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1911 accuracy

13K views 54 replies 19 participants last post by  Suspect At Large 
#1 ·
How important is 1911 .45acp accuracy to you? Do you have a minimum group size that is acceptable? The production 1911 won't shoot such tight groups unless you happen to get a very abnormal one. I mean I've had very tight shooting 1911s, but they came with problems, such as feeding reliable only certain ammo. In my experience, the most accurate of the bunch has some kind of problem. Who makes one that is utterly reliable and amazingly accurate?
 
#2 ·
My opinion, keys to good 1911 accuracy are a proper link / locking lug fit. and a well fitted barrel bushing, along with a quality barrel. An over tight slide plays second fiddle, along with contributing to possible reliability issues.

Accuracy? My most accurate 1911's are a Colt series 70 Gold Cup, and a stainless steel series 80 Gold Cup. Both will do a little less than an inch and a half at 25 yards, from a solid bench rest. My Kimber Custom Target is a 1 inch gun with loads it likes from the same distance.

Most 1911's are "combat" accurate, meaning 2 or 3 inches at 25 yards. My Colts have been 99% reliable, the Kimber 99.9%, with thousands of rounds thru each.

Larry
 
#3 ·
Miss Lilly: it isn't so much the accuracy of any particular 1911 pistol, regardless of caliber, as it is the ability of the pistol you are shooting to allow you to group within 6" at 50 yds., which is the size of the average head and which is my preference for accuracy in my carry pistols. If, whatever you are shooting allows you to hit a 6" target at that distance you are in pretty good shape.


Bigeasy included a 'well fit barrel-bushing', to which I wholeheartedly agree. Two of my different 1911s, over time, refused to shoot decent groups at even 25 yds until I replaced the barrel bushing with one that allowed only .002 clearance, and that is when my groups shrank to about 2-2.5" at 25 yds and about double that at 50 yds but yet allowed the pistol to continue to function without hang-up.


I will agree with you that tightly set-up match or competition pieces often come with their own problems and reliability with certain types of ammo may be problematic, which is why they tend to favor only one or two bullet nose profiles.


However, if I may opine and share some field combat experiences I can provide that I firmly believe the very notion of some sort of expanding or deforming bullet for the 45 acp is a waste of money. I know that in the 45 acp the mil-spec ball is very effective when placed properly, as should be any bullet. My only deviation from plain mil-spec ball in the 45 acp is either a Mag-Tec 230 gn fmj-swc or the old Lyman #452423, a 238 gn cast swc designed for the 45 Auto Rim cartridge over a factory powder charge.


As a general rule I would expect expanding 45 acp ammo not to expand a whole lot as it doesn't really move fast enough to expand greatly and I would almost expect a soft nosed slug to deform and possibly not enter a vital area, which is why I won't spend or waste any $ on the stuff.


Hope this helps.
 
#4 ·
When you talk about accuracy, I think you're also talking about consistent accuracy measured by 10 shot groups fired at a range of 50 yards. There's not many 1911's that can group under 1 inch using that criteria and I would have to hazard a guess that most are possessed by our top military service shooting team members.

There are some full custom 1911's that on occasion can accomplish an inch or a tad under but they are as rare as hen's teeth, as well, and the price is very high for about everyone except those with a real need for that accuracy or the well healed person, who just wants a very accurate 1911 and is willing to pay the freight.

Now, there is a company out there that is producing some 1911's that shoot 10-shot consistent groups at 100 yards under 2 inches and that company is Accuracy X Inc. I think their pistols probably start at the $4K mark and go from there. I watched one of their videos and they shot a 10-shot group at 100 yards that measured 1.8 inches. I don't know how many they can produce in a years time but they are turning out a truly fine, accurate, reliable 1911. There is currently no living human that can take full advantage of that pistol but a ransom rest can prove their accuracy claims. ;)

Now I have 2 Baer semi-custom pistols, the PII models, both with the 1.5 inch option. One has a milled slide with a red dot and a tuned trigger to 2.25 pounds, while the other wears iron sights and 3# trigger with the front post narrowed and the rear sight opened a hair. Both are great shooters but I can shoot the red dot much better both off-hand and over a rest. I'm no longer capable of shooting even close to the pistols capabilities at 50 yards over a rest but I can "usually" keep 5 rounds within 3 inches at 50 yards rested with either one. 25 yards rested makes some impressive bragging groups with my reloads, as my reloads can shoot better than the Federal Match 185 grain, which is just a quirk with both of my pistols, as that Federal load is the Gold Standard.

If you want to pay the freight, you can own very accurate 1911's that you can conceal carry, carry on the battlefield or tote to the range with absolute confidence that it will go bang every time, when called upon to do so. Production 1911's that can shoot 2 inch groups at 25 yards are pretty much top of the line and at 50 yards they can usually do 6 inches from a good rest - that's providing the shooter is up to the task. There's a lot of 1911's on the market that shoot well for the average handgun shooter but most aren't shooting at or under 2 inches at 25 yards.

Mikey was posting as I was typing - Mikey, I agree that Ball ammo in the 1911 will do whatever needs done, but there are some mighty fine jacket hollow points currently on the market - they are the bonded type and for a self-defense round, they give a slight advantage, as they both expand and penetrate - I'm talking JHP such as the 230 grain Gold Dot. I don't carry the commercial version, as I reload the 230 Gold Dot to 950 fps and I'm very happy with that particular loading.
 
#6 ·
I've probably built around 140 or more 1911 pistols for various law enforcement officers over the years, and accuracy doesn't have to vary that much, and still have a reliable pistol.
The older Series 70 pistols weren't throated, and although "some" would feed various hollow points, they were primarily set up to feed ball ammo. This was a popular, and simple modification.
If a quality barrel is properly fitted to the slide, an appropriate length on the barrel link, and a snug barrel bushing, you have a, start on the accuracy issue. But then one has to look at a properly fitted extractor, and slide spring for consistent lockup. A spring guide kit is the mythical answer to this consistency, but it IS a myth. The added muzzle weight caused by the spring guide helps the shooter, but not the lockup. Plus a myriad of other small unobvious tricks to improve reliability just in the slide.
Once one gets these issues addressed, then slide to frame fit, is not only an accuracy issue, but also a reliability issue.
Where the magazine release holds the magazine in position, how the thumb safety is cut, does the mainspring tension mesh well with the slide spring weight, over travel on trigger, sear angle on hammer, matching trigger sear angle. A good trigger represents roughly 30% of pistols fired outside a mechanical rest.
My point is; most properly fitted 1911s will shoot closer than their owners are capable of, and it is not necessary to sacrifice accuracy for reliability.
Even the width of the magazine lips and where it releases the chambering round are a reliability factor.
When I finished a pistol, one could load empty brass in an every other round order, and my pistols would chamber the unloaded brass after firing the loaded round in front of it. They were reliable, AND accurate.
Nowadays you can buy these qualities over the counter in a 1911, if you know what to look for, and aren't a cheapskate.
However, I will also say, their are far less finicky pistol designs out there today, that are not only cheaper, but have a higher propensity towards reliability, while still providing good accuracy.

In regards to ball ammo in the 45, it WILL NOT reliably penetrate things like auto windshields, and other simular materials, where a "flat point" design will, and performs much better when contacting such material as BONE.
 
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#7 ·
Though not experienced as you fellows, I like my 1911 accurate. From a rest, my gun will hit a gallon paint can at 50 yards, good enough for me but as not as accurate as many guns you folks have named. However, one point made here by some worries me a little. A friend and myself used to enjoy unscientific testing of various guns and bullets. We mostly used the 4 layers of denim over water jugs. (never could understand why all the gun writers thought we need to base bullet quality by shooting denim. I understand hollow point clogging in all that, but why 4 layers of denim became the norm is an odd thing to me). Anyway, I found the premium ammo .45acp jhp's would always penetrate at least 13 inches and expand to .75. Is that not better than flat point solids? I think because the 1911 was initially made to fire ball, and the fact the ball is already of large diameter, and that hollow points wouldn't feed well in early guns, they feel hollow points and 1911s just don't go together.

All that said, I carry the solid flat points made my DoubleTap. I suppose I too cling to the old notions. Not sure if that is better than 9mm hp's which penetrate as deep and expands to bigger than .45. I'm certainly not advocating 9mm instead of .45--because the .45 is heavy and awesome in it's ability to stop fights or pit pulls. It's my belief the only thing more capable is a .357M, which has too much blast for me, too much time required to get over the recoil for another shot.
 
#8 ·
I'm of the opinion that in close quarters, most any 45ACP ammunition fired from a 1911 will prove effective. There's always the odd occurrence that will prove that thought wrong, but then I figure it's just not your day and I don't care what you use - it won't perform as intended. ;)

I'm not talking about home invaders wearing Kevlar vests or ceramic breast plates.

Years back some hollow points did clog on t-shirt material and never expanded - did the t-shirt cloth cause the problem or just the hollow point design? I don't think it altered the outcome for the individual on the receiving end. The greater expansion helps in damaging vital tissues if the ball round would have just missed those tissues due to a difference in diameter.

Now, some hollow points use to shred there copper pedestals when striking bone, while others just folded straight back - either way, penetration was usually effected. Today, they have overcome this problem to a large degree. Currently, the best on the market are the bonded jacketed hollow points, as they don't lose any weight upon impact and penetration is very good - plus, they seem to work fairly well through glass and other objects, which I guess is a bonus.

The 230 grain bonded gold dot is one hard hitting round, as I hit a coyote at 30 yards with that Gold Dot square in the front shoulder, broadside - bullet went through both shoulders and he dropped like a ton of bricks. Same result no doubt with ball ammunition or anything else for that matter, but the exit wound was impressive.
 
#51 ·
Owning a full size Ruger 1911, I like and agree with this post. DP
 
#11 ·
Every rack grade 1911 of reputable manufacture comes with a $600 option. You can send it along to Dave Salyer or any one of the many other Bullseye smiths and for that price get an utterly reliable 1911 that shoots two inch ten shot groups at fifty yards. I don't have a clue what they do but it is possible to get accuracy and reliability, at least with lead SWC fired at 750-800 f/s. Actually I've never tried them but Clark still guarantees 2 1/2 inches for $400. I use Salyer because he's half an hour from me.
 
#12 ·
spirithawk, that's might fine shooting. However, wouldn't you love to have a 1911 that would do that at 45 yards instead of 45 feet. 45 feet is only 15 yards. I'd say you are very well armed for work within that distance, but not much farther. So, I'll say it again. The chances of needing to kill someone is almost zero, and we can reduce that chance to even less of needing to kill someone beyond 15 yards. Ain't going to happen very often at all for a civilian. Sounds like I've contradicted myself; just trying to say I like 1911's so much, I want the best accuracy I can get whether I need it or not. Also, I want the ballistic advantage of a 5" barrel and an all steel gun for even more ballistic advantage shooting +P, which increased velocity in a 5" gun by about 100fps which is significant. Just me though
 
#14 ·
For me and my 1911's, if I intend to carry it for protection or hunting, accuracy is 1" at 25 yds from bags or it stays home. Most likely, if the gun comes up in either scenario, I need it to be as accurate as possible because I'm not a one hole offhand shooter. Normally, if a gun shoots more than 1.5" at 25 yds from bags and that's as good as I can get it, it goes to the gunshow and I don't come home with it. While not a 1911, I have a SW 5906 pristine 9mm that'll be going to the next gunshow. I have others that are far better shooters in 9mm including the Colt Special Combat 38 Super.
 
#16 ·
Now, there is a company out there that is producing some 1911's that shoot 10-shot consistent groups at 100 yards under 2 inches and that company is Accuracy X Inc. I think their pistols probably start at the $4K mark and go from there.

Reality.....they may have a video that does what you say. Their guarantee, however, is 1.5" at 25 yards for their Pro series guns. For their Pro+ series, they refer to 10Xs at 50 yards.....difficult to do and so rarely if ever done standing one hand unsupported.....the X-ring at 50 yards is 1.6" wide. (FYI....the national record for slow fire with a 45 at 50 yards was set in 1982 and remains unbroken/unmatched. It is for 20 shots and was set by B.D. Harmon. The record is 200-11X.)
I have seen 10X targets but they have all been at indoor distances.
Pete
 
#17 ·
I used to shoot aluminum pie plates at 100 yards off the bench, with a stock Series 70 and ball ammunition. It was an "impressive to some" parlor trick, but the accuracy at that range from a 45acp isn't really useful.
 
#19 ·
Oh boy accuracy, dependability, and a 1911 in the same post. It can be done the problem I found out is in the barrel bushing fit. It's not the cost of the parts too. My norinco shoots clusters and cloverleafs off hand at 25 yards using wolf ammo. I installed and fitted a new surplus USGI barrel, IAI National match barrel bushing, a FLGR with a 18# recoil spring. I use IAI full wrap around rubber grips. I tuned the extractor, machined in the disconnector ramp, polished the feed ramp. I didn't touch the standard frame rail to slide fit yet.
The barrel bushing fit is very important. It needs to hinge down to load a round, then go up into full battery with no barrel spring at the limit in both directions. That's the key to accuracy is to have no barrel spring yet have 100% lockup in full battery. Reliability and dependability will be there if the extractor is tuned correctly. You flare/chamfer the bottom of the extractor so the lip of the case goes into the extractor easily. I lube the 1911 with moly and off she goes.


Practice, practice and more practice is the key to accuracy. The average 1911 accuracy was designed to hit a human sized body. But the more accurate it is the better.


I noticed my recoil is way less with the FLGR. There is less cycle timing with the 18# recoil spring. The recoil is straight up under 2". Now if you run a empty slide on the frame you can feel the bump from the disconnector. Putting a ramp in for the disconnector eliminates this bump the slide runs smooth as it engages the slide.


The grips are very important too. You need to be comfortable when you hold the 1911.
 
#20 ·
The barrel bushing fit is very important. It needs to hinge down to load a round, then go up into full battery with no barrel spring at the limit in both directions.

Are you referring to the function of the bushing or to the function of the barrel link and link pin?
 
#22 ·
Fitting the new mm barrel bushing to the barrel and slide. I fit the barrel bushing to the slide so there is about 1/8" turn to full lockup with the bushing in the slide. It's not too tight yet snug. I use the bushing wrench.


:) Barrel Spring,
This is when the barrel is in full battery or lowered to accept the next round you push the barrel into full battery and it springs back out of full battery. The barrel bushing isn't fitted properly.

The barrel must have 100% lockup in full battery yet have no barrel spring in either direction. In full battery you shouldn't be able to push down on the barrel. If you can push down on the barrel your not getting the full lug ingagement. You need a longer link. The lug ingagement must be checked.


I discussed this with Mikey about what to do to improve the accuracy. Mikey said that the 1911's accuracy is in the barrel to bushing fit. I was going to do the frame rail to slide fit. He was right the barrel to bushing fit is the accuracy on the 1911.


Lilly, if I were you I would try a FLGR. Use the same recoil spring your using now and try it. I perfer the two piece full length guide rod. It changes the handling of the recoil on the 1911. You will see the difference.
 
#24 ·
I disagree in one point 1911 crazy made, and I'm sue he meant to say it differently. Accuracy in a 1911 does not depend on practice, practice, practice. We can practice 16 hours per day for years and not do anything for the accuracy of whatever gun you are shooting. I'm referring to the inherent accuracy built into a 1911, not the practiced or unpracticed shooter. Ain't I a trouble maker?
 
#25 ·
If I gotta shoot 25 yards or more freehand with a pistol, I prefer a 6" 357.
I think someone makes a fixed barrel 1911 which might be the way to go for extreme accuracy.
 
#26 ·
1911crazy: While I agree about the importance of a fitted barrel bushing, I believe that you underemphasize the importance of the barrel link/link pin and their fitting to the underlug.
A 1911 barrel is supported at two points....at the muzzle by the bushing and at the breech by the action of the barrel link. As you noted, if the barrel spring needs correcting, that is done at the link end.
Pete
 
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