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Discussion Starter #1
Some of you who have the 445 super mag chime in here.

I have been running some ballistics with the data some of you have provided here and it looks inpressive.

Pointblank data program shows that 1900 fps with a 300gr. bullet has about 1100fps of energy at 200 yards.

I would think htat would work nicely for elk. Any other thoughts?

I love my 45-70, but this sounds like a winner with less powder and less recoil.
 

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I'm getting 1977fps with a nearmax load with the 300 gr XTP,but I don't know about elk at 200 yds.The book shows 30.7 grs. of 296 as max,and I'm using 30 grs. for the 1977 fps. I think I would use the 240 gr Rem. bullet that they load in the 444 factory loads on elk under 150 yds. It does 2126 fps with a near max load. Digger
 

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Try the hornady 265gr .430 of gold dot 270 .429. they do 2150 out of my 18in marlin in 444.
It has flattened anything I have hit with it (no elk though :cry: ). I'd guess you would get about 2000fps out of a 445 super mag in a handi. That should be plenty :eek: without the recoil of a 444
Good Luck
 

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Jerry, I think a 300gr bullet at 1900 fps out of either rifle in a Handi is going to have the same felt recoil as far as my shoulder would know, even considering the slightly smaller powder charge. Terminal performance would be most important when considering bullet selection, I'd choose a 300gr Nosler partition .458" over a 300gr XTP .44 for elk any day, everything else being equal. You've already got a 45-70 that you can load to any level you want, why go to the trouble and expense to duplicate the 45-70 low end ballistics to save a pound or two of recoil?? Just to have it is another matter, though!! :lol:

Tim
 

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It is surprising to me how much difference in felt recoil the powder charge makes. When I was playing with my 45-70, I quickly decided that I was not going to shoot it 400 grain bullets at even the modest 1600 fps. The difference between 15 grains of Unique and 30 grains of 3031 is surprising. In my 38-55, I'm using 28 grians of 1680, pushing 264 grian bullet at 1900 fps. I can shoot this from the bench all day. It is noticalble but not uncomfortable. the factory W-W 300 45-70 load closk right at that, but it ain't no bench shootin' round. I ain't into a box of it off the bench, much less a day of it. I've also found the 357 Max loaded with 180 grain XTP's to be much milder in recoil than any 30-30 load of equal bullet weight/velocity, and the difference in powder charge weight there is not as great as that between the 445 and 45-70.

To put the question of will the 445 do the job on elk think of this....a 300 grain bullet at 1900 fps is the equivalent of the standard blackpowder 45-90 Express loading, a 300 grain bullet at 1900 fps. I wonder how many elk were killed with that load.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Ditchdigger said:
I'm getting 1977fps with a nearmax load with the 300 gr XTP,but I don't know about elk at 200 yds.The book shows 30.7 grs. of 296 as max,and I'm using 30 grs. for the 1977 fps. I think I would use the 240 gr Rem. bullet that they load in the 444 factory loads on elk under 150 yds. It does 2126 fps with a near max load. Digger
Digger,

I believe it was one of your posts with that exact data that got me to thinking about this very subject.

My question is not about velocity, the load data speaks for itself. I know the 44mag will kill and elk ... it's been done by greater men than me and it certainly has the ability if the energy and bullet weight is there.

My question for you is simple, is their a reduction of recoil in the 445 super mag over the 45-70 with a 300gr. bullet at 1900fps?

If so, then I have the answer I am looking for.

I love my 45-70 and WOULD NEVER think of retiring it. I'm just doing what everyone else does ... thinking, dreaming, and scheming about something new.

The super mag has me interested because it seems I would have another amazingly versatile gun, much like the 45-70. Load it mild with 44 specials and have a fun plinker, load 44mag and take some deer at close range, load it wild with 445 super and take elk a bit further out.

Just sounds like fun.

So, what is the felt recoild of the 445 super mag with a 300gr bullet at 1900fps? Like the 45-70, or not?
 

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Hmmmm, now you guys got me to thinking and digging when JPH45 mentioned the 357....The following data is from the Hornady 6th edition....No offense to Digger, but....

The 444 Marlin max load is 39.7 to 51.3 grs of various powders for 1900-2000fps with the 300gr XTP in a 24" barrel, depending on powder type.

I don't understand how you could get the same velocity out of a shorter barrel with so much less powder using the same bullet....being a newbie to reloading this baffles me....am I missing something here or is there something about W296 powder that allows it to generate so much more velocity than the powders listed in the manual of which it isn't one of em.

Thanks,

Tim :?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
This is from the FAQ page and originally posted by Duce:

The 45th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook also has a table showing Center Fire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length. Their figures apply to barrels between 20 and 26 inches in length and agree with the Remington figures. The Lyman table shows the following approximate velocity changes:

For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 1000-2000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 5 fps.
 

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MtJerry said:
This is from the FAQ page and originally posted by Duce:

The 45th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook also has a table showing Center Fire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length. Their figures apply to barrels between 20 and 26 inches in length and agree with the Remington figures. The Lyman table shows the following approximate velocity changes:

For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 1000-2000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 5 fps.
????? I don't see an answer there, sorry......my point is the 444 Marlin isn't any faster with lots more powder and a longer barrel, just don't see the 22" 445 SM making the same velocity with the same bullet with 10 to 20 grns less powder capacity.

Tim
 

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No problem, Jerry.. I'm hoping Digger will respond...me thinks maybe his chrono setup is maybe to blame.....not that I've had much experience with mine yet, but with the .280 thread bringing out some important issues with chrono setup, it's possible he's getting some erroneous data. Apparently if the chrono is too close to the muzzle of some calibers, it will read too high.....

Digger, maybe you can confirm your chrono readings????

Tim
 

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To further my confusion, the Hornady book shows this data for the 445 Super Mag in an 8" barrel...

1400 fps with 29.4 to 34.5 grs of various powders shooting the 300gr XTP....

That would mean that Digger's extra 14" of barrel provides approx 600fps velocity, or 42 fps per inch...

And for reference, the Hornady book shows the 44 Mag in an 18" barrel with a max velocity of 1400 fps compared to 1200 fps from a 7½" barrel or 19 fps per inch gain.

Still thinking....... maybe too much!!!

Tim :?
 

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I'm getting my data from the Sierra book on hand guns, and it gives 1850 fps with 30.7 grs. of 296. Thats from a super 14 barrel ,and it also states with the 10" barrel that it only gives up about 75 fps.with the shorter barrell. The lighter bullets( 180 to 220 grs.) lose 175 fps.with the shorter barrel. Thats only 4" difference in barrel lenght and the rifle barrel is 8" longer. My speer book list 1 load for the 444 with a 24" barrel and a 300 gr bullet at 2200 fps. I'm loading the 265 gr. Hornady to 2275 fps. in my Marlin 444 with a 22" barrel and it shows no signs of pressure and is very accurate.(less than 1" at 100 yds.) Yes my chrono may be off but it comes very close to some books figures.Also I just shot my 45 70 again with 59 grs. of 3031 and its twice the recoil of the 445 load,with a 300 gr. bullet in each.Also the 4570 was mounted on my Ultra with the stock filled with no.8 shot,and the 445 was on a nef with the pallet wood and no lead.I only shot 3 shot with the 4570 and thats all I wanted for 1 evening.
I'm thinking I was getting about 2100 fps with that load.( did'nt feel like getting the chrono out and checking it after shooting these loads) Before anyone does the rechamber they can check it out more thoroughly and then do it . If you do some math the figures and velocitys will come close to what my chrono says. Digger
 

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It could be due to powder vs case capacity. The larger case NEEDS more powder to generate the same pressures. Like a 9mm pistol that generates the same velocities as the 38 special with same bullet weight....more pressure.

Certain powders will burn (slower) longer, therby keeping peak pressure longer than other powders and resulting in, ,most of the time, more velocity, less pressure overall (at least a lower pressure spike) and more consistant velocities.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
just shot my 45 70 again with 59 grs. of 3031 and its twice the recoil of the 445 load,with a 300 gr. bullet in each.
That's the answer I was looking for.

I'm using 56gr. of 3031 right now to get a hornady 300gr. HP to 1900fps in the 45-70.
 

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MtJerry;The last few rds. I've fired with the 30 gr. load of 296 and the 300 gr.XTP are on the hot side,I've had a couple of case's that were slighty stuck,and the recoil is more. It wouldn't surprise me if its over 2000 fps. with this hot weather.Also Lik2hunt and I both shot it,and the acuracy was way off. It was a terrible day to shoot because both of us were being eaten alive by horde's of mosquitoes. Digger
 

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I thought I would chime in here on this one...Digger...no disrespect...but...2x the recoil...If that is happening...then something is wrong...I've owned 2 different 444...none in the Handi or Marlin...but ...in that Winchester configuration...and I can plain tell ya...load it up with Hornady's 265 grainers...and it kicks harder than my 300 grain Nosler load from my 1895 Marlin...a-lot of it has to do with stock fit ...but...it kicks and kicks hard...physics is physics...move a big bullet fast...and it will kick no-matter what ...the Winchester's stock is closer to the Handi's dimension than the Marlin...and ...weight was right at 8.5 lbs with a scope...which puts it in line with the Handi's as well....now...1900 fps with a 445SM...I rather doubt it...more closer to 1750 with the 300 grainers I would wager...and then you would be reducing your range even more...even in the 444 Marlin...your still limited to it being a relatively close range rifle....so your going to have to drop down in bullet weight to make up for that...and that brings up salient point...inexspensive pistol bullets SHOULD NOT BE USED ..have a little bit more respect for what your hunting...yes...I know they have been used...but..Elk aren't whitetails...nor can you compare a 200lb hog to a Elk either...since your limited to shooting at closer range...more than likely your going to spook the animal and you'll wind up shooting into the southend of a north bound critter...you got any idea how many inches your bullet will have to traverse to get to the vitals if this happens...I can tell ya this....if I had to chance it...meaning I normally wouldn't...but if I had to...I would be using a premium bullet...or a great gas checked cast bullet...you want deep deep penetration ability...

There are hundreds of people who harvest elk every year at close range with handguns and bows...and I'm not saying you can't with the 445SM...but you and your ammunition better be up to it...give the folks at connelly..Buffalo Bore...or Garrets a call...see what they tell ya...you'll find out what bullets they recommend for a single shot Handi rifle...

Mac
 

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Mac thats exactly why I said use the Rem 240 gr. thats built for the 444,also the 265 gr.Hornady was built for the 444.I'm not recomending the 300 gr. XTP for elk but the 240 or the 265 gr. should be just fine. Check out the new Sierra books for the loads listed for the 445 and this will start making more sense to you. Jph45 and I are both getting 1600 fps.plus with the 300 gr.bullet with 22.5 grs. of H110 in the 44 mag barrels,so it stands to reason that the 445 with 35% more powder will reach the 1900 to 2000 fps range. My chrono may be off but its very close to the Speer manuel specs. When I find some more hogs this winter I know you'll be back down here,and we'll check it with your chrono. Digger
 

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You got it Digger... :D ...

IMHO...if I were to hunt elk...I probably would lean real hard towards the Partitions...if not them...then probably a Cast Performance gas checked bullet...now...if you want to load some of their 300 grainers up and see how they do...let me know...I'll send you some to try out... :toast:

Mac
 

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I guess the Sierra book is next on my list.....thanks. :wink:

Tim
 
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