforcing rings starting with the Trunnion holding rings which will be turned and drilled and bored and then heat shrunk to each of the Core Tubes in turn. Then all the plain reinforcing rings which fit on one cannon Tube will be shaped and heat shrunk onto that Tube until it is completely loaded up. Then the next Tube will receive all of its rings, etc.


 
#772 ·
I got wise to your scheme going up that trail from the parking lot to the shooting spot .

Being involved in that one day changed my shooting world !
Then I hauled that mortar and it's bits up to St. Marys Glacier .

We spent a day poking holes in the thick ice at St Marys Lake . I remember standing on a berm between two frozen lake .
BOOM ! Off she goes toward me , but well to the left . Over my head at an angle and down ..... and Pulush ! Right thru 6 inch ice !

Then there was Camp Hale !
 
#773 · (Edited)
Your post brings back memories, Gary. I recall that the shot which pierced the 6 inches of ice sent a plume of water and ice shards straight up, like a water lazer. My fondest memories were of the 10th Mountain Divison Training ground at 9,200 feet elevation. Thousands of mountain troops trained there near Leadville, CO in '42 and '43 for the invasion of Italy, including Bob Dole.


We liked that area because of close up camping areas, fresh water and the WWII Infantry Weapons Range with wrecks of cars and trucks dating back to the 1930s. We found 60mm mortar fins near the mountainside which was the range's backstop. you couldn't go anywhere without stepping on 30-06 brass with a '42 or '43 headstamp on it. All in all a very interesting place.


Mike and Tracy




In the middle ground of the Infantry Weapons Range at Camp Hale you can see a brown spot. That is what's left of a 1930s car with a half million 30 cal. holes in it.









We found this 55 Gal. drum on the range and put it to good use as a mortar target of sorts. We set up the 300# 4" Mortar next to it and put a 9.5 Lb. solid shot through it with a full pound of Fg BP. The shot went up at about 60 degrees and impacted the backstop mountain at 11,500 feet and about a half mile down range. Rock splinters and pulverized granite dust marked the spot.









Up thru the heavy rim it went! We shot Canister (120 75cal. lead balls in a 4" dia. oil can), Grape Shot (7 one pound lead ingots in a 4" oil can), the effect on bare-ground or targets was SCARY!!!, Maleable Steel Solid Shot and Shells on that particular weekend in 1977. The shells were the oil cans full of well dried concrete; they exploded when they struck anything solid like a truck frame or granite boulder!


 
#774 ·
 
#775 ·
I am thinking about starting a new thread on stabilized mortar projectiles for smooth bore mortars. As you can see from the video clip above that can of concrete is spinning nicely without any rifling in the tube nor expansion sabot on the projectile. Mike and I have made two serious attempts at doing this in the past, going through maybe six different methods. All failed except one and to be completely honest, it was a complete surprise to us when it worked. We mistakenly thought that that seventh configuration would work only with much higher velocities which would force a lot more air over the projectile in flight. I am looking for feedback indicating some interest in a thread for experiments having to do with stabilization without adding gyros or motors, etc.


Tracy
 
#777 · (Edited)
Thank you Little Seacoast for responding as you have. However Pete, I'm pretty sure you will agree with me that two people do not a quorum make. That's O.K., I'll probably do it later anyway, That would be in keeping with my contrarian nature to do that. Last night I had the time to review the photos from 2014 which was the year of our favorite "Tour of the South". After reviewing the pics of our visit with you, I confirmed our thoughts about that visit in that it was the highlight of our entire trip, including our visit to monstrously large Fort Jefferson 70 miles south west of Key West, FL.

Tracy and Mike



Pete and Mike







Pete and Tracy


 
#778 ·
Tracy from all my reading about the earliest " rifle type guns " , I believe there was an effort to enhance cleaning bores in Germany .
It consisted of grooves of a sort , just linear stirations to allow fouling to build up the groove .

Supposedly it was to remain shooting longer than a smooth bore .

Bada Bing badda boom a stabization was discovered . Cutting these stirations using crude equipment could and probably was responsable
for them being cut at abit cockeyed .

And you know the Germans they would have latched on to any new discovery .
The Jager Rifle was the eventual result
 
#781 ·
Double D. Yes, of course, just the type of things that Parrott, Brooke, Dahlgren and others were experimenting with back in the 1850s and 1860s.


I am completely underwhelmed by the lack of interest here on GBO Mortar and Cannon, so why should I bother. I can do lots of other things to amuse myself.


Tracy
 
#782 ·
I just got on here and read this, so yes, count me in as an interested party. I am always looking for more info on projectile stabilization. My last outing with an 1859 French rifled Howitzer, the projos were spin drifting about 150 feet to the left of the target at 600 yds. I haven't figured that one out yet.
 
#785 · (Edited)
Last one first this time, Carbineone 1964, looks like 6 people is interest enough for a new thread called, "Experiments in Stabilization of Pre-1898 Projectiles in Smooth Bores". This thread also encompasses smooth bore cannon as well as mortars. All thoughts on the subject are solicited and please limit your musings on the subject to methods available prior to the cut off date mentioned in the thread title. Thank you. The lack off photos I am experiencing too. Probably a Fototime Hosting issue. Every three years they have one of those which is fixed rapidly.


I also thank Little Seacoast, RocklockI, Double D., Dominick and Boomerralph for their interest in this subject. While my work day presently is spent advancing the build of the 10" 18 Ton Gun 100%, I can offer several evening hours per week to the Stabilization thread. As soon as I find the photo, I will show you guys what we think caused the mortar projectile in the short video clip that I posted to spin.


Tracy and Mike
 
#786 · (Edited)
Tracy, you are telling me only 6 people viewed your post in 24 hrs or are saying only 6 people replied. I just checked your new thread about this, I see only 3 replies and 58 views and I haven't even viewed it myself yet.

Don't worry about replies, watch the views. Why say something if you don't have anything to say? That is 58 people who have pulled up chair and are listening.
 
#788 ·
I am thinking about starting a new thread on stabilized mortar projectiles for smooth bore mortars.


Just saw this; needless to say. I am interested.
 
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