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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)



The original of these have fascinated me since I first read of them 55 years ago.
If I had the money for a Vette , one of the kit car/now officially Chev. sanctioned GS repros . would be high n my list.
 

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67 427 tri power vette is the holy grail to me. But to be realistic that car in the article wasn't a 427 it was a modern fuel injected twin turbo motor. Using todays hp ratings the 435 hp 427 is about a 350 hp (at max) motor. Capable of running mid 12s (with modern tires) A box stock modern standard (not even zo6) corvette would have it for lunch in any performance category. Put up against a z06 or even more so a zr1 it would look like a 6cyl ford falcon in 67 trying to outrun that 67 vette. But no car is anymore sexy then a big block 67 vette!!! Now if I had the almost 200k there getting for one. I could buy two new vettes a new pickup and have enough left over for a couple side by sides and a boat.
 

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I love the classic Vettes and that sixty seven is awesome. The 1960’s were great years for GM design, maybe up to around 1972? I sure wish EPA standards didn’t dictate such strict economy of design. I miss the days of cars being built simply because they looked good that way.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
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I guess that when the corvette tried and beat those super cars, they missed out on trying this one!
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/tesla/model-s/performance
That kind of performance..equivalent fuel mileage 100+ MPG...and AWD to boot !
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If you are use the supposed mileage than you had better have TIME on your hands to kill, as you are going nowhere to a goodly bit of time.
Nothing can put out instant power like an electric motor, which is why railroads have used them for almost a century.
But in the real world of automobiles, outside of a big city, they are only for people with money burning a hole in their pocket as they are like trading a supposed gas guzzler for an econo-box that does half as much , half as well, and discovering you will be lucky to break even on supposed gas savings in twenty years.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
67 427 tri power vette is the holy grail to me. But to be realistic that car in the article wasn't a 427 it was a modern fuel injected twin turbo motor. Using todays hp ratings the 435 hp 427 is about a 350 hp (at max) motor. Capable of running mid 12s (with modern tires) A box stock modern standard (not even zo6) corvette would have it for lunch in any performance category. Put up against a z06 or even more so a zr1 it would look like a 6cyl ford falcon in 67 trying to outrun that 67 vette. But no car is anymore sexy then a big block 67 vette!!! Now if I had the almost 200k there getting for one. I could buy two new vettes a new pickup and have enough left over for a couple side by sides and a boat.
Big block Vettes, were in the twelves way back in the day on the tires available them.
A straight up comparison is impossible as the same engine in a 66-67 Corvette was already under rated for insurance sake and if one did a simple blue print rebuild using modern knowledge it would gain 100 hp with any effort.

One magazine did a rebuild of a original Boss 302 engine to as close a humanly possible identical to engines Ford ran in 1970 race cars.
Back then then they were never above 480 HP, the engine built for the article dynoed at 525HP.
The Hemming's pure stock drag races indicate to a real degree the capabilities of cars sixty plus years old, many run in the twelves, or better, on tires no wider than from the years they were built.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/article/pure-stock-drags-2015/
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/article/pure-stock-time-machines/
https://www.hemmings.com/blog/article/pure-stock-drags-2013/

The problem some of these boys have is they cannot run quicker than 11.50 and some break into the 10s, while other simply break their qualifying time.
Now put these cars on tires the size of today's factory hot rods and they would be just as quick.

Changing nothing, things are just better today.
Tires and suspension set-ups, including live axle, have improved to a degree people don't appreciate.
 

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no doubt at all that a 427 using modern cam shaft technology and ignition technology could make big power even with a carburator. But do a cam swap, pully change and a tune on a hellcat and your looking at a 1000 hp AND STILL STREETABLE. Same with a zr1 vette. I wont argue that you couldt get a 427 into the 11s. But to do it in a package that's docil enough for your wife or grandma to drive to church with the ac on and get 25 mpg going there is what separates today from yesterday. I had an ls6 chevele. It was as you know one of the most famous of the muscle cars. It was cantankerous. It need valves adjusted about everytime you changed the oil. You changed your plugs every time you changed you oil. Didn't have enough vaccum to run ac. A mini van today would outhandle it. But it was cool and I wish I had it back. I just don't pretend it could compete with todays muscle cars. Line it up against a z1camaro or a **** cat. heck line it up against an ss camaro or coyotee mustang with an auto tranny and my wife would out run me in my old ls6 in the quarter with a 500 watt stereo blaring and the ac freezing here out of the car. when she was done she could run to dairy queen while I was setting the lash on my valves and putting a new set of points in it.


LOTS of cool old cars. I love them as much as then next guy. Like you they were the cars I grew up with. But in all honesty TODAY is the golden age of muscle cars. 700 plus hp cars that get 20 mpg and can be daily driven. That's about like daily driving a pro stock from the 60s and who wants to row a lenco on the street. It took a real well set up street car to run low 12s back then. Today low 11s is at your dealership and 10s are even there if you want to open your check book and if you want to play by adding stuff we did back then like headers, bigger injectors (think bigger carb) manifolds and tuning you can get deep in the 10s and still be go to church docile to drive. to me its amazing. When I look at quarter mile times of the cars I though were bad $$$ back then like gtos mach 1s ss camaros and see that there not a whole lot different then what you can do in a f150 or Silverado or ram today. Heck a Toyota corolla would scare the crap out of a 389 gto. Yup there was rare ones that dipped into the 12s and even low 12s but for the most part 15s were quick back then and a car that could turn honest low 13s on the street was feared. At least around here.
 

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If you are use the supposed mileage than you had better have TIME on your hands to kill, as you are going nowhere to a goodly bit of time.
Nothing can put out instant power like an electric motor, which is why railroads have used them for almost a century.
But in the real world of automobiles, outside of a big city, they are only for people with money burning a hole in their pocket as they are like trading a supposed gas guzzler for an econo-box that does half as much , half as well, and discovering you will be lucky to break even on supposed gas savings in twenty years.
You are correct Bob, charge time can delay a trip, but not necessarily by much. My daughter-in-law's sister & Husband have 3-4 vehicles, one of which is a Tesla. They live near Portland, OR and often visit family in LA.

Even though they have other vehicles, they normally take the Tesla on visits to LA. They start on a full charge,tootp about half way for a meal..where they can recharge, takes about 45 minutes, and then finish their trip.

Electric is not quite ready for rural use (IMO), but that will be adjusted, as better technologies including batteries, comes along.

For the present, most families have 2 or more vehicles, so one gas and one electric, becomes more feasible.

As you said, diesel~electric train engines actually drive on electric motors..especially because of their huge torque factor in electric motors.

Oh; and BTW; ...When the folks drive from Portland to LA..there is no refueling cost, since electric cars somehow, include free recharges.

.

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67 427 tri power vette is the holy grail to me. . . . .
one of the few i've driven was a 427 3X2 4 speed (what were they back then ? muncie ?)
but it was a stingray (1969?)
yeller with a ragtop
one of the others was one of the 1980's "wedge" vettes.
drove it back from the far side of Fort Worth to the far east
side of Dallas county.
the absolute worst driving worst riding POS i ever
sat in. 350 CID i think. a mechanics creeper at 70-80 mph
or a kid's tricycle would have given a better ride. the old stingray was like
sitting in a recliner at home. it was a real car with
a real drivetrain.

another aside for the day:
i've been around and worked with cars all my life, and these yo-yo's
these days that rant about how much bleeping horsepower their s*itbox
makes and so on have never truly been in a real car, say a 4000 pound
chevelle ss that could pull the front end off the ground a foot or more.
or in a big block el camino that you couldn't lean forward during acceleration
because the g force was pushing you back in the seat so hard you couldn't
move.
i had to tell a kid one time that his pos mustang didn't make any
500 horsepower any more than my momma's blender did because that
much juice would snap the axles and driveshaft like so many stale pretzels,
and just where did he get that h.p. info ?
why. . .off the so-and-so website of course.
well kid i says, if you'll take it out to Arlington to a little shop called Reher Morrison,
they have a thing called a dynamometer that will tell you exactly what horsepower
you are putting out, if it's reads that low that is.
most folks have never been sitting in a vehicle with 400 + horsepower, (or 300) so they
don't realize how much that really is and what it will do.
too many kids are raised by the d*mned internet these days.
 

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I agree with this. Hot rod did a dyno test on a mighty ls6 Chevelle like the one I had and got 375hp to the wheels. A new hellcat (not even a redeye will do that with the valet key on.
most folks have never been sitting in a vehicle with 400 + horsepower, (or 300) so they
but if you think you cant get a car that puts 500 hp down on a wheel dyno your out of touch. Every manufacture makes them. If you think a stock ss Chevelle would pull the wheels off the ground 2 feet then you must have had a better one then I had. Ive never in my years of muscle cars and street racing ever seen wheels leave the ground. It would take major power and a set of slicks to do it. Dodge advertises the **** cat redeye as the first production car that could do it and its got 700 rear wheel dyno proven hp and wrinkle wall radial drag tires. Old men with fading memories about there blistering fast muscle cars that a pickup today can run with. Guys who never even sat is something like a zL1 camaro, zr1 vette, z06 vette, **** cat or new boss mustang. Heck you don't even have to go that far. Sit in a ss camaro, srt challenger, or a mustang gt and your sitting in more car then all but maybe the top 5 muscle cars back then. Oh there were some fast ones. The zr1 aluminum 427 vette, the hemi race cars that had panels dipped in acid one seat and plexiglass windshields. The little ford falcons with 429s shoehorned in them. But those cars were sitting on your dealerships lot and they sure as heck weren't street cars they were race cars. As to dyno numbers every year at the state fair we have a dyno shootout and cars have to pass inspection and be street legal cars. Mostly vettes mustangs, camaros and modern mopar. For the last 5 years its took over a 1000 wheel hp to win that competition. Ive seen diesel pickups put down over 500 hp so your smoking crack if you think they compare to your mamas blender.
one of the few i've driven was a 427 3X2 4 speed (what were they back then ? muncie ?)
but it was a stingray (1969?)
yeller with a ragtop
one of the others was one of the 1980's "wedge" vettes.
drove it back from the far side of Fort Worth to the far east
side of Dallas county.
the absolute worst driving worst riding POS i ever
sat in. 350 CID i think. a mechanics creeper at 70-80 mph
or a kid's tricycle would have given a better ride. the old stingray was like
sitting in a recliner at home. it was a real car with
a real drivetrain.

another aside for the day:
i've been around and worked with cars all my life, and these yo-yo's
these days that rant about how much bleeping horsepower their s*itbox
makes and so on have never truly been in a real car, say a 4000 pound
chevelle ss that could pull the front end off the ground a foot or more.
or in a big block el camino that you couldn't lean forward during acceleration
because the g force was pushing you back in the seat so hard you couldn't
move.
i had to tell a kid one time that his pos mustang didn't make any
500 horsepower any more than my momma's blender did because that
much juice would snap the axles and driveshaft like so many stale pretzels,
and just where did he get that h.p. info ?
why. . .off the so-and-so website of course.
well kid i says, if you'll take it out to Arlington to a little shop called Reher Morrison,
they have a thing called a dynamometer that will tell you exactly what horsepower
you are putting out, if it's reads that low that is.
most folks have never been sitting in a vehicle with 400 + horsepower, (or 300) so they
don't realize how much that really is and what it will do.
too many kids are raised by the d*mned internet these days.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Lloyd the gas mileage comes from the injection system.
The fact the factory computer systems are designed so any one who is not a computer programming expert can not alter them is the WORST thing about any new car.
A minor thing such as windshield wiper switches, or high-low light controls goes bad and you are spending five hundred dollars for what used to be a thirty dollar item, eighty installed by a dealer mechanic.

There are enough stand-alone non factory systems available nowadays that you can put one on 90 percent of the old cars for a still HP engines that is better adjusted to things such as altitude, and general traffic.
One of the engine builders has a book, I think he now writes for Hot Rod, that tells you how to tune your HP engine for simple better all around performance without losing any out put.
He wrote in the introduction there was no reason, other than saving pennies for the factory , that ANY HP car, and he said that includes the Ferraris and Lambo. for those cars to get as poor of gas mileage as they do.
The book was dedicated to improving that factor.
Anew issue of Hot Rod, or it could be the new issue of Hemming's equivalent of Hot Rod, ( they are starting to sound too much alike) has an article on the power tour cars, these are all out race cars that have to drive , and pull the trailers with their stuff, from race track to race track.
How they made them street legal is more interesting that the race results.

It is interesting reading with driver saying between , noise and heat it takes a lot out of you but one of the top cars still got 12 mpg pulling a trailer.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I think that the new Hemi engines are using cylinder dropping technology to boost efficiency.
Absolutely, that is one major way they increase fuel mileage.
As are over-drive transmissions, which , even though they were around seventy plus years ago, faded away, and the few companies that made High Performance over-drive, Hone-O-Drive , were more treated as oddities some people used, than a good way to get better mileage out of a HP engine, which they actually were.

Transmissions, while they became stronger , during the hot rod years, actually became less sophisticated, and efficient, for penny pinching reasons.
 

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Don't know why everyone is so against efficentcy and performance gains technology brought us. Sure they cost more to fix. But think about this. I bought new chev short box pickup in 79. It was a stripper. Only options an am radio and a 350. Stick shift, rubber floor mats and not even a back bumper. I paid 7k for it. I made 6 bucks an hour as an lineman at the time. Flash forward to the last truck I bought while I worked. A 2007 chev. It was a club cab with power everything auto air even power seats. It cost 28 k. At that time I made 27 bucks an hour. So basically factoring in cost of living and wage increases the 07 cost the same as the stripper did in 79. It got 12 mpg with a good tail wind and was lucky if it made a 100k and surely wouldn't get there without rust holes. The O7 got 20mpg and my buddy is still driving it with 190k on it. The 79 had a 195 hp the 07 325. Acceleration. The 07 would do 0-60 in 8 seconds or less. The 79 probably took twice that time. The o7 was got almost twice the fuel economy would tow and haul more, had much better brakes. Was safer do to that and air bags and crash tested bumpers, was lightyears more comfortable to drive down the road. the 79 would wear you out in 200 miles. The 07 was as smooth and easy to drive as an impala.


Reliability??? Again ill go back to the fact that anyone here my age knows back in the 60s or 70s at about 60k you were getting nervous and at a 100 k you might as well drive it to the junk yard because nobody wanted it. At least no dealer. Today, like I said you pay about the same and a 100k later can get half your money back. Today if you DONT get a 150k out of a new vehicle you feel you got a lemon. Muscle cars aren't a bit different. Sure I can get 25mpg out of a gto. Its easy. Just pull that dinasour of a motor out and slap in an ls2. probably double the hp in a days work while your at it. I keep hearing if you do this or do that the old motors are as efficient. Yup and if you slap a jet engine on a dc3 it would be more efficient too. But don't they already make cars ready to go with complete drivetrains that will handle that power and actual paint that doesn't peal off or rust in 2 years???. Cars you can buy right off the lot. Cars that you can even get a loan for and can spend Saturday driving instead of wrenching.


I think back and chuckle. Today I think about all the times I enjoyed myself wrenching on broke cars or to get a few more hp out of them. Truthfully back then I sure didn't enjoy it. It was just something you had to do. Back then just like today id rather be driving them. Oh to have a time machine. I could have taken an off the lot hellcat back in time without even a mechanic and made a real good living street racing. Heck I could have slapped a roll bar in it and made money prostock racing. Yup those were the golden years. That is if you want bandaids and grease on your hands and don't get anymore then a 100 miles away from a gas station and it better be a Sunoco station because if I could get there race gas I had to back my timing off or id beat my bearings to death. I could sweat my *** off because I couldn't have power and air conditioning.


Don't even get me started in what happened if you came up on an actual corner going 70mph. Or didn't have stock in champion so that you could get free plugs and points. Or forgot that you had to rebuild your carb every year. Adjust your valves every couple thousand miles. Had to ride on tires that were harder then a rock. Ever even watch a GOOD mechanic tune a dual 4 barrel or tri power set up??? If you think you did that in your back yard with a chilton manual ive got this bridge. All those disadvantages to still end up with something a zl1 or hellcat would eat for lunch.


Yup those were the good old days alright. Only thing good about them was I still had enough years left to see what cars like that became today. My guess is in another 50 years we will really have reason to lament the good old days. Because Z06s and gt 500s will be replaced by electric cars or nuke cars that are as cookie cutter as a hybrid Toyota prius or a Nissan leaf. God I wish I was about 22 years old again with the same job I had and could buy one of these unbelievable machines that are made today. Heck the house is almost paid off and I just might anyway.


Its very sad. I was young when the first muscle cars were made. Had a few of them but had to buy them used. Most of my life all we had was lame cars. Until in 87 I bought my grand national. Finally a car that ran with the old muscle cars. If you would have asked me then id would have told you that NOTHING would come up any faster. Well today a corolla would give that gn a good run and we have hp wars like NOTHING from the 60s and 70s. We have 10 and 11 second street cars right on the dealers lots!!! Comical thing is theres actually people that want to pick them apart or slam them. Maybe we can go back to 195 hp trucks and 175 hp camaros. Or big block 396s with solid lifter cams and holley carbs that put less hp down on a dyno then a v6 ford pickup truck. Yup those were the good old days. At least in the photo albums
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
As I have written before my cousin bought the latest family type cars for decades now.
One needed an entirely new engine, out of warranty; the other needed new pistons 3,000 miles before the warranty ran out.

I drove my father 1971 Chevy with well over 100, 000 miles to the West Coast and back. Only problems, a high-po drive shaft I had put in, in 1974 needed new U-joints, now that cost me a lot more than a stock drive-shaft just for the U-joints, and the master cylinder needed replacing when I got home.

Earlier cars had lemons and those that were far better than the norm; the same can be said of the new digital cars.
Engines do not need to be pampered now as much as old ones but better oil, seal, and knowledge from the past is a great part of that.


As far as rust, my one friend drive full size Chevy utes, and ALL have rusted as bad as his last car from the early eighties did.
My sig. drives a 2004 Crown Vic. and it now has brand new front fenders and rocker panels on both sides; the very annoying twilight zone part there is the rocker on the right side, from Ford, cost 400 dollars more just for the metal.
 

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bob you must have never owned a 70s ford or chev pickup. My 79 had the front driver side fender replaced under warrantee (12000 mile one year warrantee) because it had a rust HOLE in it. Paint technology has come as far as electronics and fuel injection has. Sure they rust up here. So do the aluminum fords. Salt is not your friend but there HANDS down better then they were 20 or 30 years ago. Same with motors and you know it as well as me. Sure you might have gotten lucky and got a 100000 mile chev small block or ford straight six. Heck you might even have gotten a 120k. Today if you don't get a 150k out of a motor somethings wrong. Can you get a bad one today. Sure you can. But odds are against it. I hear all the time "what happens when those fancy electronics go out" Well for one I just don't here of it actually happening much to begin with and what cost more. A replacement computer at a 150k or a new motor.


Last two silverados I had were sold at right around a 100k. Not one bit of problem with either other then standard wear items like tires brakes wipers. Newest one is at 50k. SO that's 250k (granted with newer trucks) and not even ONE trip to the dealership for a warrantee issue. Buy the way those last two trucks are still going strong. Ones been a plow truck since I sold it. Had the snot worked out of it. Over 200k and a 100 of that has been work a half ton truck shouldnt be used for. Still burns no oil is on the original tranny. Other then normal wear items hes had to put one injector in it an exhaust system, rebuild the front end and put new front wheel bearings and the radio quit working. We drove it every other day for 2 months a 120 miles round trip to do crop damage shooting and it still goes down the road like a new truck. But I will say it does have some serious rust now. But find something up here that's 14 years old that doesn't unless it was a garage queen. Don't know about the salt usage where you live but up here what you saw with even 10 year old pickups were not only body rust but even frames that rusted so bad they broke. Wasn't just the domestics either. I think every Toyota pickup that was more then 5 years old back then had a stake body on it. They rusted worse then the American trucks. But I will concede back then they did have drive trains that outlasted there bodys.


Sure life was simpler and so were the vehicles. But youd be a real dumb @@@ if they parked a brand new 79 chev next to a brand new 2019 chev with the same price on both (because with cost of living they did cost the same) and you actually had to use them for a daily driver and you left that dealership with the 79. Or had a 79 corvette and a 2019 sitting there and had the same choice. For that one if you picked the 79 you should be committed!! A 69 427 might make me hesitate right up to about the time I came to my senses and remembered DAILY DRIVER (think octane boost and 8mpg) .


One thing for sure for dammed sure an L-71 or ls6 isn't going to run a 100k without pulling the motor and they took an owner that actually knew how to set valve lash or sync carbs (first thing most serious races did back them with tri powers chevs and dual quad mopars is pull the carbs and manifold off and stick them in a box and put a single big double pump holley on them just like chev did themselves with the ls6 and there real bullet the zl1) and spending your weekend slapping a new clutch in on the side of the road or rebuilding a holley. Don't even think about missing a shift because you WILL have parts on the road because those stock big blocks did NOT like 7000rpm. Might get away with it a time or two with your 327 but not a big block unless it had a forged crank rods and pistons and was set up so loose that you were happy with 500 miles to a quart of oil. That's what my ls6 got with 20k on it.


HEMIS?? running joke back then was they threw two cases of oil (20-50 by the way) and 2 dozen plugs in the trunk when you drove it off the show room and youd probably stop once on the way home and swap out the carboned up plugs and toss in a quart of oil. There fun to talk about but some seem to have clouded memories or just read about them in hot rod magazine. I do like this though. Its a trip down memory lane. Guy can laugh now at the cars that taught them how to swear. Wouldn't trade those memorys for anything. Back then a street racer wore a raggedy dirty t shirt and had grease on his hands and nails that would go away with a weeks washing. today they can do it in leather jackets and nike sneakers and the closest they come to popping the hood open is watch the workers at the quick lube do it. Ill agree with one thing. The new cars and drivers just don't have the soul that was there in the 60s and early 70s. back when your hands got you a win not your check book.
 
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