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Discussion Starter #1
Browsing on the Midway Supplies web site, I checked the customer reviews regarding the 8mm (.323) 180 Grain Barnes X bullet. An Alaskan gave a glowing testimonial to this bullet and reported a muzzle veolcity of 4255 fps (!) in a .378 Weatherby necked down to 8mm, using 115 Grains of IMR 7828 Powder in a rifle with a 30" barrel. Claimed it produced one shot kills on a dozen or so moose and bears.

I've never heard of this wildcat before, although I've read of the 30-378 Weatherbee. Never heard of anything approaching 4000 fps with the 180 grain bullet though nor have I read of any rifle with a 30" barrel.

Anyone have any comments on this one?
 

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OUCH!! :x 180 grain Barnes X at over 4,200 fps...that's GOTTA HURT! :eek:

I can comment on the Barnes X bullets as I have used them extensively. They are too strong for thin skinned game like deer, but great on hogs, and almost perfect - I would imagine - on the big critters like moose, elk, and bear.

If you use the Barnes X on whitetails, and if you want the bullet to expand properly, you need to drive them fast. If using, say, a 30-06, don't use 180 grain or even 165 grain bullets - the MOST you should use is 150 grain. In 7mm Rem Mag or Ultra Mag - go with 140 grain Barnes X. Weight retension is super high - usually VERY close to 100%.

Zachary
 

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There was a .338-378

And, in the ballistic tables they list loads of 3,528 fps for a 200 grain bullet so I suppose that he might be right. One point in the article is that it had the same kick as a .458 Magnum.

Not me!

Edited this:

I looked on the net and found reamers and brass for the 8mm-.378. No reloading data except the .338 and .358-.378. The .35-.378 is impressive but there are no rhino in Alaska. :eek:
 

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I was thinking along the same lines - at what point is too much simply too much? I mean really, a 30" barrel? Why don't they just use iron sewer pipes. :?

Zachary
 

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Try this for a mintal image.

Shooting "P" dogs at 500 yards with a 22-50BMG in a 50" barrel. You'll have a blue streak, as the atmosphere becomes ionized after a huge white/yellow fire ball, all the way out to 3 miles going through a round radish haze at 500 yards as the once “P” dog goes supernova. :wink:

Just a thought.

Donna
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Setting aside the issue of need, I am more concerned with the issue of whether 4,255 fps is even possible with that cartridge. I checked the loading manuals for the 30-378 and the top speed for the 180 grain bullet was about 3500 fps. Granted that was in a 26" barrel and granted the 8mm bullet of equal weight will genereate more muzzle velocity because it has a larger base area for the gas to push against, but can you really get to more than 4000 fps with a 180 grain bullet just by adding 4" of barrel and a few thousanths of bullet base to push against? It just does not seem possible! There is not that much difference between a .308 and .323 cal 180 grain bullets for there to be that much of a gain in velocity even with an additional 4" of barrel. These are .220 Swift velocities!

People are always a little optimistic about their own creations and one way to verify if they're in reality or the Twilight Zone is to cross-check their data against other data from other sources such as reloading manuals, etc. I did that and don't see how this guy gets more than 4000 fps.

Am I all wet? Is there some technical aspect of this I'm not seeing?
 

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I think ....

that until we are allowed to hunt with lasers someone will always be looking for the biggest meanest baddest magnum to compensate for their lack of hunting skills. :lol:
 

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I don't know about the truthfulness of all that foolishness, Advocate. Maybe he has got him a "fast" 30" barrel. Or maybe, it is true. I don't know. What I do know, is that he ain't making any better or more impressive kills with that rifle than he would with a a 8mm Rem Mag or 338 Win Mag, and with those you don't have to tote around a barrel that is nigh on 3 feet long or a gun that weighs 12 lbs. I mean holy cow, how does he slip through the alder thickets? Does he just shoot 'em from his boat? Think about it, as far as velocity goes, when it gets high enough to make the bullet do what it's supposed to do, it don't matter no more. That bullet is the same diameter, construction and weight if it is 2,000 fps or 3,000 fps when it hits the animal. On an animal as big as a moose or brown bear, they ain't going to be shocked down by no speed. Nossir.

Sides that, he's carrying around a whole can of powder in just three or four cartridges. A good application I could see is 1,000 yard target matches, he's got some kind of flat trajectory comparatively speaking, but he'd have to push up the bullet weight to a better sectional density for stability and wind resistance. Still, that kind of punishment to the shoulder would limit how accurate he is.

Another question is, what would that bullet do if he had to shoot an animal right out about 30 yards? I suspect with such a low density and such a high velocity, things just might go asunder.

Just my .02, guess I'm feeling grumpy. :oops:
 

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Sounds to me like a good candidate for an in-accurate round. A.K.A. - "I can miss the target faster than you". Also would likely shoot out barrels REAL quick. Can't think of a better way to work on developing a flinch every time I hit that trigger. But, who knows, sounds like he's rather happy so, Rock on buddy.
 

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hows about this one, page 206 new cartridges of the world.
case from 20mm cannon,42 " barrel.

50 mcmillan fatmac
510gr barnes x
powder-H50BMG-386.3GRS
volocity---3,893fps
energy----17,164ft lbs
 

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Hello,

Yukon Jack - Strictly speaking the Mass or weight of a bullet would increase from one velocity to a greater velocity, take a look at my page on Relativity. But commonly speaking I know what your saying. OUCH on the shoulder!

Donna
 

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Donna, :D
Nobody will disagree with Mr. Einstein, yet the increase is fairly miniscule and cannot overcome the adverse effects of too light weight for stability over long range. Momentum is a key factor when other forces are at work on an object, in this case gravity, drag and a horizontal force of wind. What Einstein's realitivity concedes is that a projectile pushed at increasing velocities will compress by certain amounts which, in turn, decreases ballistic coeffiency. The practical implication of this is proven that nearly all 1,000 yard tournaments and military snipers use bullets that are a bit long and have extremely high ballistic coefficients. Yes, these are typically pushed at high speeds, but not to the effect of noticeable compression. Sure we could shoot short bullets that are extremely dense, but the aerodynamic shape of the bullet is more adversely affected by drag that something of a longer, sleeker design. Granted this is taking it to the extreme, but a flying dense disk isn't as effective or efficient as a flying, dense spear.

Another problem, as I see it, is bullets are designed and manufactured and operate at a range of velocities, pushed too fast and they will either destabilize or come apart, pushed too slow and they will destabilize and not expand. Granted the stabilization issue can be compensated somewhat by the rate of twist for a given bullet shape, length, density and speed, but I don't think Barnes or anyone else will guarantee bullet performance in the 8mm or any other big game caliber over 4,000 fps in living tissue and bone.

I, for one, have made the mistake of pushing bullets well beyond their design parameters. Many years ago I purchased a 270 Wby Mag. Thinking that if a 270 Win was good for long range shooting of deer size game, well the 270 Wby would be so much more the better, right? It was to varying degrees as long as the animal was far enough away to allow the bullet to perform within it's designed velocities. What ended up happening was, in the real world, my hot 130 grain handloads were pushed fast enough that when I encountered game (deer and caribou) much closer than I anticipated, the bullet came apart with explosive affects. Yeah the animals died and they died on the spot. That might have been fine for a lot of hunters, but I do enjoy eating the meat that I shoot and a shoulder shot caribou, or even if I hit ribs, lost of lot of the meat I intended to utilize. Also range testing different loads to find something that would stand up to bone at close range, I found that 140 grain bullets, even though they started out a bit slower than the 130's, had a much better shape, sectional density (and because of these two - a much higher BC) actually had a flatter trajectory. I know all things drop due to gravity at the same rate over a specified amount of time, but the 140's actually covered 300 yards and more over a shorter amount of time than the lighter 130's did.

I don't mean this in any way, except to state for long range shooting, what we are looking for is the best fit of BC, speed, and stability. We can't make a bullet with less than ideal shape and weight measure up to bullet with better fit of ideal shape and weight, no matter how fast we push it. For the 8mm, a bullet of 200-220 grains of proper shape and construction pushed at 8mm Rem Mag speeds is a much better choice of bullet than a 180 grain bullet pushed at 4,000 fps. 180 grain 8mm bullets just don't have the sectional density or construction to perform reliably at 4,000 fps. As long as we stay within the design parameters of the bullets, barrels and pressures of the cartridges, we should have an excellent hunting rig. Get too fast or too much pressure and things don't perform well.

The last comment is what increase in weight constitutes an increase? Dealing in absolute terms, any weight added, but in the manufacturing world (where bullets are made and sold) even if using the concept of six sigma quality control, we are only looking at +- 3sd of weight, those variances being far above any "weight" gained by Einstein's theory of relativity. To operate in the world, a bullet from any manufacturer labeled 180 grains will never weigh exactly 180.000000000000 grains. Significantly, using 3 sd above or below the mean for any given batch, will be within manufacturing specs, of say, 180.001 grains (or whatever industry standards there are). So, to me, there is no weight gain in the practical world or manufacturing world that really can be considered or even should be, it never really becomes a factor.
Whew, enough engineering for one day.

Donna, by the way, you have a very nice website. Lots of good information there. Kudos to you, that must of taken a lot of work to put up there. I, for one, would like to thank you for doing so.
 

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Yukon Jack :D

I totally know what you’re saying about bullet design parameters. I swag bullets, that’s the process of making metals flow by means of pressure vice casting to make metals flow by means of heat. For fun I take fired .22 rimfire cases and turn them into jacketed bullets. On the most part they will operate fine around 3100 fps but any past that and you start seeing gray clouds of lead dust erupting down range when the centrifugal forces exceeds the strength of the jacket and lead core strength of the bullet. Very thin jacketed bullets specially of the .22 caliber variety pushed at high velocities has been known to explode on coyote’s skin at fairly close ranges unfortunately allowing the animal to live a short while but in great pain. Although the other hand is also true with a stout bullet at long ranges will allow the bullet to slow down below it’s design parameter and will not expand properly or at all in the animal for the best humane kill desirable. So, I totally agree with you. And while my web site is to be functionally useful to shooters and hunters, I do show some none real world applications of shooting just to try to inspirer the intellect in the neat ways to apply mathematics just for fun. But mathematically, the pressures and dynamic forces involved with lunching a 180 grain projectile over 4200 fps is not something I would like to interact with short of 50 yards away much less up close and cuddly. :wink:

Donna
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Donna: The 180 grain bullet used was the all copper Barnes X bullet. It has no jacket and is totally homogeneous. Does that change your conclusions?
 

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All it changes is it’s ability to perform in external ballistics and terminal ballistics it does not have anything to do with internal ballistics, only the mass of 180 grains as far as the pressures and dynamic forces involved with the lunching of such a projectile at that velocity is concerned and my wanting to be no were near it when it is lit off. :-D

I am not even concerned or dealing with the performance of the structural integrity of the bullet while inside the barrel. :wink:

Donna
 

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I think there is some concern of internal ballistics using the Barnes X's. The X's have known to elevate pressures due to their construction. The length of a Barnes X in 180 grains is a bit longer than the typical lead core bullet, so deeper seating is required. All of this does change the internal ballistics somewhat.

Externally, what Advocate is getting to, is a whole 'nuther ball game. Even with its "solid" design, the design parameters to make the petals open and maintain its integrity is still below that magical 4,000 fps. So, yes the bullet would probably "come apart" or lose its expansive properties and turn into a short lightweight wadcutter of 8mm diameter, at least until the velocity drops below whatever Barnes' upper design velocity is. The more that velocity is raised, the more the lowel design limit is raised. There will still be a specific fps range which the bullet is designed to expand. Encountering bone or raking shots narrows that range even more the lighter in weight you go.
 

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Once knew and old boy who had a rifle that weighed in at around 15 pounds and it was called the Cody Express, it had around a 30 inch stainless barrel and would get out to a 1000 yards real quick like. I do believe it was over around 4000fps with a 250 grain bullet give or take.
 

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Well if a 30-378 shoots a 180 grn at roughly 3500 fps do you think that because it has a bigger bore diameter that an 8mm-378 will produce 700fps more? A 782 Warbird will only do 3950 with a 130 grn and it is faster than the 30-378 in all weights.
 
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