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:? Hi Gang,

Which is better? the .405 Winchester or the 45-70? Which has better ballistics? Which has the best loads? Which has the best down range capability? Which has a better impact at the farthest range? Why doesn't H&R make a BC or Target in the .405? Is it possible to have one made? Or is all this a moot point since we have so many good loads for the 45-70?

Just thinking out loud.....and of course dreaming of my next project gun.

Thanks,
JT
 

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Well you certainly are interested in it now aren't you :) :)

I'm not meaning to be sarcastic by this...so...don't take this wrong...but...you really need to pick up some reloading manuals and compare the 2 rounds...but for what it's worth...the 405 is a great round...it too suffers from underloading for modern rifles...and can be loaded up...but...as good as it is...it won't equal a hot 45-70 from any of the specialty loading companies...I would jump at the chance to have one in a Handi if offered and do have plans to convert a 38-55 over to one...this would make a very nice conversion.. and I have dreamed of having one for most of my adult life....but...by all rights...a 45-70 can and has been loaded to much higher velocities...my reasons for wanting one is reeading about it in Africa and TR...so it's more sentamental...than actual need...

Mac
 

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simple answer 45/70.
As what mac said the ammo from buffalo bore, garrett and others
prove you cant go wrong with this classic
 

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It ain't as sexy, but get a 44 Mag barrel and ream it to 444 Marlin. The 444 and 405 are ballistic twins, loaded to the same practical pressures, and seperted in bore by a mere .011" or so I guaranteeanythig youshoot with it will not stand up and say "That wasn't a 405" Quite a few of the jacketed .429 300 grainers stabilize just fine in the 1:38 twist of the Handi barrel, so there is no short coming in usable bullet weight either.

The real juice would be to take a 38-55 barrel, (or the 24" 223 bull barrel) have it rebored to a 400 and then chamber for the 400 Hawk, a modern version of the 400 Whelen. You would then be able to handle bullets as heavy as 400 grains, equal the 45-70 in raw power and have better ballistics to boot. The 375 and 400 Scovill/Hawk are a fairly popular conversion of the 1895 Winchester, the platform Winchester used for the 405.
 

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Mac11700 if you get a chance , the feb. 05 guns and ammo has a good artical on the 405 . they were using it on water buffalo and hogs DOWN UNDER in australia and new zealand , might be worth a look see
 

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stimpylu32 said:
Mac11700 if you get a chance , the feb. 05 guns and ammo has a good artical on the 405 . they were using it on water buffalo and hogs DOWN UNDER in australia and new zealand , might be worth a look see
I got that issue...and read it about 25 times already :)...but thanks for the heads up on it...it is a good read...and the little lady did pretty good with it on that old Buff...

I know it's a good round...and I want one...heck...there are soooo many different ones I want...sometimes it just hurts to think about it :-D

Mac
 

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.405-.45-70

The .40-65 would also be a very nice chambering in a handirifle, just the .45-70 necked down, 400gr bullets do go pretty fast, likely in the new actions, easily developed up quite a bit, and , another old timer really due to resurge.
:)
 

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The only thing that the 405 does better than the 45/70 is in digging a hole in your wallet. Ammo is close to double for the 405 !

With the 45-70 you can use level3/Ruger loads that stomp the 405 in terms of energy, along with a heavier bullet that drills a bigger hole in the target, ta boot.

The 405 is a cartridge that should have stayed dead, period...it offers NOTHING of any practical value over many BETTER calibers on the market.

The 45-70 is a cartridge that has never died, and probably never will...it IS THAT GOOD !
 

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glock29 said:
The only thing that the 405 does better than the 45/70 is in digging a hole in your wallet. Ammo is close to double for the 405 !

With the 45-70 you can use level3/Ruger loads that stomp the 405 in terms of energy, along with a heavier bullet that drills a bigger hole in the target, ta boot.

The 405 is a cartridge that should have stayed dead, period...it offers NOTHING of any practical value over many BETTER calibers on the market.

The 45-70 is a cartridge that has never died, and probably never will...it IS THAT GOOD !
No-one is doubting the tenacity of the 45-70 Glock29...but...I wonder...since your disdain for the caliber is evident...what do you really know about it...hmmm..what makes the 45-70 sooooooooo much better than the 405 Winchester...really...what animal would know the difference...both have taken the largest on the planet have they not?....So what if the standard ammo cost a few bucks more...who really cares..and that's funny...I don't remember anyone hunting dangerous game with the cheaper 45-70 ammo lately...I do recall hearing about Garrets ammo...and Cor-Bons ammo being used...and if my memory serves me correctly...isn't that around $40-$55 a box for that stuff....all the while...you try to run it down because it doesn't meet your standards of being a magnumized cartridge...In all honesty...I would be willing to bet the 405 Winchester has taken as much Large Dangerous game...as the 45-70 has...especially in Africa...so. why don't you add some credence to your argument that it should have stayed dead...what I do know is...for just as the 45-70 can be loaded up...so too can the 405 Winchester in a suitable rifle...with suitable bullets...This is the only disadvantage I see right now...but you know...I would be willing to bet...that the guys like Swage and a few others on this forum could fix that...by making some bullets that would be better than those of Hornady's or the old Winchesters...ya know...

Mac
 

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If memory serves me well, I think Teddy Roesvelt swore by the 405 Win for any animal on earth. He shot most if not all the dangerous game animals with is and loved it. In a lever gun too, I believe.

Like was said before, the modern 405 is as underloaded as the 45-70 factory loads are. Truth be known they and the 444 are so close, nothing could tell the difference on the receiving end. Especially with modern bullets.

One must remember that MANY cartridges of old and some newer ones, got their reputation made or ruined because of the bullets they cose to load them with.

The 444 is a good example of thet, to a lesser degree the 243 is as well. Both rounds have had complaints of bullets failing to penetrate and the cartridge was blamed. Put a Partition or similar in there and the whole picture changes.

When comparing the 444 to the 405 or 45-70, remember the 444 was loaded with lightweight deer bullets and the other two were loaded for bigger critters. Load a 444 with a 300gr (or heavier) Parttion type bullet at 2300-2400fps or more (from some I've read, as in 26-2700) and it, and it will drop just about anything you'd care to shoot.

Not making some claim here that one is better than another, just that they are all VERY close.

Besidesnot everyone loike Glocks either. Give me a Kimber over a "block" any day. And yes I have shot MANY rounds through both.

All that said, my High Point 9mm is VERY accurate (4 shots, one jagged hole at 7yds) and has NEVER jammed or failed to fire yet. That for $150 NEW. Do that with a Glock OR Kimber.

Main point is to each his own. That's why there is more than one caliber out there.
 

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:wink:

All that said, my High Point 9mm is VERY accurate (4 shots, one jagged hole at 7yds) and has NEVER jammed or failed to fire yet. That for $150 NEW. Do that with a Glock OR Kimber.
Actually...I can do that with my Kimber Custom Super...it's probably the most accurate 45 I've ever owned...and with +P 200 grain flying ash tray Speers...it hasn't jammed 1 time...it is a pure work of art the way they built it many years ago...but...at the cost of $800...in 91'...a bit pricey...alot...more than the $150 you spent...but well worth it to me...and your right...different stokes for different folks...and sooner or later...I will have me a Handi in 405 Winchester...I think it would be an ideal round for it in the 28" barrel...
 

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Mac
I agree. On both points. The Kimbers are nice. If I could afford one, I'd have one.

I also think the 405 is about perfect for a big bore. Big enough for anything but small enough to be loaded down to pleasant loads.

Good bullet selection too, I understand.
 

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consider this option

I also had considered having a .405 Winchester barrel made but noticed that the .450 Marlin is almost its clone. Only significant difference is that it uses .458 bullets. Plus, they are an option in the barrel accessory program. And one of the cheaper ones also.

When my Handi goes in for its .223 barrel, I'm going to get a .450 Marlin at the same time. The .45-70 fans are starting to jump up & down waving reloading manuals. :D Yes, I know about the .45-70. I got my first .45-70 in 1971. Am also getting a .45-70 Buffalo Classic barrel for SASS matches. But it will be too long and the sights not suitable for close hawg hunting.

The .450 brass is more than .45-70 but will be cheaper overall than a custom .405 barrel + .405 brass. Something else to consider in all of this.

My 2¢,

Pick
 

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Tim:
Again, some people can't get off the performance angle. They don't and probably never will get it.

Wally
 

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.405 vs .45-70

Your reason for wanting a .405 is your reason for wanting a .405. I was the same way about the .30-40 round. I purchased my first handi-rifle in .30-30 and had it chambered to .30-40 before I bothered cleaning it. I did this because I wanted a .30-40. I now have an uncommon caliber. I'm not likely to encounter another when I go to the range. Part of the reason was to have a peice of history. Part because I don't follow crowds. I did what I chose to do and so should you. You want it, get it.

Take care and God bless. Enjoy.

Tom
 
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