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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Was looking at charts today. Seems to me the 7mm Mauser in it's original 173 grain loading at 2300 fps, isn't to different from the 30-30 in 170 gr. at 2200-2300 fps...

OK, granted the 173 gr bullet is heavy for caliber at 7mm... so I expect it to shoot flatter... but for practical purposes, is this to say the 30-30 and 7mm are about equal?
 

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Nope, I wouldn't say so. The 173 gn 7mm, being heavy for the bore (but the original weight) pentrates far better than the 30-30 due to its spire pointed design. The 30-30 with its rnfp design is a excellent hunting cartridge, as is the 7mm btw. I don't know which would hsoot flatter.....

If I had the option for medium sized game I would go with the 30-30 due to its lightweight and cycling speed. If I was looking at heavier game and possibly dangerous I would run a 173 gn 7mm as fast as I could push it from a Mauser bolt, which would be near 7mm mag velocities.

I wouldn't say equal or about equal. I think the 7mm has a good leg up on the 30-30, imo.
 

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I'd say the 7x57 is more of a long range catridge closer to a 30-40 Krag than a 30-30.
 

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What about that 160 grain leverevolution?? that should stretch the yardage a little.
 

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I wouldn't worry about it too much.
if I had one of either I wouldn't feel handicapped
for lack of the other. frequent practice and
familiarity is what makes for a good marksman
and hunter.
 

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it depends on what you call near, my speer reloading book lists the highest velocity at 2596 fps with rl 22 for the 175gr bullet for the 7x57 mauser in a ruger 77 and the 7mm mag runs at 2954 fps with h-870 in a rem 700. thats 358 fps difference. eastbank.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
eastbank said:
it depends on what you call near, my speer reloading book lists the highest velocity at 2596 fps with rl 22 for the 175gr bullet for the 7x57 mauser in a ruger 77 and the 7mm mag runs at 2954 fps with h-870 in a rem 700. thats 358 fps difference. eastbank.
I was simply looking at the figure for representative rounds in Wikipedia. Seems the traditional 7x57 and 30-30 rounds are neck and neck in bullet weight and velocity. Assuming the figures are correct, I was surprised that the 7mm is listed at 2300 fps. I'd have expected 2600-2800.

E.g

7mm...

11.2 g (173 gr) Factory Military[/t][/t] 700 m/s (2,300 ft/s) 2,746 J (2,025 ft·lbf)

30-30
170 gr (11 g) FP[/t][/t] 2,227 ft/s (679 m/s) 1,873 ft·lbf (2,539 J)

After seeing that and thinking... "Hmm... this was the 7mm round that caused the 30-06 to be developed... so 30-30 might be a whole lot better than it's given credit for.."

Granted the SD and Round Nose vrs. Spitzer issue aside. I'm not sure how much that accounts for at the moment. Guess I'll have to check a ballistics calculator.

What I was thinking is... Maybe the 30-30 is a lot better than some folks think, at least as good as 7.62x39 and perhaps almost as good as the original 7x57.
 

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flmason said:
eastbank said:
it depends on what you call near, my speer reloading book lists the highest velocity at 2596 fps with rl 22 for the 175gr bullet for the 7x57 mauser in a ruger 77 and the 7mm mag runs at 2954 fps with h-870 in a rem 700. thats 358 fps difference. eastbank.
I was simply looking at the figure for representative rounds in Wikipedia. Seems the traditional 7x57 and 30-30 rounds are neck and neck in bullet weight and velocity. Assuming the figures are correct, I was surprised that the 7mm is listed at 2300 fps. I'd have expected 2600-2800.

E.g

7mm...

11.2 g (173 gr) Factory Military[/t][/t] 700 m/s (2,300 ft/s) 2,746 J (2,025 ft·lbf)

30-30
170 gr (11 g) FP[/t][/t] 2,227 ft/s (679 m/s) 1,873 ft·lbf (2,539 J)

After seeing that and thinking... "Hmm... this was the 7mm round that caused the 30-06 to be developed... so 30-30 might be a whole lot better than it's given credit for.."

Granted the SD and Round Nose vrs. Spitzer issue aside. I'm not sure how much that accounts for at the moment. Guess I'll have to check a ballistics calculator.

What I was thinking is... Maybe the 30-30 is a lot better than some folks think, at least as good as 7.62x39 and perhaps almost as good as the original 7x57.
Has to do with the tired old guns available to shoot the cartridge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
gene_225 said:
flmason said:
eastbank said:
it depends on what you call near, my speer reloading book lists the highest velocity at 2596 fps with rl 22 for the 175gr bullet for the 7x57 mauser in a ruger 77 and the 7mm mag runs at 2954 fps with h-870 in a rem 700. thats 358 fps difference. eastbank.
I was simply looking at the figure for representative rounds in Wikipedia. Seems the traditional 7x57 and 30-30 rounds are neck and neck in bullet weight and velocity. Assuming the figures are correct, I was surprised that the 7mm is listed at 2300 fps. I'd have expected 2600-2800.

E.g

7mm...

11.2 g (173 gr) Factory Military[/t][/t] 700 m/s (2,300 ft/s) 2,746 J (2,025 ft·lbf)

30-30
170 gr (11 g) FP[/t][/t] 2,227 ft/s (679 m/s) 1,873 ft·lbf (2,539 J)

After seeing that and thinking... "Hmm... this was the 7mm round that caused the 30-06 to be developed... so 30-30 might be a whole lot better than it's given credit for.."

Granted the SD and Round Nose vrs. Spitzer issue aside. I'm not sure how much that accounts for at the moment. Guess I'll have to check a ballistics calculator.

What I was thinking is... Maybe the 30-30 is a lot better than some folks think, at least as good as 7.62x39 and perhaps almost as good as the original 7x57.
Has to do with the tired old guns available to shoot the cartridge.
Well not in theory... if Wiki is to be believed the above figure is the military 7x57 figure?
 

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Mikey said:
I would run a 173 gn 7mm as fast as I could push it from a Mauser bolt, which would be near 7mm mag velocities.





I would caution anyone reading this thread to remember that, if YOUR 7mm (7x57) Mauser is a cock-on-opening Mauser 93/95/etc, handloading one even a little above ca. 1900 7x57 pressures/velocities can easily result in a disasterous auto-disassembly of those rifles when fired.




.
 

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Re-thinking this......

I believe it's half a dozen of one, and seven of the other.
 

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Drilling said:
Why not compare SD's, then see what happens!

DM
Clearly the heavier thinner bullet will have a better BC even with both having a round nose.
But I see what he is talking about.
175 grains is heavy for caliber for the 7X57 and the 170 is heavy for 30-30.
I like heavy for caliber bullets for the woods. I have shot a lot of deer in NC many, close up 50 yards or closer. The heavy for caliber and round nose the better. I can't tell you why but these bullets work well as "brush busters" and put game on the ground. I know that the bullets do not actually fly well through the weeds and sticks. I think they got this as they put deer down and they do not run off. It seems the better the BC the better they fly for distance and the flatter the trajectory. I use them for longer range but they do not have the knock down of the heavy for caliber round nose bullets do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
mcwoodduck said:
Drilling said:
Why not compare SD's, then see what happens!

DM
Clearly the heavier thinner bullet will have a better BC even with both having a round nose.
But I see what he is talking about.
175 grains is heavy for caliber for the 7X57 and the 170 is heavy for 30-30.
I like heavy for caliber bullets for the woods. I have shot a lot of deer in NC many, close up 50 yards or closer. The heavy for caliber and round nose the better. I can't tell you why but these bullets work well as "brush busters" and put game on the ground. I know that the bullets do not actually fly well through the weeds and sticks. I think they got this as they put deer down and they do not run off. It seems the better the BC the better they fly for distance and the flatter the trajectory. I use them for longer range but they do not have the knock down of the heavy for caliber round nose bullets do.
Definitely 7x57 wins the "flatter shooting, ballistically better" contest by a slight margin because it's smaller in diameter for the same weight. The typical spitzer helps too. But Leverevolution now exists too.

But it definitely jumped out at me while studying tables, that the 7x57 that set everyone on their ear and led to the development of the '06 seems to be nearly in the same energy and velocity range as 30-30.

For some reason, everyone ooo's and aaaah's over 7x57, while 30-30 gets panned as "entry level big game" and such. And well... I'm just not sure that makes sense.

If those early 7x57 loadings kicked the proverbial @ss... well 30-30 doesn't look too terribly different on paper.

So I'm thinking 30-30 may be just fine for almost anything in N.A. with a 311-041 pushed to 2200 fps or thereabouts.

But just a guess.

30-06 has, for most of my life been the one I considered the "middle of the pack" cartridge.
 

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if your rifle cocks on opening its a good action, much stronger than a cock on closing like a 91,93,95,96. and 98 mausers in good condition like the vz 24 or any of the south american or later mexican mausers in 7mm can be loaded to 2700-2800 fps with 140-150gr bullets safely and with spitzer bullets it shoots so much flatter than any 30-30 with the same weight bullet. you may pick up a little speed on shooting with the lever action,but on aimed shoots the bolt gun will not be far behind. as far as speed goes, try a pump remington 7600 in .308 or 7mm08. eastbank.
 

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flmason said:
mcwoodduck said:
Drilling said:
Why not compare SD's, then see what happens!

DM
Clearly the heavier thinner bullet will have a better BC even with both having a round nose.
But I see what he is talking about.
175 grains is heavy for caliber for the 7X57 and the 170 is heavy for 30-30.
I like heavy for caliber bullets for the woods. I have shot a lot of deer in NC many, close up 50 yards or closer. The heavy for caliber and round nose the better. I can't tell you why but these bullets work well as "brush busters" and put game on the ground. I know that the bullets do not actually fly well through the weeds and sticks. I think they got this as they put deer down and they do not run off. It seems the better the BC the better they fly for distance and the flatter the trajectory. I use them for longer range but they do not have the knock down of the heavy for caliber round nose bullets do.
Definitely 7x57 wins the "flatter shooting, ballistically better" contest by a slight margin because it's smaller in diameter for the same weight. The typical spitzer helps too. But Leverevolution now exists too.

But it definitely jumped out at me while studying tables, that the 7x57 that set everyone on their ear and led to the development of the '06 seems to be nearly in the same energy and velocity range as 30-30.

For some reason, everyone ooo's and aaaah's over 7x57, while 30-30 gets panned as "entry level big game" and such. And well... I'm just not sure that makes sense.

If those early 7x57 loadings kicked the proverbial @ss... well 30-30 doesn't look too terribly different on paper.

So I'm thinking 30-30 may be just fine for almost anything in N.A. with a 311-041 pushed to 2200 fps or thereabouts.

But just a guess.

30-06 has, for most of my life been the one I considered the "middle of the pack" cartridge.
Speed of the bullet is what denotes what makes one bullet flatter shooting that the next.
So if both the 30-30 and the 7X57 are leaving the barrel at 2300 FPS they will drop at the same rate. Gravity pulls things to the ground at 32 feet per second / second. So if a bullet is in flight for a second at 2300 FPS it will drop 32 feet at just over 766 yards assuming no velocity loss. It does not matter if that hunk of lead is .308, .284, or 458 caliber.
Now BC does play into how fast a bullet sheds velocity and a long pointy bullet will drop velocity slower than a flat point cylinder. But the lower the BC the better the bullet will do on game. So if 100 yards is your average shooting distance, then either round nose bullet will work well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
mcwoodduck said:
flmason said:
mcwoodduck said:
Drilling said:
Why not compare SD's, then see what happens!

DM
Clearly the heavier thinner bullet will have a better BC even with both having a round nose.
But I see what he is talking about.
175 grains is heavy for caliber for the 7X57 and the 170 is heavy for 30-30.
I like heavy for caliber bullets for the woods. I have shot a lot of deer in NC many, close up 50 yards or closer. The heavy for caliber and round nose the better. I can't tell you why but these bullets work well as "brush busters" and put game on the ground. I know that the bullets do not actually fly well through the weeds and sticks. I think they got this as they put deer down and they do not run off. It seems the better the BC the better they fly for distance and the flatter the trajectory. I use them for longer range but they do not have the knock down of the heavy for caliber round nose bullets do.
Definitely 7x57 wins the "flatter shooting, ballistically better" contest by a slight margin because it's smaller in diameter for the same weight. The typical spitzer helps too. But Leverevolution now exists too.

But it definitely jumped out at me while studying tables, that the 7x57 that set everyone on their ear and led to the development of the '06 seems to be nearly in the same energy and velocity range as 30-30.

For some reason, everyone ooo's and aaaah's over 7x57, while 30-30 gets panned as "entry level big game" and such. And well... I'm just not sure that makes sense.

If those early 7x57 loadings kicked the proverbial @ss... well 30-30 doesn't look too terribly different on paper.

So I'm thinking 30-30 may be just fine for almost anything in N.A. with a 311-041 pushed to 2200 fps or thereabouts.

But just a guess.

30-06 has, for most of my life been the one I considered the "middle of the pack" cartridge.
Speed of the bullet is what denotes what makes one bullet flatter shooting that the next.
So if both the 30-30 and the 7X57 are leaving the barrel at 2300 FPS they will drop at the same rate. Gravity pulls things to the ground at 32 feet per second / second. So if a bullet is in flight for a second at 2300 FPS it will drop 32 feet at just over 766 yards assuming no velocity loss. It does not matter if that hunk of lead is .308, .284, or 458 caliber.
Now BC does play into how fast a bullet sheds velocity and a long pointy bullet will drop velocity slower than a flat point cylinder. But the lower the BC the better the bullet will do on game. So if 100 yards is your average shooting distance, then either round nose bullet will work well.
Bottom line is, the 7x57 will have a longer point blank range because it has less wind resistance.

I'm curious just how much better it does than the 7.62 bullet at the same velocity.

I guess that thing to do is google a ballistics calculator.

That said, was wondering if anyone else had ever noticed this.
 

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Looking at my Speer Reloading book it shows that the 308 170 grain has a BC of .304
And a 175 grain 284 Mag tip has a BC of .385
For reference the 350 grain flat point 458 for a 45-70 has a BC of .232
and a 240 grain JSP .429 (44 Mag) has a BC of .165

I include 45-70 and 44 Mag only because when I moved to CA 20 years ago I started to read more and more about Elk hunting and found it funny that most of the writers all said that 30-30 was not enough. But at the same time said that 44 mag out of a handgun was perfect.
Just looking at the ballistic charts at the time the 30-30 as you said was pushing a 170 grain bullet at 2200 to 2300 FPS and the 44 Mag was pushing a 180 grain bullet at 1600 at best from a pistol. even with a 240 grain at that speed out of a carbine is not as fast as the 30-30.
Most said that the 300 Win Mag was the best caliber and it too launches the same .308 bullets just faster, but when they talk about hitting an Elk at 300 yards the 300 Win Mag is moving 2300 FPS with a 180 grain bullet. At that point I figured they suggested the 300 Win because it has a flat trajectory and can carry 30-30 performance to 300 + yards.
The 30-30, 7X57, 303Brit, 6.5X55, 6.5X54 Manlicher, 8X57, 8X50 label, 7.62X54R were all answers to the same question. Later all had lighter bullets added to gain speed and get flatter trajectory.
 
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